Would Atari had been better off if Bushnell hadn´t sold it?

[leech]

2 minutes ago, agradeneu said:

So "Rome Total War" and "C&C Red Alert" were the same games, only reskinned?

 

What about Age of Empires 2? Only reskinned? What about Stronghold? Only reskinned?

 

All Platform games were reskinned Marios? All Shmups reskinned Space Invaders?

 

All consoles and computers reskinned Amigas?

 

Look, when you like Metal music and you meet a guy who claims that its all sounding the same rubbish noise, what would you do? Convince him? Tell him he had no clue?

 

People have different tastes and bias, can't argue about that! 

 

 

 

Total War games are in their own Genre (mix of rts/tbs).  Age of Empres 2 and C&C yes, they basically are.  I can't remember how Stronghold played, because my brain wants to think of Castles, which was awesome and a different type of strategy game.

Platformers like Super Mario Bros go into the side scrolling platform genre for a reason.  So yes, Rayman is a reskinned SMB... sure there are a few new gimmicks as time marches on, but the same basic skill set is used to complete the games.

 

Let's face it.  A lot of Metal DOES sound the same, and it is my preferred music.

[agradeneu]

12 minutes ago, leech said:

Total War games are in their own Genre (mix of rts/tbs).  Age of Empres 2 and C&C yes, they basically are.  I can't remember how Stronghold played, because my brain wants to think of Castles, which was awesome and a different type of strategy game.

Platformers like Super Mario Bros go into the side scrolling platform genre for a reason.  So yes, Rayman is a reskinned SMB... sure there are a few new gimmicks as time marches on, but the same basic skill set is used to complete the games.

 

Let's face it.  A lot of Metal DOES sound the same, and it is my preferred music.

But the RTS part of Total War games was the same as C&C? Do you think that? Because that part is a RTS game, period.

 

Stronghold is a RTS which focuses on building and managing your castle.( I guess your memory might be the true issue here.)

 

 

Another very innovate RTS was Battle Realms, unfortunality it flopped. It had some interesting mechanics how to train units and the units had special abilities. Buildings could catch fire, there was weather and a 3D engine.

 

I also like Warhammer 40.000 as there was no resource gathering but all about seizing and controlling check points.

 

Another great one was Rise of Nations, with city based economy, RTS combat and dynamic borders of your territory.

 

Calling Age of Empires 2 a C&C clone is pure blasphemy. But nevermind. 

 

 

Edited October 3, 2021 by agradeneu

[leech]

1 hour ago, agradeneu said:

But the RTS part of Total War games was the same as C&C? Do you think that? Because that part is a RTS game, period.

 

Stronghold is a RTS which focuses on building and managing your castle.( I guess your memory might be the true issue here.)

 

 

Another very innovate RTS was Battle Realms, unfortunality it flopped. It had some interesting mechanics how to train units and the units had special abilities. Buildings could catch fire, there was weather and a 3D engine.

 

I also like Warhammer 40.000 as there was no resource gathering but all about seizing and controlling check points.

 

Another great one was Rise of Nations, with city based economy, RTS combat and dynamic borders of your territory.

 

Calling Age of Empires 2 a C&C clone is pure blasphemy. But nevermind. 

 

 

I did like Rise of Nations as it was Civilization meets RTS.  But the only real difference between Age of Empires and C&C are the Ages thing, so a tweak to the tech tree. 

Yeah, I know I played Stronghold, but also played Castles, and probably played that a lot more...

 

Battle Realms and Warwind have some things in common.  The thing I really liked about Warwind is you cannot just crank out troops, you have to find them / train them.  Each mission has a limited amout of troops you can get.  Makes it a lot more strategic than just being able to make more when you lose them.

 

Same with Myth.  Myth had some success.  Warwind did not.  So as you can see, kind of proving my point, if you deviate from the 'standard' RTS, you tend to fail.

[agradeneu]

11 minutes ago, leech said:

I did like Rise of Nations as it was Civilization meets RTS.  But the only real difference between Age of Empires and C&C are the Ages thing, so a tweak to the tech tree. 

Yeah, I know I played Stronghold, but also played Castles, and probably played that a lot more...

 

Battle Realms and Warwind have some things in common.  The thing I really liked about Warwind is you cannot just crank out troops, you have to find them / train them.  Each mission has a limited amout of troops you can get.  Makes it a lot more strategic than just being able to make more when you lose them.

