Was not releasing with CD at launch the biggest mistake Atari made with the Jaguar?

[Keatah]

Maybe the whole industry was rigged. And it was definitely irrationally saturated. Half the consoles released in the 90's were completely unnecessary.

 

Gamers of all kinds wanted more and more. Yet were sticking with their favorite platforms, not expanding much beyond comfort.

 

[Leeroy ST]

16 minutes ago, Keatah said:

Maybe the whole industry was rigged. And it was definitely irrationally saturated. Half the consoles released in the 90's were completely unnecessary.

 

Gamers of all kinds wanted more and more. Yet were sticking with their favorite platforms, not expanding much beyond comfort.

At least consoles had competition necessary or not. Can't say the same for computers.

 

[Pete5125]

6 hours ago, Keatah said:

Maybe the whole industry was rigged. And it was definitely irrationally saturated. Half the consoles released in the 90's were completely unnecessary.

 

Gamers of all kinds wanted more and more. Yet were sticking with their favorite platforms, not expanding much beyond comfort.

 

I mean it wasn't that necessary, 3d0 was expensive same with cdi, and neither offered the same game catalog as sega and Nintendo.

 

We have some crazy thoughts here that exclusives outweigh having standard games, Nintendo had all the major 3rd parties NES was the best place to get them.  Sega was able to make great versions or better versions of what was popular at the time, and convince AAA titles to come over to Sega Genesis on top of that they had exclusive and something that differed themselves from competition /mortal kombat had blood--nintendo didn't.

 

Outside of it all is distribution getting a cdi, basically sears was the only place to carry it.  3d0 was a little easier it was in most electronic stores. Atari was harder it was mainly in video game stores only.

The world was not what it is now, where you can order everything online, more obscure systems even harder, neo geo I never saw anywhere.

 

Price did matter, most wanted john Madden football/mortal kombat/SF2 and a Mario or Sonic game and a few other games genesis/snes had 

[Leeroy ST]

1 hour ago, Pete5125 said:

I mean it wasn't that necessary, 3d0 was expensive same with cdi, and neither offered the same game catalog as sega and Nintendo.

Cdi wasn't a console though and the early professional models came out in 89.

 

I often see these two paired together which was always strange to me.

 

1 hour ago, Pete5125 said:

Price did matter, most wanted john Madden football/mortal kombat/SF2 and a Mario or Sonic game and a few other games genesis/snes had 

I think this only applies to highly expensive consoles since most of the affordable consoles failed, or the consoles that dropped in price the quickest. In either case the middle range consoles were the most successful outside the N64 which cut corners to release at an affordable price after a two year delay, which succeeded. In America.

[ataritiger]

2 hours ago, Pete5125 said:

 

 

Price did matter, most wanted john Madden football/mortal kombat/SF2 and a Mario or Sonic game and a few other games genesis/snes had 

Kind of like now. Just call of duty fornite minecraft madden Spiderman batman etc...but even online its hard find these cheese grader humidifier looking boxes.

[ataritiger]

Cart has no load times, was iron soldier cd better cart? Most jaguar games were rushed with limited to no sound fx or music. Not great 3rd party and company was sinking. Nothing could save it. But a 2600 7800 5200 st adapter might helped sales, better games not an antique 1995 cinepak cd add on even saturn could play vcd by that point..

[pacman000]

On 8/1/2021 at 12:25 AM, Keatah said:

 

So. who or what sets the generation number?

Wikipedia. 

[+madman]

31 minutes ago, ataritiger said:

Nothing could save it. But a 2600 7800 5200 st adapter might helped sales, better games not an antique 1995 cinepak cd add on even saturn could play vcd by that point..

Yeah, nothing would've said "next-gen 64-bit system" like an adapter to play games from the 70s and 80's. 

[Bill Loguidice]

11 hours ago, ataritiger said:

Perhaps it ? was you? I was just hoping it could be true. Like we said just 1 Konami game like Castlevania 95, 1 Capcom game like ssf2turbo, 1 Sega (which legally Sega had to make a Jaguar game maybe virtua racing), 1 Probe MKII Deluxe etc would have went well with the great 10 Jaguar Games like doom, temptest2000, avp, nba jam, wolf3d, rayman etc or my fav fight4life or sequels but either way the jaguar is infamous like dreamcast with so many great things and so many bad things going for it most due to timing, cost and trying stay relevant until ship sank. Actually Atari and Sega went down similarly.

