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jerseystyle

I’m sorry, I still am very confused by this Cornhole situation. Would love to hear other perspectives.

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So I have been a huge supporter of Cornhole since day one. During the ebb and flow of the past two years the Cornhole game kept me positive. I loved Wii Bowling, Let’s Catch, etc, and was pumped for a spiritual successor. I’ve said before that I would buy an Amico for Cornhole if it ruled, and I stand by that. All that being said, that new video, and the answers to questions about it, have me concerned. Here are my issues:

1) controls don’t look like the gaming shown in the promo videos, where it was implied it was entirely motion based. When this was brought up, the response was the Wii Bowling wasn’t entirely motion based either. Fair enough, but that was 15 years ago. Tech hasn’t advanced? We have been told (and people playing Amico have said) that the controller is a game changer. In what way? Why did Tommy say that cell phones were fine but the controller wasn’t able to play the original version of the game? What do the phones have that the controller doesn’t? 
2) If this is a launch game and the Amico hadn’t  been delayed, what would this game have played like? Why would we wait this long to start these changes? 
3) I get using extra time caused by the delay to tweak games, but this three point adjustment system just doesn’t look fun to me, and after watching the video multiple times I’m less convinced I’m going to enjoy it. Has this game been played by anyone objective (i.e, anyone who doesn’t describe Finnegan Fox as “jaw dropping”)? Was their feedback on the former version posted anywhere I can read?

 

Like I said, I was pumped for the game and am now feeling pretty down on the whole thing. And please, don’t reply with “it isn’t made for you.”, haha. I was looking forward to playing that game with my 5 year old.

 

As an aside, will Amico be sending out systems to journalists like Playdate did? This may go along way to restoring some hype. Many of those outlets had concerns about Playdate but I appreciated their feedback and plan on ordering the system based mostly on the feedback they received.

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Posted (edited)

There was a recent podcast with their Software Technical Director, and he talks about Amico Cornhole around the 1h:12m mark.

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=SLYu5TZMHwg&pp=sAQA

 

It seems that gyroscopes and accelerometers provide poor data to reliably calculate the relative position of the controller in 3D space.  They mentioned gyroscope drift.  The magnetometer that exists in phones but not the controller provides more data and improves the reliability of those calculations.  So they decided to implement a more reliable aiming technique, making it easier to aim, allowing players to focus on playing cornhole rather than mastering the mechanics of the throw.  The new technique uses the touchscreen to aim for a spot on the board and motion control to select a vertical angle by tilting the controller. The throw is still used to determine distance accuracy and horizontal accuracy.

 

They didn't just start these changes, the new control technique is done and is being inserted into the game if it hasn't already.  I'm really curious to know how the original played, it sounds like it's very difficult to aim and might have a bit of a learning curve.  Don't know if they are leaving it in as an option.

 

As far as focus group testing, I'd guess the original game got lots of testing since it's been ready for a while.  It's a good question regarding focus group testing this new version.

 

I'm not sure how much hype they would want to create in the near future.  If they do manufacture units for this fall it sounds like it might not be enough to fulfill the preorders they currently have.

 

Edited by mr_me

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This sums up the gameplay control of cornhole.

 

 

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3 hours ago, jerseystyle said:

 

1) controls don’t look like the gaming shown in the promo videos, where it was implied it was entirely motion based. When this was brought up, the response was the Wii Bowling wasn’t entirely motion based either. Fair enough, but that was 15 years ago. Tech hasn’t advanced? 

 

As an aside, will Amico be sending out systems to journalists like Playdate did? This may go along way to restoring some hype. Many of those outlets had concerns about Playdate but I appreciated their feedback and plan on ordering the system based mostly on the feedback they received.

Yeah I'm disappointed that it requires more work to play than even Wii Bowling and resembles more of how a golf game would play. Arc shouldn't need to be selected as angle and speed would determine that. Clubhouse Games Darts utilizes motion. The angle you hold the joycon and speed you move it forward determines the arc. Last time I checked the joycons don't have magnetometers and the darts game is the same except you throw overhand instead of underhand.

 

This seems to be more of a game design issue possibly. Unless the controllers are just that bad with motion controls.

 

 

I also think they need to get some review units out to journalists like Playdate. Playdate has been doing some things right as they've sold over 20,000 already. Journalist hands on reviews would be good.

 

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3 hours ago, jerseystyle said:

We have been told (and people playing Amico have said) that the controller is a game changer. In what way? 

