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Footage of cornhole prototype

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3 hours ago, MrBeefy said:

Yeah it might as well just use a button like Mario Golf at that point. Speed and tilt should be enough to give you the arc of the throw. Darts on Clubhouse Games functions that way. 

Well hey maybe the CEO can just dial up the big N and get some insight on how to make a simple & fun cornhole game 😉

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Posted (edited)

To be fair, I don't mind the new controls since I'm a hardcore gamer. I think "one to one" motion controls have always been some kind of utopy anyway; it works for some kind of games (like Beat Saber for instance) of course, but that's also why many gamers didn't like Skyward Sword... Remember that in Wii Bowling, you were not just wagging the controller; you had to set your position first with the d-pad. And I don't think the original Wiimote was very precise anyway; Nintendo teams just managed to (most of the time) find the right balance that gives you the impression the game recreates your movement. But there are also several Nintendo games in which it doesn't work that well, especially when the game registers your backward motion to give momentum...

 

Now I agree with Pat it could hurt the interest of the game for casual gamers, but it could make the game more fun for (moderately) hardcore gamers. Even though that was not their goal of course...

Edited by roots.genoa
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On 7/29/2021 at 8:26 PM, MarioMan88 said:

Well hey maybe the CEO can just dial up the big N and get some insight on how to make a simple & fun cornhole game 😉

Doesn't even need to go that far. Just talk to NDcube. They made CG51 for Switch and has done Mario Party games. So they should be very familiar with some motion controls.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/NDcube

 

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17 hours ago, roots.genoa said:

Remember that in Wii Bowling, you were not just wagging the controller; you had to set your position first with the d-pad. 

I think one of the weird things is that in Cornhole you have your spot. You don't adjust you position like you do in Bowling. In Cornhole you always stand in the same spot and don't ever really move enough to justify that much movement in what should be a simple game. Really it should be only about adjusting your throw. You should always be aiming for the hole.

 

The only thing you should really try to do differently is how much arc and how hard. Which should be determined by tilt and speed. Bags don't curve like bowling balls so the tilt should be more about how "off center" you toss.

 

Cornhole is a very accessible game with a low entry barrier. This games looks more complex than playing an actual game of Cornhole and that totally defeats the purpose. These adjustments of where you are standing and adjusting arc is making the game more complex than a real life game.

 

 

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Posted (edited)
18 hours ago, roots.genoa said:

 Remember that in Wii Bowling, you were not just wagging the controller; you had to set your position first with the d-pad. And I don't think the original Wiimote was very precise anyway; Nintendo teams just managed to (most of the time) find the right balance that gives you the impression the game recreates your movement. 

 

Now I agree with Pat it could hurt the interest of the game for casual gamers, but it could make the game more fun for (moderately) hardcore gamers. Even though that was not their goal of course...

But in wii bowling you didn't need to adjust your position.  If you needed to you just used the dpad and it was simple.  Here it looks much more complicated with angles and all that where you should just be able to toss a beanbag.  It's the simplest thing and could have been fun for families and non gamers. Appealing to hardcore gamers with cornhole doesn't sound like a good strategy. 

 

The part about the wiimote not being accurate was very telling.  It didn't need to be accurate cause they did such a good job with programming wii bowling it just felt right and was accessible to everyone. It doesn't matter how accurate the amico controllers are it just matters how they can make them feel accurate and easy to use.  So far it seems they are failing with cornhole. 

Edited by jbrodack
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1 hour ago, MrBeefy said:

I think one of the weird things is that in Cornhole you have your spot. You don't adjust you position like you do in Bowling.

I was just giving an example. What I meant is a lot of games based on motion control include settings with buttons.

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1 hour ago, jbrodack said:

But in wii bowling you didn't need to adjust your position.

No but I did, because I tend to throw slightly to the left. ;)

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5 hours ago, MrBeefy said:

I think one of the weird things is that in Cornhole you have your spot. You don't adjust you position like you do in Bowling. In Cornhole you always stand in the same spot and don't ever really move enough to justify that much movement in what should be a simple game. Really it should be only about adjusting your throw. You should always be aiming for the hole.

 

The only thing you should really try to do differently is how much arc and how hard. Which should be determined by tilt and speed. Bags don't curve like bowling balls so the tilt should be more about how "off center" you toss.

