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Would Atari had been better off if Bushnell hadn´t sold it?

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124 members have voted

  1. 1. Would Atari had been better off if Bushnell hadn´t sold it to Warner?

    • Probably yes
      49
    • Probably no
      38
    • I have no idea
      37


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4 hours ago, roots.genoa said:

I

 

Once again you caricature things to make it easier to criticize. I believe you saw one or two YouTubers claiming SM64 was the first ever 3D platformer (even though it was "first third person game with a free camera" rather, which is a really weird claim, but whatever). But I really doubt it became "common consensus".

Most people know through the 90s and 2000s the first claim was so common it was even in the press.

 

The second claim was later but has also been around as "first game" or "introduced the camera" which was in the press too. Even RECENTLY.

 

Anyone from the US knows the wild many claims of the N64 and it's games over the years which in some cases are still prominent now.

 

You like many others will try to find an excuse to dodge the fact the claims are wrong, and will bring up a goal post moves instead. Like "but they did it better". (Which isn't true often) or in your case "no one can deny it was influencial" ( which no one argued, also applies to other games).

Edited by Leeroy ST
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6 hours ago, Matt_B said:

You're probably thinking of the CD-i/PC 2.0 card. 

No I gave you an exact answer and you ignored it with a completely unrelated assumption.

 

6 hours ago, Matt_B said:

There are about eighty Dreamcast games that use Windows CE and you'll see the logo when you boot any of them up. That's a lot less than they were hoping for when they ported it, with most developers just bypassing it to write directly for Sega's APIs, but they obviously did a lot more than just slap a logo on it.

 

In terms of Microsoft's involvement it's a slapped on logo.

 

Even now people believe the DC runs Windows CE. Which is false.

 

But technically Xbox was the first real Microsoft console in either case.

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7 hours ago, x=usr(1536) said:

CD-i suffered from having poor focus.  Nobody at Philips could decide if it was a gaming console, video player, educational tool, or the ever-nebulous multimedia wonder device that was so hot in the early '90s.  

Not quite, the CD-i is a disc format focusing on interactivity and advanced audio and video. It would have games from the start as default.

 

The lack of focus came in 1994 when the sales were dropping very low. Keep in mind this when having perspective on the CD-i players failure. They were supposed to sell like VCR players or Laserdisc players.

 

So while the CD-i players(not CD-i itself) sold 1 million units, that only seems not "too bad of a failure" if you ignore the $2~ billion loss (the $1 billion loss quote is old before discontinuation) and look at it only as a games console.

 

But then when you realize there were supposed to be millions of them in people's homes world wide, or in schools and businesses, the mass failure becomes much more clear.

 

At that point Philips divided itself based on the market. While games were always on CD-i, there was an accelerated focus on them in the US. In Europe, education and photo CDs were the focus. In Asia movies.

 

Later in 96 they started to dial all that back slowly to focus on ONLINE. A last ditch effort to gain traction. It generally wasn't that bad (outside only one online game) but PC had taken over by that point and prices for entry level were low, it was kind of pointless. 

 

If they focused on games for online that may have gained some traction, but they aimed for productivity and browsing.

Edited by Leeroy ST

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5 minutes ago, Leeroy ST said:

Not quite, the CD-i is a disc format focusing on interactivity and advanced audio and video. It would have games from the start as default.

 

The lack of focus came in 1994 when the sales were dropping very low. Keep in mind this when having perspective on the CD-i players failure. They were supposed to sell like VCR players or Laserdisc players.

 

So while the CD-i players(not CD-i itself) sold 1 million units, that only seems not "too bad of a failure" if you ignore the $2~ billion loss (the $1 billion loss quote is old before discontinuation) and look at it only as a games console.

 

But then when you realize there were supposed to be millions of them in people's homes world wide, or in schools and businesses, the mass failure becomes much more clear.

 

At that point Philips divided itself based on the market. While games were always on CD-i, there was an accelerated focus on them in the US. In Europe, education and photo CDs were the focus. In Asia movies.

 

Later in 96 they started to dial all that back slowly to focus on ONLINE. A last ditch effort to gain traction. It generally wasn't that bad (outside only one online game) but PC had taken over by that point and prices for entry level were low, it was kind of pointless. 

 

If they focused on games for online that may have gained some traction, but they aimed for productivity and browsing.