 

Same with Myth.  Myth had some success.  Warwind did not.  So as you can see, kind of proving my point, if you deviate from the 'standard' RTS, you tend to fail.

Which was not really your point to begin with, but anyway....

 

BTW are you and Leeroy the same person? 

 

 

[Lostdragon]

Nice to see Rise Of Nations geta mention, loved that, still have the soundtrack on disc here. 

 

I used to play a lot of C+C era RTS games, you used to be able to exploit the A. I by simply building up your base defence amassing a huge fleet of aerial craft and mass attacking an objective, enough units would survive to destroy the objective, but things have progressed a lot since then i should imagine. 

 

Not really touched the genre since Warzone 2100 and Command And Conquer:Generals. 

 

 

Had Red Alert 3 on PS3, but found it a step backwards for the series, so always returned to Generals, whilst i had a PC. 

 

[agradeneu]

8 minutes ago, Lostdragon said:

Nice to see Rise Of Nations geta mention, loved that, still have the soundtrack on disc here. 

 

I used to play a lot of C+C era RTS games, you used to be able to exploit the A. I by simply building up your base defence amassing a huge fleet of aerial craft and mass attacking an objective, enough units would survive to destroy the objective, but things have progressed a lot since then i should imagine. 

 

Not really touched the genre since Warzone 2100 and Command And Conquer:Generals. 

 

 

Had Red Alert 3 on PS3, but found it a step backwards for the series, so always returned to Generals, whilst i had a PC. 

 

The recent Age of Empires 2 Definitive Edition is brilliant. You don't need another RTS, its incredibly deep and complex and it's very popular in e-sports. Top Players are doing incredible stuff with strategies and tactics.  Still playing it, the AI is greatly improved, simple rush tactics don't work anymore.

 

Now just looking at just some innovations the genre brought to the table when evolving over the years:

 

- 3D engines

- terrain and weather effecting units

- ballistics and real time physics 

- deformable terrain

- formations and squad tactics

- RPG elements

- turn based strategy elements

- AI improvements

- diverse historical, fantasy and science fiction scenarios

Edited October 3, 2021 by agradeneu

[leech]

29 minutes ago, agradeneu said:

The recent Age of Empires 2 Definitive Edition is brilliant. You don't need another RTS, its incredibly deep and complex and it's very popular in e-sports. Top Players are doing incredible stuff with strategies and tactics.  Still playing it, the AI is greatly improved, simple rush tactics don't work anymore.

 

Now just looking at just some innovations the genre brought to the table when evolving over the years:

 

- 3D engines

- terrain and weather effecting units

- ballistics and real time physics 

- deformable terrain

- formations and squad tactics

- RPG elements

- turn based strategy elements

- AI improvements

- diverse historical, fantasy and science fiction scenarios

There is an updated Rise of Nations that released as well.

[agradeneu]

24 minutes ago, leech said:

There is an updated Rise of Nations that released as well.

Too bad Rise of Legends was overlooked. That one was cool.

[pacman000]

4 hours ago, agradeneu said:

So "Rome Total War" and "C&C Red Alert" were the same games, only reskinned?

 

What about Age of Empires 2? Only reskinned? What about Stronghold? Only reskinned?

 

All Platform games were reskinned Marios? All Shmups reskinned Space Invaders?

 

All consoles and computers reskinned Amigas?

 

Look, when you like Metal music and you meet a guy who claims that its all sounding the same rubbish noise, what would you do? Convince him? Tell him he had no clue?

 

People have different tastes and bias, can't argue about that! 

 

 

 

A coffee cup... is a donut!

[leech]

1 hour ago, agradeneu said:

Which was not really your point to begin with, but anyway....

 

BTW are you and Leeroy the same person? 

 

 

My point to begin with was that RTS games tend to be basically the same as Dune 2 was.  Are there some that stepped outside of that?  Sure.  They tended to not be very popular.  The core mechanics of Warcraft and Age of Empires remain the same. 

 

Then you have the grand strategy games (like the Total War series and Crusader Kings, etc) that are a cross between TBS and RTS.  They even have RPG elements.  These are not (or at least should not be) in the same category as RTS games.

 

And no, Leeroy and I are not the same person... unless I have multiple personalities that take over and post?  That would kind of suck...

36 minutes ago, agradeneu said:

Too bad Rise of Legends was overlooked. That one was cool.