 

Cornhole is a very accessible game with a low entry barrier. This games looks more complex than playing an actual game of Cornhole and that totally defeats the purpose. These adjustments of where you are standing and adjusting arc is making the game more complex than a real life game.

 

 

Excellent points! We had a local fella make us some cornhole boards few years back when it was all the rage. Simple concept, lots of refinement on your time toss. I still suck at playing but it’s fun. 

 

I too found the changes odd INTV made. I always stand in same spot when playing, so not sure why they changed it on their version of the game. I’m not a pro cornhole player nor game developer. I just know what was shown prior looked good and it was game I was mkst excited about playing with my family. Now, looks confusing and more than “pick up and play”

 

Again, they are trying to change it to be more fun and kudos to them. We won’t know till we play it. Let’s hope it’s soon!

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In the original Amico Cornhole it was assumed you're aiming at the hole and your position was fixed.  Well in a real cornhole game you aim in front of the hole to slide into the hole or you may throw over another bag sitting on the board or aim directly at another bag, you might change your position to throw around the bag.  The new Amico Cornhole has those options and it's very straightforward using the touchscreen.  Wii bowling also has similar options to position the bowler and adjust aim angle but it's a little more complicated in Wii Bowling and most people probably leave the default aim.  You could just use the default position and aim in Amico Cornhole as well.

 

In Wii Bowling the vertical loft isn't controlled by the throw motion either.  It's determined by timing of the button relative to the onscreen character animation.  This was the main change with Amico Cornhole; originally, vertical angle was determined by throwing motion and the changes made it much easier and more accurate to set that angle. With the new version that angle is simply set onscreen by moving the controller up/down.  In the original version, they had to calculate and track the relative position of the controller in 3D space which was problematic.  The changes makes throwing much more reliable and eliminates frustration players might get learning to master the throw mechanics.  They could also have a default angle and more casual players can just throw without adjusting the angle.

 

As far as Wii Bowling compensating for controller inaccuracy through programming; I've heard comments that Wii Bowling uses preprogrammed outcomes based on inputs; and they don't want to do that with Amico.  Yes they've added a few straightforward options for aiming in Amico Cornhole but there's no reason you can't have defaults and the player just throws.

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Cornhole should not be more complicated than bowling. To suggest or act like it should be is absurd. Literally anyone with working arms can toss a bag in a semi straight line. Not everyone can make a bowling ball break, or pick up a 7-11 split.

 

A game that should have been as simple as push button, swing, let go of button is now a multistep process that makes it less pick up and play.

 

This is a great example of making it simple. You know how you pick your position? Motion. You know how your arc is determined? Angle and speed. Also you only have to hit the button to set it up. No need to even let go of the button so way more simple controls. No excuses of magnetometers needed.

 

 

 

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Posted (edited)

In the updated Amico cornhole, the arc is controlled by the speed of throw.  The faster the throw the larger the arc and it overshoots, a slower throw gets a smaller arc and undershoots.  I expect Clubhouse Darts is similar.  I don't see any evidence that Clubhouse darts tracks the throwing angle other than the initial aim; and there's no reason to have different throwing angles in darts like you would in cornhole.  For example if you're aiming for triple twenty, why should you need to have one shot with high arc and another with a shallow arc. 

 

People are saying something is complicated without having tried it.  The aiming scheme looks intuitive to me and if you don't want to throw cornhole bags at different angles I don't see why there wouldn't be a default angle and go straight to throwing.

Edited by mr_me

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On 7/29/2021 at 9:26 PM, MarioMan88 said:

Well hey maybe the CEO can just dial up the big N and get some insight on how to make a simple & fun cornhole game 😉

Nintendo will hit him with a Cease and Desist.

 

On everything!

 

Nintendo has games -- "C&D making games"

Nintendo has a CEO -- "C&D being CEO"

Nintendo has motion controls -- "C&D all motion controls!"