It's entertaining how you not only insert points in your reply that have nothing to do with what I actually said, but also manage to ignore that my lived experience with the system was considerably different in several ways.

 

Please tell me how I'm wrong some more; it's incredibly interesting.

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24 minutes ago, x=usr(1536) said:

It's entertaining how you not only insert points in your reply that have nothing to do with what I actually said, but also manage to ignore that my lived experience with the system was considerably different in several ways.

 

Please tell me how I'm wrong some more; it's incredibly interesting.

So we either go with facts, or your personal opinion that it was always unfocused because you felt that way.

 

Hmmmm.

 

I guess with so many reactionary and emotional people these days, I guess it'll be hard to get you to realize the above post was helpful and broke down WHEN they were unfocused, but I guess it doesn't go along with your anecdotal personal experience, so the facts dont matter.

 

A friend of mine saw more Jaguar games once at a store than 3DO games. Clearly indication the Jaguar sold more because it was his emotional personal experience. How dare me to think of telling him the facts it sold less. Oh no.

 

 

 

Edited by Leeroy ST
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10 minutes ago, Leeroy ST said:

So we either go with facts, or your personal opinion that it was always unfocused because you felt that way.

Personal opinion?  No, it's what I witnessed from watching family work on CD-i projects for Philips over the course of approximately two years.  About half of that time was pre-launch; about half was post-launch.  That person left because Philips didn't have their act together when it came to things like setting focus and related priorities for the system.

 

My opinion is that the CD-i was a letdown once I got my hands on it.  My observation (i.e., fact) was that Philips didn't have a clear market niche for it to fill and no idea which one(s) to aim at.

Quote

Hmmmm.

 

I guess with so many reactionary and emotional people these days, I guess it'll be hard to get you to realize the above post was helpful and broke down WHEN they were unfocused, but I guess it doesn't go along with your anecdotal personal experience, so the facts dont matter.

This makes about as much sense as your previous reply.

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41 minutes ago, x=usr(1536) said:

That person left because Philips didn't have their act together 

And when did they leave?

 

Quote

My observation (i.e., fact) 

No it's not, that's still subjective. Someone else came to a different conclusion.

Edited by Leeroy ST

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Irony aside, I found this which can pose a case for how important Warner was for getting the 2600 to take off:

 

Brandenton herald 1978 24 DEC

clip_84980078.thumb.jpg.16b3710a44ac0a83263e471df4c3899f.jpg

 

So Fairchild outsold the VCS in 1977, but Warner picked things up and overshadowed them 3:1 in 1978 despite the Fairchilds earlier momentum and a $70 difference in favor of the Channel F.

 

It is possible if Nolan did NOT sell, Atari wouldn't have been able to pull the same jump ahead and things would have been more competitive.

 

We dont know exacts but I'm fairly certain Fairchild had more money than Atari pre-Warner sale. 

 

What's more is that Fairchild and Atari being competitive, may have changed how well the Mattel Intellivision performed.

 

As currently, Atari was alone gaining market share in a virtual monopoly with hit games like Asteroids and Mattel entered in with a steep hill to climb.

 

But with Atari and Fairchild competing, not only may Mattel be more successful, but it's power advantage and better graphics may have been appreciated more. As well as it's unique (for the time) game selection.

 

Dont think they (Mattel) would pull ahead, but that would change how things played out drastically. Unlike now where there was Atari near monopolistic domination until the CV.

 

 

 

 

 

Edited by Leeroy ST
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9 hours ago, Leeroy ST said:

And when did they leave?

That was made clear in my previous reply.

9 hours ago, Leeroy ST said:

No it's not, that's still subjective. Someone else came to a different conclusion.

If being right it is what it takes for you to be happy, then by all means have this one.  I just don't care enough to keep going around in circles with your ever-shifting concept of reality.

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11 hours ago, Leeroy ST said:

No I gave you an exact answer and you ignored it with a completely unrelated assumption.

If my assumptions are incorrect I'd appreciate a source, thanks.

 

11 hours ago, Leeroy ST said:

In terms of Microsoft's involvement it's a slapped on logo.

 

Even now people believe the DC runs Windows CE. Which is false.

No, it's true. Here's a source:

 

https://segaretro.org/Windows_CE

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9 hours ago, x=usr(1536) said:

This makes about as much sense as your previous reply.

 

I encountered this guy in the recent tape vs disk topic which mirrors this one.

