Was Mario 64 the first 3rd-person 3D game with a "free" camera?

[Leeroy ST]

8 hours ago, roots.genoa said:

I'm clearly not a "N64 guy" (I don't even like Super Mario 64 tbh) but you apparently have a difficulty to understand the wall concept. Mech Warrior 2 mostly takes place in a desert.

Or you have difficulties comprehending the discussion and decided to pretend your last post bringing in a new conversation piece was part of the conversation the whole time, it wasn't.

 

Even then there are plenty of walls in M2, impassable mountains that work similar to walls, tons of physical objects that would have to deal with same camera issues you present, from short to talk structures.

 

And the camera still works the same, if I play Fable 3 and spin the camera around it's nearly the same in town or in a field.

 

You're making somewhat of an implication M2 has nothing but desert and us a flat plane only or almost only. Nope. (Not to mention Mario 64's biggest complaints are it's camera NOT WORKING with walls, at at times getting stuck in them. Also not working to well I'm general)

Edited August 4, 2021 by Leeroy ST

[Leeroy ST]

12 hours ago, turboxray said:

I think what is more interesting, than say trying to find that one obscure example and changing the claimers requirements to match said example (it's their requirements, I don't see how you get to change the qualifications. And for the record, I hate SM64), is how soon after SM64 was released that 3D games implemented that style of gameplay/camera system.

No one is changing their requirements but them. And how "soon"? Usually around near 2 years later for the frequency to become notable. Meanwhile games were using M2 camera not long after it came out. 

 

Btw are you implying Mechwarrior 2 is obscure? 

[roots.genoa]

2 hours ago, Leeroy ST said:

Or you have difficulties comprehending the discussion and decided to pretend your last post bringing in a new conversation piece was part of the conversation the whole time, it wasn't.

 

Even then there are plenty of walls in M2, impassable mountains that work similar to walls, tons of physical objects that would have to deal with same camera issues you present, from short to talk structures.

 

And the camera still works the same, if I play Fable 3 and spin the camera around it's nearly the same in town or in a field.

 

You're making somewhat of an implication M2 has nothing but desert and us a flat plane only or almost only. Nope. (Not to mention Mario 64's biggest complaints are it's camera NOT WORKING with walls, at at times getting stuck in them. Also not working to well I'm general)

Then why don't you mention games from your favorite console? Cybermorph and Iron Soldier both predate Super Mario 64. And there are a lot of buildings in the latter iirc.

 

I can understand you're annoyed by youtubers that don't know what they're talking about, but revisionism works both ways.

 

 

[Lostdragon]

Jez San, Argonaut Software, has often made the claim he was doing what Mario 64 did first:

 

“The end came when we pitched to do a 3D platform game, the likes of which had never been done before. We mocked up a prototype using Yoshi. It was essentially the world’s first 3D platform game and was obviously a big risk – Nintendo had never let an outside company use their characters before, and weren’t about to, either. This is the moment the deal fell apart. We later made that game into Croc: Legend of the Gobbos for the PlayStation, Saturn and PC, which became our biggest ever game in terms of sales and also in royalties, since we owned the IP.”

 

 

Others suggested Mev Dinc might of been earlier still, did put it to him back along :

 

 

 

We started the development of our super ambitious, all singing, all dancing 3D Hodja in 1994, at the same we started our excellent Street Racer. This should be a valid claim unless Croc came out in 1994-95!

Jez was a great developer and did some clever 3D stuff so I wouldn’t mind loosing out to him, he’s also a good friend. :))

 

 

So it looks other teams were experimenting with the concepts 

 

 

Trouble with Jez is, he's notorious for writing history in his favour  when it suits him, so i am wary of his claim. 

 

It would be better if backed up by multiple sources from within Argonaut at the time. 

 

Edited August 4, 2021 by Lostdragon

[roots.genoa]

It's interesting indeed, but I don't think it's that relevant that Nintendo "stole the idea" from Argonaut. Because in terms of impact on both the mainstream audience and the industry, Super Mario 64 was released first and, even though I don't personally like it, I think most people (Argonaut included) would agree SM64 is a far better game than Croc. Actually, if Croc was such a success, it's probably because SM64 made the 3D platformer genre popular but it was not available on competing platforms.

[high voltage]

No!