 

 

 

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39 minutes ago, mr_me said:

In the updated Amico cornhole, the arc is controlled by the speed of throw.  The faster the throw the larger the arc and it overshoots, a slower throw gets a smaller arc and undershoots.  I expect Clubhouse Darts is similar.  I don't see any evidence that Clubhouse darts tracks the throwing angle other than the initial aim; and there's no reason to have different throwing angles in darts like you would in cornhole.  For example if you're aiming for triple twenty, why should you need to have one shot with high arc and another with a shallow arc. 

 

People are saying something is complicated without having tried it.  The aiming scheme looks intuitive to me and if you don't want to throw cornhole bags at different angles I don't see why there wouldn't be a default angle and go straight to throwing.

You haven't really played darts have you? You totally need to aim for more than triple 20s. If you have 14 left you have to hit the double 7 (bottom left of the board).

 

You haven't played CG darts either have you? It is literally cornhole but thrown overhand instead of under. Except in darts there is a need to actually aim at something other than the center. It is all based on motion.

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Sorry for being childish, but whenever I see this subject pop up in my Activity feed I can't help and think of...

 

 

A different kind of nostalgia :)

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34 minutes ago, MrBeefy said:

You haven't really played darts have you? You totally need to aim for more than triple 20s. If you have 14 left you have to hit the double 7 (bottom left of the board).

 

You haven't played CG darts either have you? It is literally cornhole but thrown overhand instead of under. Except in darts there is a need to actually aim at something other than the center. It is all based on motion.

I used triple twenty as an example.  Take any point on a dart board and aim.  Now there is no reason to hit that point with a high angle or a shallow angle and I wouldn't expect the game to give you that option.  With cornhole you might want to throw a blocker bag using a high angle so it doesn't slide.  Or you might want to knock through another bag on the board and use a shallow angle.  If the board is clear you might aim in front of the hole and slide in.  If someone placed a blocker you might aim at the hole, or adjust your position and throw around the other bag.

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On 7/31/2021 at 3:00 AM, roots.genoa said:

No but I did, because I tend to throw slightly to the left. ;)

I'd throw to the right.  But typically position is all you'd have to adjust. Very few people ever touched the angle of the bowler.  This seems to be at least as complicated as changing the bowler angle when it should be simple. 

 

It's funny how Tommy purposely avoids saying complexity in the video and says the new controls add a layer of.... "fun".   Cause he knows complexity wouldn't sit well with the market he's targeting. 

 

It's weird how stripped down the video is considering its a pack in game that was supposed to have been ready for a while. I'm all for seeing prototypes of brand new games but it's odd how early this looks despite not being new. The changes might actually be good but hard to tell if it will be fun seeing as you don't get any zoom in or showing the physics once the bags hit. Maybe they should have waited to patch the game later or saved this for a Cornhole 2022.  But it seems they determined that the motion controls just weren't working.  Though I have no idea why they just realized it now.   

 

Hopefully they keep showing progress and showing it integrated into fully graphical gameplay. 

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I do hope the final result will still offer a simplified gameplay approach... Each turn should be able to be completed quickly and casually with a simple hand toss even if that requires the program to interpolate some aspects automaticaly.

 

At 3:43 in the E3 video you can see how quick and simplistic the turns are in that demonstration. One toss can be completed within 3 seconds, which is how the game naturally plays in real life with very fast-paced, easy turns.

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On 7/31/2021 at 1:04 PM, mr_me said:

I used triple twenty as an example.  Take any point on a dart board and aim.  Now there is no reason to hit that point with a high angle or a shallow angle and I wouldn't expect the game to give you that option.  With cornhole you might want to throw a blocker bag using a high angle so it doesn't slide.  Or you might want to knock through another bag on the board and use a shallow angle.  If the board is clear you might aim in front of the hole and slide in.  If someone placed a blocker you might aim at the hole, or adjust your position and throw around the other bag.

So you haven't played CG darts?

 

A shallow throw or launching it would be based on the angle of your dart/bag and the speed of motion. If you are wanting to hit certain parts of the boards that may require you to loft more or throw more shallow. All determined by launch angle and speed.

