Happy to be part of the Bally community!

[MattPilz]

I first learned of Bally last year while searching Z80-related podcasts and stumbled across Bally Alley Astrocast. Despite being a longtime enthusiast of 70s-80s computers and consoles, I had never heard of it. That sent me down the rabbit hole of discovering the wealth of materials archived and preserved online, a feat that tops any other obscure system that I'm aware of (Bally Alley even got a special shout-out in a recent Archive.org special with John Carmack). It was fun reading the original home-grown newsletters and advertisements as well as more of the sporadic and mostly forgotten history of this console. Recently I got a working physical device and couldn't be any happier with it!

 

The technical specs are very impressive compared to anything from that era, even in comparison to some home computers made half a decade later. I say that as a fan of the equally obscure Mattel Aquarius from 1983, which lacks almost every feature and capability already seen with the 1978 Bally. In particular I'm astonished with how versatile Bally BASIC is despite the unusual way of coding for it using the calculator keypad. To be able to interface with the uniquely awesome controllers (rotation, trigger, direction), graphics and multi-voice sound all from integrated BASIC syntax makes it a powerful platform for fast development. By contrast, Aquarius BASIC (which is fixed to 80x72 draw resolution, no GPU and a static character ROM) does not include any commands to interface with the multi-voice sound chip or controllers without using machine language POKE/PEEK.

 

I am only just starting on game discovery. I will say I had a blast playing the integrated Gunfight game and even my mom enjoyed a few rounds, one of the first times she played a game since Stampede of the 2600 era. The graphics and sound really excel beyond what I would've expected for a system of this age. I have also enjoyed playing The Incredible Wizard, which I understand is one of the stand-out titles of the system.

 

Anyway I just wanted to introduce myself and thank everyone who has helped to keep this platform alive!

 

Edited August 20, 2021 by MattPilz

[ballyalley]

17 minutes ago, MattPilz said:

Bally Alley even got a special shout-out in a recent Archive.org special with John Carmack

 

That's neat!  Could you please post a link to the Archive.org special to this thread?

 

Also, be sure say hello on the Astrocade discussion group on group.io.

 

I like your comparison between Aquarius BASIC and Bally BASIC.  Another sad comparison is between BASIC Programming for the VCS and Bally BASIC.  With a bit of added RAM (4K-32K), the extended versions of BASIC (like Blue RAM BASIC) give access to more colors, commands and storage space.

 

Adam

[+cjherr]

The Astrocade is still one of my favorite systems of all time. 

[MattPilz]

5 hours ago, ballyalley said:

Could you please post a link to the Archive.org special to this thread?

Sure! https://archive.org/details/game-not-over

 

Starting at 15:30 they talk about how much of history is lost and John discusses how amazing it is to rediscover ancient artifacts for old systems. The Bally mention is at 18:05.

 

Host: Some of the real stand-outs to me include Bally Alley, where people have been just extravagantly trying to get every last piece of information about some of the home systems that Bally did. Like correspondence and discussions about how to do the game design, like down to notes that you'd get...about how they're going to put this code vs. that.

 

Carmack: Yeah it's interesting look at the absolute deepest levels of obsession about things like that. Where, I care deeply about all of this preservation, but I see people that just blow right past me wondering about "what was the deal with the bug in Doom v1.37 whatever where something behaves strangely" and it's like "I don't remember it, honestly I don't actually care that much but it's great that you do and I hope you find the answers you're looking for."

 

5 hours ago, ballyalley said:

With a bit of added RAM (4K-32K), the extended versions of BASIC (like Blue RAM BASIC) give access to more colors, commands and storage space.

I do have the Lil White RAM expansion so I am really looking forward to this as well!

 

Edit - I also have two versions of the Bally BASIC cassette hardware but not really sure if one is superior? One is just the port directly on the cartridge itself, while the other is a full cassette interface. I remember reading something about the earliest being 300 baud but an update supporting like 1000 baud.

Edited August 20, 2021 by MattPilz

[ballyalley]

10 hours ago, MattPilz said:

Sure! https://archive.org/details/game-not-over

 

Thanks for the link and the transcription.  I expected it to be audio-only; I didn't expect it to be about an hour and a half long.  I probably won't be able to make time to watch it for a week or two.