Sorry to bring reality into the equation, but something like that would never and could never happen. Atari's current Jaguar software holdings are surprisingly sparse (as in a fraction of the already small catalog) and there's no scenario where they'd be able to afford to license the third party games, especially the ones with onerous secondary licenses. I don't want to be unkind to anyone's hopes and dreams, but "fever dream" is really not a far off description of that product concept.

A plug and play Jaguar would get a little buzz because it was such an infamous system (fair or not - some of it was and is just piling on). No more than 225,00 made it out in the wild if you count liquidation. If you don't count liquidation and actual prime sales, it only sold around 125,000 units, with its best year being 1994 at 83,000 units sold for the year. Its final year, 1995, was only 25,000 units, with its launch year of 1993, around 17,000 units. For a plug and play to succeed, it has to have mass market appeal. The Jaguar has infamy. That's it. While it's wonderful that the current Jaguar scene is healthy and active, those are vanishingly small numbers compared to what's actually needed to both bring such a plug and play product to market and then have it actually succeed. Of course, not helping matters is the fact that the plug and play market is extremely depressed these days and in a significant down period. You don't bring niche products out into such a market. No retailer would carry it.

For what it's worth, I can tell you there's been an even stronger, far more realistic push for a 3DO plug and play, a system that was far more popular sales-wise back in the day than the Jaguar, but still by no means something fondly remembered by the average person. Despite a strong push and desire, again, there's just no scenario where such a product would or could happen. 

 

Of course, I always have said and always say just because there's zero chance of a mass market retail product, there's ALWAYS a chance where something made by a small team who doesn't need to move big numbers or release a product with wide appeal can produce something that fans in their particular community want on a small scale. That's always the best chance for such things and is why we have, for instance, new Atari Jaguar cartridges being produced to this day. The economics of moving say a few hundred units is workable for them.

[Bill Loguidice]

1 hour ago, Leeroy ST said:

Cdi wasn't a console though and the early professional models came out in 89.

 

I often see these two paired together which was always strange to me.

 

I think this only applies to highly expensive consoles since most of the affordable consoles failed, or the consoles that dropped in price the quickest. In either case the middle range consoles were the most successful outside the N64 which cut corners to release at an affordable price after a two year delay, which succeeded. In America.

While not initially pushed as a console, they DID eventually push the CD-i as a competitive console for a while after the Digital Video cartridge was released. They went on tour to various malls at the US at the time (might have been strictly in association with Electronics Boutique, however) and demonstrated how, for instance, games like The 7th Guest with the DV add-on was as good as or better than what a high-end 486 PC could do at the time. That was basically their pivot when it was clear that it wasn't going to succeed solely as a multimedia platform.

I personally like the CD-i and always have. It offers the best overall multimedia experience of its era and certainly thrives with FMV-based content. It's fun to own today (if you can get a working one) exactly because of this type of content. 

They did a similar tour with the 3DO platform, but on a much grander scale and not affiliated with any particular retail chain. I don't recall Atari ever going on a tour with the Jaguar, although I do remember when I worked at Electronics Boutique at the time that there was a survey that went around to store managers about whether or not they should carry platforms like the CD32, Atari Jaguar, and one other system I don't recall at the moment. I remember being excited for the promise of the Jaguar and encouraged the manager to pick that system on the survey. Little did I/we know that the software drought and other negatives would so badly afflict the platform post launch.

[Goochman]

I think the 3DO is a good example of a console which had AAA title support from EA and didnt surive the XBOX/PS onslaught.  Jag CD from launch would've made things worse since as I understand it programmers lose memory which prob would've made AVP and Doom not viable.

[ataritiger]

1 hour ago, madman said:

Yeah, nothing would've said "next-gen 64-bit system" like an adapter to play games from the 70s and 80's. 

Like 7800 playing 2600 games genesis launching with master system adapter ps2 playing ps1 games lol snes playing gb oh man you missed the point...keep your ecosystem i would have loved a 7800 adapter for my jag that 1000 2600 7800 games I could play when I'm tired of avp doom etc galaga memory lane existed then. Maybe add a lynx cart adapter. 