 

You "adjusting your position" is guess what? Tilting the controller and speed of movement. Should be the same in Cornhole without all the extra fluff. Its physics. Here is a lesson for 5th and 6th graders if interested. https://www.nsta.org/science-scope/science-scope-mayjune-2021/cornhole-predicts-perfect-pitch

 

Notice how they talk about angle of pitch and speed. If CG Darts can do all of that without needing more than a button and motion. If they can't do the same with cornhole that is kind of lame. All of the landing on the boards can be done by angles and speed. Not sure why this is so hard to grasp. The controller has an accelerometer and gyroscope. That is all you need to determine launch angle and speed. Not sure why their controllers are struggling with this.

Screenshot_20210802-010415_Chrome.thumb.jpg.87488a3ad823291ca4819ac51450173c.jpg

 

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I did say a strong throw will overshoot your target and a weak throw will undershoot, velocity affecting the trajectory; for both Amico cornhole and Clubhouse darts.  Yes, in Clubhouse darts you aim/target a point on the board before the throw with motion control, e.g. tilt the controller.  In the computer model it can either move the launch position up/down or adjust the launch angle, doesn't matter which but based on the animation it's moving the launch position.  Either way, for that target, the launch angle can be now be fixed; throw velocity from the user changes the trajectory, high/low relative to the target.  In Amico cornhole for any given target on the board, you have the option to have a different launch angle, reasons explained earlier.  That is an extra user input parameter in addition to selecting a target on the board.  That parameter is selected by motion control in the updated Amico cornhole just as a target is selected by motion control in Clubhouse Darts.  Both are using throwing motion to determine velocity, neither is using throwing motion to track a launch angle, and cornhole has an extra user input parameter to deal with because it's a different game.

 

Thinking about this more, another option in Cornhole is to use three fixed launch angles.  One standard/optimal angle, one high, and one low.  The computer only needs to estimate one of three options from the throw rather than trying to precisely track the launch angle in 3D space.  If it can do that reliably than the throw motion takes care of two user inputs rather than one.

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On 7/31/2021 at 12:20 PM, youxia said:

Sorry for being childish, but whenever I see this subject pop up in my Activity feed I can't help and think of...

 

 

A different kind of nostalgia :)

Beavis and Butt-Head.  Great stuff!

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6 hours ago, mr_me said:

I did say a strong throw will overshoot your target and a weak throw will undershoot, velocity affecting the trajectory; for both Amico cornhole and Clubhouse darts.  Yes, in Clubhouse darts you aim/target a point on the board before the throw with motion control, e.g. tilt the controller.  In the computer model it can either move the launch position up/down or adjust the launch angle, doesn't matter which but based on the animation it's moving the launch position.  Either way, for that target, the launch angle can be now be fixed; throw velocity from the user changes the trajectory, high/low relative to the target.  In Amico cornhole for any given target on the board, you have the option to have a different launch angle, reasons explained earlier.  That is an extra user input parameter in addition to selecting a target on the board.  That parameter is selected by motion control in the updated Amico cornhole just as a target is selected by motion control in Clubhouse Darts.  Both are using throwing motion to determine velocity, neither is using throwing motion to track a launch angle, and cornhole has an extra user input parameter to deal with because it's a different game.

 

Thinking about this more, another option in Cornhole is to use three fixed launch angles.  One standard/optimal angle, one high, and one low.  The computer only needs to estimate one of three options from the throw rather than trying to precisely track the launch angle in 3D space.  If it can do that reliably than the throw motion takes care of two user inputs rather than one.

Are you an IE employee? You seem to have a lot of information about new and old cornhole. Have you tried both?

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6 hours ago, mr_me said:

...

Thinking about this more, another option in Cornhole is to use three fixed launch angles.  One standard/optimal angle, one high, and one low.  The computer only needs to estimate one of three options from the throw rather than trying to precisely track the launch angle in 3D space.  If it can do that reliably than the throw motion takes care of two user inputs rather than one.

This last point is my own idea, I should have said possible option.  It's not something I saw in the video or heard discussed in an interview.

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10 hours ago, Yarzzz said:

Are you an IE employee? You seem to have a lot of information about new and old cornhole. Have you tried both?

 

10 hours ago, mr_me said:

This last point is my own idea, I should have said possible option.  It's not something I saw in the video or heard discussed in an interview.

That isn't a denial of that possibility! 🤣

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5 hours ago, MrBeefy said:

That isn't a denial of that possibility! 🤣

They haven't opened an office in Canada and the CFO denied paying internet commenters.

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