 

10 hours ago, MattPilz said:

I do have the Lil White RAM expansion so I am really looking forward to this as well!

 

Edit - I also have two versions of the Bally BASIC cassette hardware but not really sure if one is superior? One is just the port directly on the cartridge itself, while the other is a full cassette interface. I remember reading something about the earliest being 300 baud but an update supporting like 1000 baud.

 

The Lil' White Ram won't allow you to use Blue Ram BASIC, but you will be able to use ViperSoft BASIC.  These two languages are very similar, but the technique used to save are different (for BRB has its own 2000-baud interface built into the RAM expansion).

 

The external tape interface for Bally BASIC is a 300-baud serial interface.  When you load a tape using that interface, it acts very similar to typing in a program using the keyboard, but the data comes form the tape.  The Bally BASIC cartridge with the internal tape interface, usually referred to as "AstroBASIC," loads data at 2000-baud and uses a different technique.  It reloads ALL of memory (including strings and variables).

 

Adam

[Savdolite]

The Bally is quite a unique system. Especially the controller. Ohh that controller...

[ballyalley]

3 hours ago, Savdolite said:

The Bally is quite a unique system. Especially the controller. Ohh that controller...

 

Just checking... but... you're an Astrocade user/owner in Australia...?

 

Adam

[MattPilz]

11 hours ago, Savdolite said:

The Bally is quite a unique system. Especially the controller. Ohh that controller...

Interestingly, I also have an Interact Home Computer (likewise from 1978) and that has a very similar joystick configuration. Where you have a button, directional stick and wheel at the top that can be spun independently.

 

It feels like these early systems were at least partly inspired by the 2600 and pong titles from the earlier 1970s and felt combining both types of known controllers into one would be beneficial. Never caught on but they are really unique.

 

 

[ballyalley]

6 minutes ago, MattPilz said:

I also have an Interact Home Computer (likewise from 1978) and that has a very similar joystick configuration.

 

The Interact computer sure is neat looking:

 

http://www.oldcomputers.net/interact.html

 

There is an article on BallyAlley.com that is about the Bally, Interact and VideoBrain computers:

 

https://ballyalley.com/articles_and_news/creative_computing_article.pdf

 

In Astrocast #4, we mentioned that after the Bally Arcade computer was "dead" in 1979 (before its re-release in 1981 as the Astrocade by Astrovision, Inc.), The Newman Computer stores suggested potential Bally Arcade purchasers buy the Interact Model One instead.  We pulled this inform from a December 1978 hand-written letter from Brett Bilbrey to Bob Fabris (the Arcadian newsletter's publisher):

 

https://ballyalley.com/newsletters/arcadian/letters/Brett%20Bilbrey/Letter%20(Brett%20Bilbrey)(Dec%2011%201978).pdf

Dave Johnson, who later worked at Imagic, made some software for the Interact computer.  Dave is interviewed on the October 2021 Antic podcast here:

 

https://ataripodcast.libsyn.com/antic-interview-428-dave-johnson-demon-attack-atlantis-apx-lookahead-atari-personal-financial-management-system

 

I'm surprised to hear you have one of these quite-rare systems.  It may be off-topic, but I'd love to see a picture of your Interact setup.  Have you put some woodgrain on that computer yet?

 

Adam

[MattPilz]

Thank you for those links! I haven't heard that podcast so am really looking forward to it. I have a VideoBrain as well! So the trio of systems mentioned in that article.

 

I have to repair the Interact, it has one stuck button and a faulty trigger in one joystick port. But for what it is, it's a remarkably versatile early 16K home computer. I think it still has less than 4K of usable RAM after loading BASIC, and has a 2K ROM in 8080. Micro Video made an expansion board for it to bring it to 32K but I've never seen one in the wild. Also missing is their official ROM mapping guide they released in 1983, though I have decompiled the ROM and time permitting would like to create a detailed map of useful routines for machine language development in the future.