 

After some back and forth, I decided to look back at his post history...holy crap does this guy have issues!  He knows everything and he is right 100% of the time.

If you disagree in the least with anything he says: he'll talk down on you, say you have no clue, your comment is irrelevant, can't comprehend what he's saying, grasping at straws, twisting his words, you're confused or your claims are just your opinion while his are facts.  His facts are often general marketing newspaper articles, never something like a scan from a magazine, Computer Shopper or a sales flyer back in the day with actual products and pricing.

 

Instead of replying to him, you're better off going into your backyard and telling it to a squirrel instead.  It'll comprehend you more and the chatter you get back from it will make more sense.

 

This is just a quick random sample of his typical posts on Atari Age and it seriously just goes on and on:

 

 

 

 

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Out of context off topic posts and irony aside:

 

15 minutes ago, Matt_B said:

No, it's true. Here's a source:

 

https://segaretro.org/Windows_CE

No, the Dreamcast itself does not run Windows CE

 

Quote

3.10.3 Does this mean my Dreamcast has Windows inside?

 

- No! Windows CE is an optional environment for programming on the Dreamcast.

  If a game is programmed using Windows CE development tools, the WinCE core

  is provided on the actual game disc itself. Microsoft haven't got anything

  inside your Dreamcast, so don't worry.

 

At best you could say "technically" there is Windows "in" your Dreamcast once you put in a Disc, lol.

 

But yeah, that's a common mistake people made. But to general consumers it makes sense to come to that conclusion at first glance

Edited by Leeroy ST
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16 minutes ago, Leeroy ST said:

Out of context off topic posts and irony aside:

 

No, the Dreamcast itself does not run Windows CE

 

 

At best you could say "technically" there is Windows "in" your Dreamcast once you put in a Disc, lol.

 

But yeah, that's a common mistake people made. But to general consumers it makes sense to come to that conclusion at first glance

Er... that's still running Windows CE though.

 

After all, you wouldn't say that the IBM PC didn't run DOS because you had to put a disk in and boot it.


Then again, maybe you would...

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33 minutes ago, x=usr(1536) said:

  I just don't care enough to keep going around in circles with your ever-shifting concept of reality.

There are no circles, your personal feelings are not reality as we have documentation showing the shifts Philips made:

 

clip_84988796.thumb.jpg.1b7724a220506f524ff12e5294f9493d.jpg

 

clip_84988796.thumb.jpg.1b7724a220506f524ff12e5294f9493d.jpg

 

So there's really nothing for you to argue about. I'm sorry you had a bad experience but that has nothing to do with when the shift in focus occurred (you won't give me a year that guy left either. Likely because it matches the dates of these articles.)

 

But that's enough of the CD-i. Back to Atari.

clip_84988936.jpg

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5 minutes ago, Matt_B said:

Er... that's still running Windows CE though.

 

No the DREAMCAST is not running Windows CE, Even with a game developed with it, the disc does not change the DC OS to Windows CE when inserted. The DOS comparison doesn't work here.

 

Quote

sigh*

We've been hearing this since 1999.

The DC does NOT have Windows CE in it.

 

The logo on the front says the DC is COMPATIBLE WITH Windows CE, not that it's in there.

 

There was a version of WinCE that ran on the Dreamcast, but it was ONLY shipped with the software that used it. It's all easily identified because the "Produced by or under license from Sega" screen also has a "Powered by Windows CE" logo on it.

 

 

 

 

 

 

Kind of a shame to hear Sega's finally killing it off completely.

 

More previous post on the subject.

 

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43 minutes ago, Turbo-Torch said:

Instead of replying to him, you're better off going into your backyard and telling it to a squirrel instead.  It'll comprehend you more and the chatter you get back from it will make more sense.

You sir, win the interwebs for today. That made almost made me choke on cup of tea. Jolly good show :) 

 

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15 minutes ago, Leeroy ST said:

No the DREAMCAST is not running Windows CE, Even with a game developed with it, the disc does not change the DC OS to Windows CE when inserted. The DOS comparison doesn't work here.

So, running software from a disc doesn't count?

 

I guess the Dreamcast doesn't run games then. Small wonder that it bombed. 😉

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1 hour ago, Turbo-Torch said:

Instead of replying to him, you're better off going into your backyard and telling it to a squirrel instead.  It'll comprehend you more and the chatter you get back from it will make more sense.