I don't think it did well enough commercially though for them to do a new release?  But here is hoping that they do.

 

Of the RTS games I have enjoyed: Dark Reign, C&C, Myth, Warwind II (keep meaning to try the first one.  Dude I know said SSI made terrible strategy games when he tried Warwind II... probably because it wasn't exactly like the RTS games he was used to, otherwise cookie cutter from a Blizzard game...), Rise of Nations|Legends.

 

i wanted to like KKND, but the AI was so broken on that, if you didn't babysit your troops, they would just stand there and die, making it incredibly difficult to progress.

Edited October 3, 2021 by leech

[James Vontor]

So Command and Conquer has not evolve from Dune 2?

[leech]

1 hour ago, James Vontor said:

So Command and Conquer has not evolve from Dune 2?

The funny thing is, they were both done by tge same studio, but more RTS games copied Dune 2 than Command and Conquer.  By this I mean how C&C has mire about smaller troop pieces, and things like Dune 2 and Warcraft / StarCraft are larger units.  Age of Empires is more like C&C in that respect as well.  Overall the same game play though.  Create a base, create houses / barracks, etc.  Churn out various troops, send them out to conquer. 

[agradeneu]

2 hours ago, leech said:

The funny thing is, they were both done by tge same studio, but more RTS games copied Dune 2 than Command and Conquer.  By this I mean how C&C has mire about smaller troop pieces, and things like Dune 2 and Warcraft / StarCraft are larger units.  Age of Empires is more like C&C in that respect as well.  Overall the same game play though.  Create a base, create houses / barracks, etc.  Churn out various troops, send them out to conquer. 

Sorry, leech, but an oversimplified, (lazy) superficial generalization does not prove your point. You can generalize any genre to a bottom line and then claim it did not evolve, even board games. It's just incorrect.

AoEII's economy/resources mechanics alone are much more complex then DuneII or C&C, requiring more strategic planning and options. Which is what strategy games are about

Tactical RTS like Sudden Strike series are not like D2 at all. Total War's Multiplayer Battles are pure RTS (as well as the historic battle simulations), its nothing like Dune 2.

 Just shows how much RTS games evolved into different subgenres.

Anyway, Iam out of this discussion, its going in circles.

 

BTW: Where are all the "Rayman artists" you wanted to hire for Jaguar games? Iam still waiting.... 

 

 

 

Edited October 4, 2021 by agradeneu

[leech]

2 hours ago, agradeneu said:

Sorry, leech, but an oversimplified, (lazy) superficial generalization does not prove your point. You can generalize any genre to a bottom line and then claim it did not evolve, even board games. It's just incorrect.

AoEII's economy/resources mechanics alone are much more complex then DuneII or C&C, requiring more strategic planning and options. Which is what strategy games are about

Tactical RTS like Sudden Strike series are not like D2 at all. Total War's Multiplayer Battles are pure RTS (as well as the historic battle simulations), its nothing like Dune 2.

 Just shows how much RTS games evolved into different subgenres.

Anyway, Iam out of this discussion, its going in circles.

 

BTW: Where are all the "Rayman artists" you wanted to hire for Jaguar games? Iam still waiting.... 

 

 

 

At their root they are very much the same.  AoE has superficial economy.  Sure there were evolution and improvements, but they all essentially play the same.  If you learn the controls of one, you know the controls of the others.  This has always been my point, that outside of a fresh new skin, maybe some AI changes, or adding a resource or just changing the names.  

As I have said, Total War series does not fit within the family of games that was spawned by Dune 2.  The Total War games, if I recall, has the option to not even do the RTS parts and you can let the computer work that out. 

I do find it funny how I can trigger people with this.  Kept having the argument with a friend who loved RTS games and would claim all FPS games were the same. 

I bet it is a lot easier to create a generic rts engine that anyone could create their own graphics / sound for and it would be accepted as a new game as an RTS than a FPS, which requires a lot more story, graphics, characters, etc.  Without just being called a Doom clone. 

 

[pacman000]

At their root, all computer & video games are the same. We're just manipulating light to accomplish some goal, be it advancement or points or something different.

 

You can say "this genre hasn't advanced enough for me to find new games interesting," but you cannot say "this genre hasn't advanced at all."