 

The downside being that every program is cassette-based. To load a BASIC program you have to first load BASIC via cassette, then the program using another. (I have a bluetooth / aux cassette adapter that works perfectly, so am able to play WAV files from my phone on a home server to it to run the programs).

 

It had several BASIC variants, Level II (comparable to TRS-80 Model I) and Microsoft 8K that supported many faster drawing functions and easier POKE/PEEK for assembly integration. Someone in the early 80s even used the Interact to power their vehicle to certain capacities.

 

There was even an informative newsletter sent out for Interact fans for a few years after Micro Video took from the original manufacturer's collapse. Some of these newsletters are floating around online. Several are available in higher quality on archive.org (but the user who uploaded them scanned each one as an uncropped, uncompressed TIF so a 23 page document is 12 GB... Which is still preferred over very low resolution scans, and I am working to convert them into more proper but still high quality PDFs.

 

I can't say the same for versatility of the VideoBrain. It did not use BASIC but rather APL/S and unfortunately that ROM and cartridge seems to be forever lost in the world, so new development for that is burdensome. Plus it had no ability to interface with cassette players on its own, it had an extra expansion to support that which also is extremely rare (I do not have one) and one other for RS232 modem/printer. There is an episode or two on the VideoBrain by Floppy Days podcast.

Edited April 12, 2022 by MattPilz

[ballyalley]

6 minutes ago, MattPilz said:

I have a VideoBrain as well! So the trio of systems mentioned in that article.

 

Ah, the VideoBrain.  I quite like that computer (not that I've used one, but I used to have quite a few carts for it).  I like it enough that I have a website dedicated to it:

 

https://orphanedgames.com/videobrain/index.htm

 

If you haven't visited my VideoBrain site yet, then I recommend reading about it in this article:

 

https://orphanedgames.com/videobrain/Books/History_of_the_Personal_Computer_(excerpt)/History_of_the_Personal_Computer_(Chapter_21)(Summary).txt

 

Also, you might be interested in programming it too:

 

https://orphanedgames.com/videobrain/f8_programming/f8_programming.htm

 

Just browse around the site.  There is a ton of information there, including all of the manuals.  Well, except for

APL/S, of course.  I THINK that someone on the VideoBrain group claimed that they had the cart, but not the manual.  They were afraid to lend it out to be dumped.  I don't blame them.

 

The Astrovision patent for the Astrocade actually site's the VideoBrain patent, which is weird.  I collected all 46 of the patents in the Bally Arcade's patent here:

 

https://archive.org/details/46PatentsCitedbytheBallyArcadeandAstrocadePatents/Bally_Arcade_Patent_-_(4296930)_(Oct_27_1981)/

 

Talk about the VideoBrain was quite active on the VideoBrain Yahoo site for some time when Sean Riddle was investigating the hardware.  I have 1,611 messages from that site, which is most of them, I guess, dated from August 2008 to November 2019.  The Yahoo discussion group moved to groups.io in 2020, but the many hundreds of VideoBrain messages did not migrate with the group.  I just checked around now, and they appear lost to time.   Here's the discussion forum on groups.io:

 

https://groups.io/g/Channel-F-and-VideoBrain/topics

 

Oh, and thanks for pointing out that archive of Interact computer documents.  I have not looked at it yet, but a quick glance through the titles makes some of them look intriguing to me.

 

Adam

[MattPilz]

What are the odds you'd be the author of that site! I had no idea, but had used it quite heavily when researching the system. Not a lot of information out there and that was the page that popped up frequently.

 

At the bottom of the page you advertise "The Channel F / VideoBrain Discussion Group" and I was sad to see when I checked only three posts on the groups.io version. Am I correct in assuming the original group probably had quite a lot of posts and activity but was all lost when Yahoo went under?

 

Thank you again for all of your contributions toward preservation of these forgotten systems.

[ballyalley]

16 hours ago, MattPilz said:

used it quite heavily when researching the system. Not a lot of information out there [about the VideoBrain] and that was the page that popped up frequently.

 

[...] Am I correct in assuming the original group probably had quite a lot of posts and activity but was all lost when Yahoo went under?

