Exposing fraud and deception in the retro video game market

[jhd]

2 hours ago, carlsson said:

How about this one? Someone selling an uncommon game (less than 5000 copies known to exist) and gets a message that he is asking too little money, more or less damaging the value by selling one copy below the going rate. I would think it is made up, but I doubt it is.

 

This is really funny!

 

The same argument could be made about almost anything -- for example, by selling my house cheaper than average, I was lowering the comps and thereby devaluing all of the nearby houses. Truly, I do not care so long as I am happy with the price I that received. I set the price based on a variety of factors; my neighbors' opinion was not one of them.   

[Keatah]

I'd just tell'em to piss off. Sometimes time is of the essence. And they're always welcome to step in and bid the price up.

[MrMaddog]

The thought of some retrogamer's precious & rare NES cart will eventually be worth as much as an ET game they made fun of makes me...

 

[Keatah]

Like Newt said - It's just a piece of plastic.

[Keatah]

Rather enjoyed this vid. The gentleman has a modest collection worth only about $50,000 and makes a point about how large collections are time consuming and threaten to turn their curators into resellers. Totally agree that a large collection diminishes the fun factor. And that fun factor becomes elusive as one falls into the rabbit hole.

 

IMHO, to me, collecting is a whole other mindset. Not in line with enjoying the essence of gaming and the activities that surround it. And I've seen this in youtubers where "acquisition of game x" is the only thing that matters.

 

With hundreds of thousands (or more) titles spread among hundreds of platforms, and more coming out everyday, it is utterly impossible to be a completionist except for platforms that have already twilighted. And even then there's likely a homebrew scene. A sobering thought for those completionists wannabes.

 

 

Edited September 3, 2021 by Keatah

[Leeroy ST]

I wouldn't say hundreds of platforms. There's like 82-83 consoles including add-ons and a few mainstream Android attempts. But the latter is probably stretching it.

 

Then you have the pre PC domination computer OSes, and the post PC domination OS versions that have exclusive releases that aren't compatible. Over 100 sure but not that much more.

 

But I agree it's pointless to try and collect a substantial amount. There's too many issues to deal with.

 

But something like "I will collect every American developed game on home video game consoles" is at least much more feasible to accomplish, though still incredibly difficult and expensive.

 

 

 

 

[carlsson]

39 minutes ago, Leeroy ST said:

I wouldn't say hundreds of platforms. There's like 82-83 consoles including add-ons and a few mainstream Android attempts.

Well, if we combine the two weekly trackers, by the end of 2020 those involved 124 different systems pre-2000 plus 34 different systems post-2000. The later figure didn't include the PlayStation 5 because nobody had tracked it up until that point. Some of the systems are splitting hairs how they should be counted and a few may be bogus but we have a good 150++ different formats where you can play some kind of video game. Not all of those have games to buy, some are only downloads and homebrews but still nearly twice the number you reference. There even are classic unique formats never seen on Atari, so I'm quite confident by 150++.

[Leeroy ST]

1 hour ago, carlsson said:

Well, if we combine the two weekly trackers, by the end of 2020 those involved 124 different systems pre-2000 plus 34 different systems post-2000. The later figure didn't include the PlayStation 5 because nobody had tracked it up until that point. Some of the systems are splitting hairs how they should be counted and a few may be bogus but we have a good 150++ different formats where you can play some kind of video game. Not all of those have games to buy, some are only downloads and homebrews but still nearly twice the number you reference. There even are classic unique formats never seen on Atari, so I'm quite confident by 150++.

I said there were 82-83 consoles, not platforms. That's why I mentioned pre and post PC domination (windows) platforms.

 

Your first list had less than 40 home consoles, passing it slightly if you include add ons. 2nd list adds only 11-12 more.

 

If you remove some of the questionable entries on your list, add the missing consoles and non compatible OSes that have their own library, it's Definitely less than 200. 150 is iffy but possible.