 

To Bill, fair enough but the tg16 is very niche mini imo but it still released. I see many people asking for dc and jaguar mini not 3do mini with its vast good games of 1) road rash and 2) ssf2t

 

 

Edited August 2, 2021 by ataritiger

[ataritiger]

45 minutes ago, Goochman said:

I think the 3DO is a good example of a console which had AAA title support from EA and didnt surive the XBOX/PS onslaught.  Jag CD from launch would've made things worse since as I understand it programmers lose memory which prob would've made AVP and Doom not viable.

Atari was dead by time ps1 in prime or ps2 or xbox arrived

[Bill Loguidice]

10 minutes ago, ataritiger said:

To Bill, fair enough but the tg16 is very niche mini imo but it still released. I see many people asking for dc and jaguar mini not 3do mini with its vast good games of 1) road rash and 2) ssf2t

 

 

It was still exponentially more popular than the Jaguar. The only reason why we got a TG-16 Mini is because of the PC Engine's popularity in Japan. Either way, it was still limited release. Again, even if there were a way to get even a small fraction of the games mentioned in that fantasy post, there's NOTHING to help boost the sales of or justify the existence of a Jaguar Mini except notoriety.

[zzip]

On 8/1/2021 at 1:25 AM, Keatah said:

So. who or what sets the generation number?

Seems like everyone agrees with what Wikipedia says it is.    Even though it's provably wrong ?

 

21 hours ago, Leeroy ST said:

now and use Vgchartz, an unreliable source many sites ban usage of. Hmmmmm.

Ah VGchartz-  the Schrodinger's cat of videogame tracking.   As soon as people don't like what it says, they accuse it of being a hack site that makes up data.

 

Here's the thing..   The best sales data is proprietary and not publically available, such as NPD.   You have to pay lots of money to get access to the data and aren't allowed to release it.   VGchartz tries to use various sources of publically available data to make the best estimates they can, and will revise their data as more information becomes available.   Is it perfect?  No!  But it's often the best data we have publically available.

[+madman]

46 minutes ago, ataritiger said:

i would have loved a 7800 adapter for my jag that 1000 2600 7800 games I could play when I'm tired of avp doom etc galaga memory lane existed then.

Your logic is flawless.

[ataritiger]

1 hour ago, madman said:

Your logic is flawless.

Yes it is which is why most successful systems had backward compatibility there was a retro scene in 1994 too...buying ninja golf for a $1 at flea market to laugh and play would been worth it in the middle of my doom and avp sessions.

 

To Bill, one word...money. A guy here owns atari shells now, scale that by 1/4 in cheap China plant for guy who owns atari vcs 2020 who has alot different companies games on vcs too btw to make 1000 jag mini with 5 bonus games pitfall2 2600 ninja golf 7800 pacman 5200 ninja gaiden lynx and a cd game with the top 20 jag games and everyone will make money, current shell royalities, atari owner etc. 1000×$100 batch at first, do the math. It'll sell out even if just sold here in a week. Keep doing it. Big money. Same reason att paid more to release snyder jl...more money ? 

Edited August 2, 2021 by ataritiger

[Bill Loguidice]

25 minutes ago, ataritiger said:

To Bill, one word...money. A guy here owns atari shells now, scale that by 1/4 in cheap China plant for guy who owns atari vcs 2020 who has alot different companies games on vcs too btw to make 1000 jag mini with 5 bonus games pitfall2 2600 ninja golf 7800 pacman 5200 ninja gaiden lynx and a cd game with the top 20 jag games and everyone will make money, current shell royalities, atari owner etc. 1000×$100 batch at first, do the math. It'll sell out even if just sold here in a week. Keep doing it. Big money. Same reason att paid more to release snyder jl...more money ? 

None of what you indicate is available to license like that. It's OK to dream, but if you want to state something like you're stating, it would be nice to consider how the real world actually works if you want it to be anything beyond a fantasy.

[ataritiger]

1 minute ago, Bill Loguidice said:

None of what you indicate is available to license like that. It's OK to dream, but if you want to state something like you're stating, it would be nice to consider how the real world actually works if you want it to be anything beyond a fantasy.