Game changer as in - you play Cornhole with it, you'll quickly change the game.  😀

 

Joking aside, for those of who are looking forward to Cornhole, I really hope they make it great.

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Posted (edited)
9 hours ago, MrBeefy said:

Yeah I'm disappointed that it requires more work to play than even Wii Bowling and resembles more of how a golf game would play. Arc shouldn't need to be selected as angle and speed would determine that. Clubhouse Games Darts utilizes motion. The angle you hold the joycon and speed you move it forward determines the arc. Last time I checked the joycons don't have magnetometers and the darts game is the same except you throw overhand instead of underhand.

 

...

 

In Wii bowling you set the position and aim angle before you throw, not unlike the updated Amico Cornhole.  It was multiple button presses in Wii Bowling and most people just skipped it, where it's just swiping the touchscreen with Amico Cornhole.  In Wii Bowling, loft is determined by timing the button with the character animation, not unlike controlling hook/slice in typical golf games.

 

With the dart game if the throw angle is determined by the angle the controller is held that's not a throw motion.  It should calculate relative positions in space to determine the direction the dart is being thrown.  For example if you start and end your throw at the same elevation you are throwing horizontally.  If you end your throw higher than you started, you are throwing at an upward angle.  The orientation of the controller doesn't determine this.  Can you actually control the throw angle, or is there a default and you're outcome is either high or low based on your throw speed.  I can see you aim by positioning an onscreen dart graphic but that's something else.

Edited by mr_me
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Frankly, for anyone that genuinely believed a controller that could be swapped with a cell phone is a "game changer," I've got oceanfront property in Arizona to sell you. (Nothing specific against Amico on this one, that's just typical sales bluster, they aren't the only ones who do that.)

 

Of course I don't also desperately try to put out the persona of Poochie from The Simpsons, but I can try my hardest. (This one however, yeah, that's specific.)

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Posted (edited)

The Amico phone app can emulate an Amico controller just like other phone apps can emulate a playstation controller but it's only recommended for certain types of games.  So no, it can't replace the Amico controller.

 

I know some youtubers used the term "game changer" when talking about the Amico controller but did anyone from Intellivision Entertainment say it?  They do say the controller is more approachable to non-gamers; letting them use the direction pad with their right thumb is one simple example that makes a big difference to some people.  There is potential for unique gameplay experiences but that's up to the game designers to create.

Edited by mr_me

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2 hours ago, Cebus Capucinis said:

Frankly, for anyone that genuinely believed a controller that could be swapped with a cell phone is a "game changer," I've got oceanfront property in Arizona to sell you. (Nothing specific against Amico on this one, that's just typical sales bluster, they aren't the only ones who do that.)

 

Of course I don't also desperately try to put out the persona of Poochie from The Simpsons, but I can try my hardest. (This one however, yeah, that's specific.)


Wii and Switch was game changers.

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2 hours ago, Cebus Capucinis said:

I've got oceanfront property in Arizona to sell you.

I'm interested!    Recent studies show that about 7.2 million people in Arizona have no convenient access to the ocean in their home state.   I buy that property, I could corner the "Arizona Beach Vacation" market!!  $$$

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Cornhole would have probably been way better if Amico had a Trackball controller option.

 

 

TB1.jpg

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18 hours ago, jerseystyle said:

So I have been a huge supporter of Cornhole since day one. During the ebb and flow of the past two years the Cornhole game kept me positive. I loved Wii Bowling, Let’s Catch, etc, and was pumped for a spiritual successor. I’ve said before that I would buy an Amico for Cornhole if it ruled, and I stand by that. All that being said, that new video, and the answers to questions about it, have me concerned. Here are my issues:

1) controls don’t look like the gaming shown in the promo videos, where it was implied it was entirely motion based. When this was brought up, the response was the Wii Bowling wasn’t entirely motion based either. Fair enough, but that was 15 years ago. Tech hasn’t advanced? We have been told (and people playing Amico have said) that the controller is a game changer. In what way? Why did Tommy say that cell phones were fine but the controller wasn’t able to play the original version of the game? What do the phones have that the controller doesn’t? 
2) If this is a launch game and the Amico hadn’t  been delayed, what would this game have played like? Why would we wait this long to start these changes? 
3) I get using extra time caused by the delay to tweak games, but this three point adjustment system just doesn’t look fun to me, and after watching the video multiple times I’m less convinced I’m going to enjoy it. Has this game been played by anyone objective (i.e, anyone who doesn’t describe Finnegan Fox as “jaw dropping”)? Was their feedback on the former version posted anywhere I can read?