[Leeroy ST]

14 hours ago, roots.genoa said:

Then why don't you mention games from your favorite console? 

 

 

There's no revision you saw one gif in a small empty area and assumed that's all the game was. The game clearly exists so how is that revisionism?

 

Also strange Jaguar segway.

 

2 hours ago, high voltage said:

No!

Ok, what did you have in mind?

[Leeroy ST]

9 hours ago, roots.genoa said:

It's interesting indeed, but I don't think it's that relevant that Nintendo "stole the idea" from Argonaut. Because in terms of impact on both the mainstream audience and the industry, Super Mario 64 was released first and, even though I don't personally like it, I think most people (Argonaut included) would agree SM64 is a far better game than Croc. Actually, if Croc was such a success, it's probably because SM64 made the 3D platformer genre popular but it was not available on competing platforms.

Crash, Bubsy(early), and Tomb Raider were popular in 1996, I think Croc would have been popular regardless just because it was a competent 3D game.

 

13 hours ago, Lostdragon said:

Jez San, Argonaut Software, has often made the claim he was doing what Mario 64 did first:

 

“The end came when we pitched to do a 3D platform game, the likes of which had never been done before. We mocked up a prototype using Yoshi. It was essentially the world’s first 3D platform game and was obviously a big risk – Nintendo had never let an outside company use their characters before, and weren’t about to, either. This is the moment the deal fell apart. We later made that game into Croc: Legend of the Gobbos for the PlayStation, Saturn and PC, which became our biggest ever game in terms of sales and also in royalties, since we owned the IP.”

 

 

Others suggested Mev Dinc might of been earlier still, did put it to him back along :

 

 

 

We started the development of our super ambitious, all singing, all dancing 3D Hodja in 1994, at the same we started our excellent Street Racer. This should be a valid claim unless Croc came out in 1994-95!

Jez was a great developer and did some clever 3D stuff so I wouldn’t mind loosing out to him, he’s also a good friend. :))

 

 

So it looks other teams were experimenting with the concepts 

 

 

Trouble with Jez is, he's notorious for writing history in his favour  when it suits him, so i am wary of his claim. 

 

It would be better if backed up by multiple sources from within Argonaut at the time. 

 

I find it strange how he said Nintendo didn't let outside companies use their characters. I guess Argonaut wasn't aware of the various spin-offs and such. (And technically on paper would include themselves kind of)

[roots.genoa]

5 minutes ago, Leeroy ST said:

There's no revision you saw one gif in a small empty area and assumed that's all the game was. The game clearly exists so how is that revisionism?

I actually looked for other pictures and video of Mech Warrior 2, and most took place in empty areas, at least compared to SM64. But I'm not downplaying its importance. Someone claiming SM64 is the first ever third person 3D game is of course mistaken; it's not even the first 3D platformer. Alpha Waves is. But SM64 is one of the most influential games in this genre, like the first SMB was, whether we like them or not. And downplaying that is revisionist. If that's not what you're trying to do, good for you.

[Leeroy ST]

13 minutes ago, roots.genoa said:

I actually looked for other pictures and video of Mech Warrior 2, and most took place in empty areas, at least compared to SM64. But I'm not downplaying its importance. Someone claiming SM64 is the first ever third person 3D game is of course mistaken; it's not even the first 3D platformer. Alpha Waves is. But SM64 is one of the most influential games in this genre, like the first SMB was, whether we like them or not. And downplaying that is revisionist. If that's not what you're trying to do, good for you.

I didn't get were you got downplaying from. Mechwarrior was also very influencial.

 

The thing is I believe you're making a mistake a commonly see with console players. Mario 64 was influencial but claims like "influenced nearly all games today" is wrong, and another thing to keep in mind is the computer industry was mostly separate and there isn't much influence from Mario 64 on most computer games. Sure there are some but I feel like people are projecting the M64's influence farther than it actually was.

 

Then when you point these things out there's accusations of downplaying. No one is downplaying anything. 

 

With Zelda it makes even less sense but that's another N64 title stretched beyond it's boundaries. No one is saying that neither weren't influencial but if you're saying you wouldnt have "most" games today without them that's just insane. It's very common to see statements like "Mario 64 basically created 3D game design" go around, I'm just pointing out that's too far.