Really because snyder cut was released. Multi company 2600 etc games are on 2020 vcs. Etc. You can't negate math esp when its green going into someone's pants. Tg16 mini was super niche and sold out basically quick, I think 5000 sold in usa in a month. I bet jaguar mini would and what companies even still exist? Avp creator was who? You think I'd software will say no to doom or wolf3d on jag mini what other mini it on? Come on man...think outside the ? look at how wrong those snyder cut jl and tg16 mini haters were wrong now

[+Stephen]

The fumes are strong with this one.  I think maybe some gold paint got mixed in with the plastic fumes.

[Bill Loguidice]

17 minutes ago, ataritiger said:

Really because snyder cut was released. Multi company 2600 etc games are on 2020 vcs. Etc. You can't negate math esp when its green going into someone's pants. Tg16 mini was super niche and sold out basically quick, I think 5000 sold in usa in a month. I bet jaguar mini would and what companies even still exist? Avp creator was who? You think I'd software will say no to doom or wolf3d on jag mini what other mini it on? Come on man...think outside the ? look at how wrong those snyder cut jl and tg16 mini haters were wrong now

I'll try one last time with you, although what I indicated earlier went into much more detail. Even if you have all the other rights, working emulation at a reasonable cost, etc.,  a game like Alien vs Predator, for instance, has multiple licenses that need to be acquired. There's no way that the Alien vs Predator IP holder, the one that licenses it out for comics, movies, and other properties, will let it go for peanuts. 

 

You keep bringing up Atari Vault and Atari Flashback Classics (we had a heck of a time filling volume 3, which is why third party stuff is in there that was not from Atari). That's almost the complete present-day Atari holdings for the Atari 2600, 5200, and arcade stuff. They have a handful of other games for Atari 8-bit, Lynx, and Jaguar, but far fewer than you might think. They also have zero third party software, so again, all of that would need to be licensed and it's not as easy as just wanting it. I can tell you from direct experience with this stuff. Some fees are exorbitant and some IP is convuluted to the point of making it all but impossible to license. 

 

I also explained why the PC Engine/TG-16 happened. To think that the Atari Jaguar is anywhere near the same appeal as that relatively modest platform is frankly delusional and demonstrates a clear misunderstanding of simple numbers and markets, as well as how difficult it is to actually license stuff and then get reasonable distribution. It's just not going to happen with a Jaguar Mini. Period. I'm sure eventually someone can do an unlicensed homebrew system and let users add their own games, but that's nowhere near the same thing.

[Lostdragon]

Just out of curiosity, what are the sources for the number of units AVP sold on the Jaguar? 

 

 

I've seen numbers quoted in the Jaguar supplement Atari paid Edge to produce, but i am inclined to take them with a pinch of salt. 

 

Jason Kingsley another industry figure who prefers to tell a good story, than an accurate one, wouldn't give figures when Retrogamer Magazine interviewed him, just talked about an attachment ratio, think he claimed 84% of Jaguar owners bought it. 

 

But that claim in itself is open to scrutiny, does he mean UK owners?  or global owners?. 

[ataritiger]

10 minutes ago, Lostdragon said:

Just out of curiosity, what are the sources for the number of units AVP sold on the Jaguar? 

 

 

I've seen numbers quoted in the Jaguar supplement Atari paid Edge to produce, but i am inclined to take them with a pinch of salt. 

 

Jason Kingsley another industry figure who prefers to tell a good story, than an accurate one, wouldn't give figures when Retrogamer Magazine interviewed him, just talked about an attachment ratio, think he claimed 84% of Jaguar owners bought it. 

 

But that claim in itself is open to scrutiny, does he mean UK owners?  or global owners?. 

I quoted wiki 50000 to 85000 or voice ask Google you'll see 85000 who made it i forget 

[ataritiger]

23 minutes ago, Stephen said:

The fumes are strong with this one.  I think maybe some gold paint got mixed in with the plastic fumes.

Negativity is strong with ^

[Arcadia]

1 hour ago, ataritiger said:

You think I'd software will say no to doom or wolf3d on jag mini what other mini it on? Come on man...think outside the ? 

You mean Id Software, which is now owned by Microsoft, the company behind Xbox?