 

Like I said, I was pumped for the game and am now feeling pretty down on the whole thing. And please, don’t reply with “it isn’t made for you.”, haha. I was looking forward to playing that game with my 5 year old.

 

As an aside, will Amico be sending out systems to journalists like Playdate did? This may go along way to restoring some hype. Many of those outlets had concerns about Playdate but I appreciated their feedback and plan on ordering the system based mostly on the feedback they received.

This video explains how the Switch and Amico have less motion controller accuracy than the Wii remote. The smart phones have a magnetometer that is an absolute reference like a compass, which adds more positional data the JoyCon and Amico controller don't have, like the Wii Sensor bar. If you watch the Bags game Rev posted above, it look like it always has the same arc, so it looks like it was just left out. Cornhole still has the horizontal, twist/hook and force motion controls that Wii bowling had. You can see in the video where Tommy says his throw was off because he didn't throw straight. In the Switch Darts game mentioned above you set lob by holding the controller at an angle, which is a preset as far as I can tell.

 

As you can see, even though the Switch and Amico can read angle and speed data, large sweeping motions cause gyroscope drift and throw off the precision significantly.

 

 

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1 hour ago, Bonkey Kong said:

Cornhole would have probably been way better if Amico had a Trackball controller option.

They could do something very similar by swiping on the touchscreen.  They could put it in the existing game as an option replacing the throw mechanic for those that don't want to use motion control.

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2 hours ago, Bonkey Kong said:

 

 

Cornhole would have probably been way better if Amico had a Trackball controller option.

 

 

TB1.jpg

I'm not sure what you see this replacing. If it's the throw motion, you could use the disk as well, since it is pressure sensitive. Although, I could see it being used like in Golden Tee. I think the 5200 Curling Homebrew may use it as well. I would have picked a Trackball that wasn't joystick mode only, though.

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Posted (edited)
On 7/30/2021 at 9:11 PM, jerseystyle said:

Fair enough, but that was 15 years ago. Tech hasn’t advanced?

 

Ever notice the D-pad on your XBox controller looks an awful lot like the joystick on the 2600 when you take them both apart?  That was 45 years ago!  What does your new, optical mouse do that an old 80s track ball does not?  Not a whole hell of a lot.

 

Basically, an input device holds a bunch of variables in memory depending on what you're doing to it, that can be read and used to do gameplay stuff.  That's pretty much it.  An accelerometer and gyroscope are going to give you X, Y, and Z axis rates of motion, and then orientation on those same axes. 

 

So, you've got 6 variables, and from the rates of change to those, you have to infer what specific motions are being done player, and then have to do all kinds of complicated math to translate that into an on-screen game result.  

 

Aside from getting more accurate and granular, those instruments can't give you more information, and they're going to work that way forever the same way a microswitch that tells you whether the player is pushing up works basically the same way as it did 45 years ago.

 

Mostion control games that don't rely on those kinds of push-button fudging, and which don't use big, expensive VR or camera setups just ain't gonna' happen any time in the near future.  Get used to playing games like this for a while.

Edited by MrTrust

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On 7/31/2021 at 3:52 PM, Swami said:

This video explains how the Switch and Amico have less motion controller accuracy than the Wii remote. The smart phones have a magnetometer that is an absolute reference like a compass, which adds more positional data the JoyCon and Amico controller don't have, like the Wii Sensor bar. If you watch the Bags game Rev posted above, it look like it always has the same arc, so it looks like it was just left out. Cornhole still has the horizontal, twist/hook and force motion controls that Wii bowling had. You can see in the video where Tommy says his throw was off because he didn't throw straight. In the Switch Darts game mentioned above you set lob by holding the controller at an angle, which is a preset as far as I can tell.

 

As you can see, even though the Switch and Amico can read angle and speed data, large sweeping motions cause gyroscope drift and throw off the precision significantly.

 

 

I do feel like bowling in clubhouse games isn't nearly as good as wii bowling and motion games on switch aren't as good.  The sensor bar really was needed. 

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7 minutes ago, jbrodack said:

I do feel like bowling in clubhouse games isn't nearly as good as wii bowling and motion games on switch aren't as good.  The sensor bar really was needed. 