 

I'm glad that you have got some use from my VideoBrain site.  It was fun to create it.  Except for two extremely minor tweaks to the site in 2020 and 2021, I have not updated it since 2012.  I keep it around because its a sub-website attached to BallyAlley.com.  You can't tell from visiting my websites, but since my videogame/computer related VideoBrain, Arcadia 2001, and orphanedgames websites are hosted with BallyAlley.com, it's essentially free to keep those sites active.  They'll stick around for as long as I keep my Astrocade website live, which, I expect, will be pretty-much forever.

 

Yes, the Yahoo group had many messages which are no longer available online.  I talk about this in more detail in post #11 of this thread when I say, "I have 1,611 messages [archived using the Windows program PG Offline] from that site, which is most of them, I guess, dated from August 2008 to November 2019."

 

Adam

[MattPilz]

7 hours ago, ballyalley said:

Yes, the Yahoo group had many messages which are no longer available online.  I talk about this in more detail in post #11 of this thread when I say, "I have 1,611 messages [archived using the Windows program PG Offline] from that site, which is most of them, I guess, dated from August 2008 to November 2019."

 

Sorry I overlooked that part of the post. If you are able to share that archive it could be very helpful I feel bad every time discussions get lost (you have my email as well as we've communicated in the past about Bally). When I began researching VideoBrain in the last two years it seems most references and records especially the Yahoo group had already long vanished. That is what makes the Internet so volatile. Many people wrongly believe that "once it's on the Internet, it's there forever" but the truth is we lose terabytes of site content each year and services like archive.org barely scratch the service of that especially the deep web, database-driven resources and so on. I wish there were still an active community for the VideoBrain and that all of the files shared in the Yahoo Group hadn't been lost. From my experience with these ultra obscure consoles, Yahoo Groups became the standard for discussions of many of them over several decades so it is rough to lose so much.

Edited April 13, 2022 by MattPilz

[ballyalley]

2 hours ago, MattPilz said:

If you are able to share that [VideoBrain Yahoo groups] archive it could be very helpful [...]

 

I wish there were still an active community for the VideoBrain and that all of the files shared in the Yahoo Group hadn't been lost.

 

I don't have the files that were part of the VideoBrain Yahoo group, but I do have the messages.  I probably have all of them.  If not, then I have most of them.  I'll try to archive them to archive.org in a few different formats by next week.  Most of these formats won't be usable in the output that I can get from PG Offline, but one of them is just "plain" html files, with 50 messages per file.  This isn't ideal for searching, but all of the information will be in those files in an easy-to-read format.

 

Adam

 

[Savdolite]

On 4/13/2022 at 8:47 AM, ballyalley said:

 

The Interact computer sure is neat looking:

 

http://www.oldcomputers.net/interact.html

 

There is an article on BallyAlley.com that is about the Bally, Interact and VideoBrain computers:

 

https://ballyalley.com/articles_and_news/creative_computing_article.pdf

 

In Astrocast #4, we mentioned that after the Bally Arcade computer was "dead" in 1979 (before its re-release in 1981 as the Astrocade by Astrovision, Inc.), The Newman Computer stores suggested potential Bally Arcade purchasers buy the Interact Model One instead.  We pulled this inform from a December 1978 hand-written letter from Brett Bilbrey to Bob Fabris (the Arcadian newsletter's publisher):

 

https://ballyalley.com/newsletters/arcadian/letters/Brett%20Bilbrey/Letter%20(Brett%20Bilbrey)(Dec%2011%201978).pdf

Dave Johnson, who later worked at Imagic, made some software for the Interact computer.  Dave is interviewed on the October 2021 Antic podcast here:

 

https://ataripodcast.libsyn.com/antic-interview-428-dave-johnson-demon-attack-atlantis-apx-lookahead-atari-personal-financial-management-system

 

I'm surprised to hear you have one of these quite-rare systems.  It may be off-topic, but I'd love to see a picture of your Interact setup.  Have you put some woodgrain on that computer yet?

 

Adam

That's quite a funky looking raised keyboard!

This seems like quite the interesting system, I may take a closer look at it sometime soon.