Edited October 4, 2021 by pacman000

[zzip]

On 10/2/2021 at 11:26 AM, leech said:

The reason there wasn't any standardized genre back then was because people didn't tend to copy each other's ideas as much.

Well all the Space Invaders clones, Pac man clones and Q*Bert clones would beg to differ ?.    Still there was a lot of gameplay experiments and innovation going on at the time. 

 

On 10/3/2021 at 10:40 AM, agradeneu said:

 I read quite the contrary. E.T. -  was it released before the crash or afterwards?

And after the crash, Atari never again regained their position as a leading force and innovator in video games for home consoles. Can you tell me why?

E.T. was before the crash.    The Urban legend is that it single-handedly caused the crash

 

Atari was sold in 1984 to Jack Tramiel, and he was more interested in selling computers than videogames, so the company focus shifted.  Also he didn't buy the coin-op part of Atari, so all those post-1984 Atari arcade machines - the license to them was owned by another company.  So at that point instead of Atari always having the latest and greatest coin-op conversions,  they tended to release the games based on the licenses they had before the sale.   The Atari game library quickly became dated

Edited October 4, 2021 by zzip
fix run-on sentence.

[leech]

2 hours ago, zzip said:

Well all the Space Invaders clones, Pac man clones and Q*Bert clones would beg to differ ?.    Still there was a lot of gameplay experiments and innovation going on at the time. 

I'll give ya Space invaders.  But Pac-Man was mostly cloned because it didn't get released on various computers/consoles.  I don't remember any Q*Bert clones! 

 

Amusingly, I recently found some info about how Donkey Kong was written by the same dude who created Congo Bongo, and that Nintendo screwed him over and so he took his Monkey making over to Sega.

 

At least with Space Invaders, we had some nice improvements to the style with Galaga, Galaxian and Gorf, to name a few.  Then of course clones after that.  The ones that came later have that annoying thing with the spaceships just coming straight at you!

 

Hmm, I should play more Threshold.

[zzip]

9 minutes ago, leech said:

I'll give ya Space invaders.  But Pac-Man was mostly cloned because it didn't get released on various computers/consoles.  I don't remember any Q*Bert clones! 

In the arcade there were Ladybug and Mousetrap,  lots more on home systems

 

Q*bert had a lot of clones, especially on home computers.   Off the top of my head:  Flip and Flop, Pogo Joe, Mr. Cool, Slinky

[pacman000]

Pac-Man Clones on the Atari 2600:

 

Mousetrap

 

Alien

 

Jawbreaker

 

Lockjaw/Shark Attack

 

Similar Game Pre-Pacman:

 

Dodge 'Em

Edited October 4, 2021 by pacman000

[leech]

1 hour ago, zzip said:

In the arcade there were Ladybug and Mousetrap,  lots more on home systems

 

Q*bert had a lot of clones, especially on home computers.   Off the top of my head:  Flip and Flop, Pogo Joe, Mr. Cool, Slinky

Ah, I only played Slinky out of those.  Damned  if I can remember where.

 

59 minutes ago, pacman000 said:

Pac-Man Clones on the Atari 2600:

 

Mousetrap

 

Alien

 

Jawbreaker

 

Lockjaw/Shark Attack

 

Similar Game Pre-Pacman:

 

Dodge 'Em

Jawbreaker on the A8 was awesome.  I never played Aliens. But watched a video recently.  It looked horrible.

I do remember playing Mousetrap too.

Ha, most of those clones of Pac-man came out on the 2600 because the Pac-Man that was released for it was pretty terrible.

 

[The Usotsuki]

I've seen 2 Q*bert clones on the Apple ][ - Cu-bit (straight but mediocre) and Mr. Cool (had some innovations).

[agradeneu]

My final two cents for this "clone" discussion:

I think there is a very huge difference between a game being a clone or a game sharing some basic game mechanics within a genre. As soon as you do some work on original game design, and you will quickly find that difference out

 

An example: Knowing  how much work went into in our game "Gravitic Mines", to make it a unique experience, I was surprised to read some comments of people being quick to write it off as a "clone" of Thrust. Bang!

 

Well, what can I do? Its a lesson of life that people are very judgemental on things they have no deeper understanding of or are mostly uninformed about. It's quite a paradoxon, but it happens to all of us.

 

 

 

[Retro Rogue]

Crazy, the names have changed but I’m seeing the same conversations, comments and claims recycling from 10, 15, and 20 years ago.