Believe me, you and I are 100% in agreement on this.  This isn't the only thread I've seen it happen in either.

 

My only regret is that I didn't hold my tongue.  How it was likely to go was obvious from the start, but, for some reason, I succumbed to opening my mouth when I certainly knew better.  Ugh.

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1 minute ago, Matt_B said:

I guess the Dreamcast doesn't run games then. Small wonder that it bombed. 

Good thing most Dreamcast games weren't made with Windows CE like you said before huh? Oops?

 

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6 minutes ago, x=usr(1536) said:

Believe me, you and I are 100% in agreement on this.  This isn't the only thread I've seen it happen in either.

 

My only regret is that I didn't hold my tongue.

And you have no response to facts even with newspaper scans, cowardly skipping those to derail the thread with an indirect attack on me. But for some reason you think people won't notice that?? Hmmm how curious.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Edited by Leeroy ST
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Just now, Leeroy ST said:

And you have no response to facts even with newspaper scans, skipping those to derail the thread with an indirect attack on me. But for some reason you think people won't notice that. Hmmmm.

Sure.  Sure, that's it completely.  Good job, supersleuth!

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Back on topic, before this thread is shut down...

 

1) Would Atari have been better off if Nolan hadn’t sold it?

 

2) If he stayed involved after then sale?
 

For #1 I say no; he had too little business experience , & he has a bad track record with his later businesses.

 

Question 2 is more interesting, & I’m not sure what I think would happen. Any ideas?

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5 minutes ago, pacman000 said:

Back on topic, before this thread is shut down...

 

1) Would Atari have been better off if Nolan hadn’t sold it?

 

2) If he stayed involved after then sale?
 

For #1 I say no; he had too little business experience , & he has a bad track record with his later businesses.

 

Question 2 is more interesting, & I’m not sure what I think would happen. Any ideas?

For Question #2 -  I have a few thoughts:

 

- He formed Cyan Engineering within Atari because he wanted long term engineering development of new products;  he would have probably championed more of their stuff better than Warner did internally

 

- He had experience in "reprogrammable video game consoles" and knew why they were superior to fixed hardware.  He might have successfully pushed for something like the Amiga within Atari had the engineers talked to him.  This of course would have required Warner Atari not screwing over the engineers of the 400/800 on Royalties, so it's possible Bushnell would have fought for their payments.

 

- However, he turned down a consulting gig with Warner Atari as he left after they both agreed he wasn't a good leader for the company;  this consulting gig role is probably closest to what was possible in the #2 scenario I think you're seeking.

 

My gut is Nolan was probably bummed he sold and no longer had full creative control over the company, it would have taken a true second spirit to want to push for this.  I don't think it's likely there is any condition he would have stayed long term after sale -- he's a serial entrepreneur..  that's a great thing but it also means not staying on with large corporations for stuff like this.  

 

The one common theme I see with Warner is they knew how to advertise, sell, and build the brand - but they did NOT know how to innovate.  Bushnell knew how to innovate, and ironically - Warner failing during the crash enabled Tramiel to come in and innovate with the ST line, XE revisions, and later XEGS which re-kickstarted Atari 8-bit software development.  Jack was unfortunately aging out of the market and his sons never drove Atari as hard as he would have, had he stayed around and hands on.  Separate discussion -- but I think it's fair to say that Warner Atari's specific type of failure (including having the cash supplies to pump into a dying company before sale) also led to Atari's (successful for several years) third act with Atari Corp.. 

 

For Atari to have been more successful under Nolan, it would have needed to 1. Launch 2600,  2.  Launch 400/800 (was this in his vision?), and 3. Survive the 1983 crash (atleast).  Preferably #4 - successfully launch the 5200, 7800, or some kind of next gen decent computer prior to 1985.    If Nolan could have done ALL of these, then he would have indisputably done better than Warner (+ Tramiel follow-on).  That's a pretty tall order.. 

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44 minutes ago, x=usr(1536) said:

Sure.  Sure, that's it completely.  Good job, supersleuth!

No response, no defending your stance, not addressing documentation from the time.

 

Yep, can't handle discussion if it doesn't allign with your feelings. You can dodge all you want but it just shows you never had much to say other than ignoring events of the time.

 

I guess you didn't "observe" basic discourse from those parents/family. 

 

Anyway back to Atari since your clearly not going to bother and it's off topic anyway.

 

 

Edited by Leeroy ST
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