It's a puzzle to me why neither has a magnetometer, like the cell phones. It's like Intellivision copied the JoyCon rather than the phone. I hope they also include the more advanced smart phone compatible versions with magnetometer capability are included with motion games, since you can use a smart phone with them. Somehow, I doubt it, though.

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Posted (edited)
On 7/31/2021 at 8:55 AM, mr_me said:

 

In Wii bowling you set the position and aim angle before you throw, not unlike the updated Amico Cornhole.  It was multiple button presses in Wii Bowling and most people just skipped it, where it's just swiping the touchscreen with Amico Cornhole.  In Wii Bowling, loft is determined by timing the button with the character animation, not unlike controlling hook/slice in typical golf games.

 

With the dart game if the throw angle is determined by the angle the controller is held that's not a throw motion.  It should calculate relative positions in space to determine the direction the dart is being thrown.  For example if you start and end your throw at the same elevation you are throwing horizontally.  If you end your throw higher than you started, you are throwing at an upward angle.  The orientation of the controller doesn't determine this.  Can you actually control the throw angle, or is there a default and you're outcome is either high or low based on your throw speed.  I can see you aim by positioning an onscreen dart graphic but that's something else.

Launch angles and speed. You tilt the dart to aim which also gives you different angles and move it forward to throw. So totally motion controls.  You are struggling with this and I don't know why. I posted this in the other thread.

https://www.nsta.org/science-scope/science-scope-mayjune-2021/cornhole-predicts-perfect-pitch

 

Screenshot_20210802-010415_Chrome.thumb.jpg.7eadbfd96fb9cb21820b435fa1be0d6f.jpg

Tilt and speed gives you arc. Know what determined how much your ball curves in Wii bowling? Tilt and speed. 🤯 Too much tilt and not enough speed and you will break into the gutter. Going faster means less break. Cornhole is a way simpler game. Cornhole looks way more complex than the dart game which has 82 different spots you could hit as opposed to the one board and hole in cornhole.

Edited by MrBeefy
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On 7/31/2021 at 10:33 AM, mr_me said:

The Amico phone app can emulate an Amico controller just like other phone apps can emulate a playstation controller but it's only recommended for certain types of games.  So no, it can't replace the Amico controller.

From the sounds of it the phones were working better than the controllers for Cornhole so you may very well be completely wrong on that. 

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Posted (edited)

Not at all, the controller, not phones, is recommended for traditional action video games; motion control games doesn't change that.   There is one Amico game that uses a camera and therefore requires a phone, but that doesn't mean phones are an acceptable replacement for the controller in all the other games.

 

Wii bowling doesn't have the benefit of a gyroscope so there's no rotational input to calculate spin.  And it's not using the sensor bar either.  It has to do it strictly with the accelerometer.  An accelerometer can sense three different linear forces in three axis so yeah, if you hold it on it's side the accelerometer is sensing a different axis.  It is faking the spin motion because you don't have to actually perform a rotational motion with the controller.

 

As I explained in the other thread, cornhole has an extra input parameter.  Not only can you target different spots on the board, you can hit that target at different angles; that angle is selected by motion control (tilting) in the updated cornhole but not throwing motion.  With darts you only have to select a target prior to throw, also by motion control (tilting) but not throwing motion, no need to hit that target at different angles.   In both games the throwing motion only determines velocity and not the launch angle.

Edited by mr_me

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Take cornhole out of the pack in list and put something else in, like oh, I dont know, Snakes and Ladders with Intellivision branding or solitaire.

The less hurdles, the faster we can run.

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4 hours ago, theGdubbz said:

Take cornhole out of the pack in list and put something else in, like oh, I dont know, Snakes and Ladders with Intellivision branding or solitaire.

The less hurdles, the faster we can run.

Snafoo was at one point announced as a pack in. That's basically Snakes without the Ladders. That has since been retracted.

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TonyTGD's source, which, keep in mind, he said himself might not necessarily be reliable, seemed to imply that IE had to lower the specs of the Amico at a certain point, so what was once a functioning game now needed to restart development from scratch.

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Posted (edited)

The processor and ram specs haven't changed since they were revealed in January 2020.  They did double the flash storage since then.  Before that, who knows, but Amico cornhole was first shown in summer 2020.  And the changes to aiming shown in the video were inserted into their existing game they didn't start over.

Edited by mr_me
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Thanks for the feedback and info, everyone. I’m still super bummed about it but am hoping to be proven wrong. I did learn a bunch about how motion controls work on this thread, so that’s awesome :)

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