 

 

Edited September 4, 2021 by Leeroy ST

[Steven Pendleton]

7 hours ago, carlsson said:

How about this one? Someone selling an uncommon game (less than 5000 copies known to exist) and gets a message that he is asking too little money, more or less damaging the value by selling one copy below the going rate. I would think it is made up, but I doubt it is.

 

 

 

lol this is ridiculous. I can think of a game with only 5000 copies: Slap Fight MD. Game normally sells for about 30000~50000 yen, so maybe I should go buy a ton of them (they are actually surprisingly easy to find, as almost every store in Akiba has multiple copies of it) and put them on ebay for $10 each to see if I get some hatemail like this! Yeah, I have weird goals in life.

[Tanooki]

I have a game which 300 copies were run.  QWAK for the GBA that the old amiga author created himself and flashed himself to carts he bought in mass.  I wonder if that dickbag would write me something similar if I tried to sell that on ebay.

 

I was mad when I read that, a lot of memories flooded back to the abusive nature of the less nice folk back in the day (decade+) that NintendoAge had lying about.  They actively acted in a way similar to that shitty message.  VERY protective, defensive, and worse, offensive/aggressive about the value of their 'assets' whether it was new(shelf queen stuff) or used but nice.  You had to basically use your game like this, never do this this or that to a game, only go about this way but not that way.  People telling others what to do with their property, and when the common argument ensued, you know what it boiled down to?  THAT.  Because you dared touch up a label, ironed the curls out of a box or manual, because you re-printed a 1:1 label, because...whatever ...the claws came out because they felt it would ruin the value of THEIR games because you'd be creating the impression of something having alternatives that cost less, or ways of making something better so it would be harder for htme to ask X for their game if they ever sold it.  It was all about high value defensive tactics along a strategy of shutting down anyone and anything that would harm potential resale value.

 

That's what that post is, I've seen and put up with it for over a decade, found it disgusting then, first time reading that shortly after it was made public ticked me off like it was a messed up flash back, and it didn't surprise me in the least.  IT fits, fits too well.  How dare someone not value a game for the so called 'going rate' in this case of at least $270.  What's wrong with someone maybe going...shit, that's too much, you ok with $200?  How about $150?  NOOOOOO that ruins the value of MY game I can't ask that if someone lowers the bar... yeah...fuck you.  Even more shocking, they're outright admitting it and comparing their cabals intents of that of all things the crooks at OPEC.  Have I not mocked this for years saying douchebags treating it like oil/mineral speculation?  Yeah... I have, spooky.  OPEC...really??

[+thanatos]

Isn't that the exact definition of price fixing/collusion, which is illegal (sometimes) for corporations?

Yeah, could border on a political post, especially with mentions of OPEC.

[number6]

@thread

 

Followup interview with Karl Jobst from a few days ago:

 

#6

[Mayhem]

On 9/4/2021 at 5:07 PM, Tanooki said:

I have a game which 300 copies were run.  QWAK for the GBA that the old amiga author created himself and flashed himself to carts he bought in mass.  I wonder if that dickbag would write me something similar if I tried to sell that on ebay.

I recently ran across my copy of that, and struggled to try and find what it might be worth today. Probably proving some point or other. Ditto Diamond something something of London that 1000 copies were sold via Kickstarter.

[Tanooki]

4 minutes ago, Mayhem said:

I recently ran across my copy of that, and struggled to try and find what it might be worth today. Probably proving some point or other. Ditto Diamond something something of London that 1000 copies were sold via Kickstarter.

I think it's the honest truth of the reality of the sham going on.

True rare stuff has rotted or dropped in value, things that are good, maybe popular even in limited more knowing circles stangates like that Diamond Trust of London DS or QWAK on GBA.  They should be coveted sought after rarities, yet we have multi million Mario both in print, and fraudulent value sales.

[DavidD]

37 minutes ago, Mayhem said:

I recently ran across my copy of that, and struggled to try and find what it might be worth today. Probably proving some point or other. Ditto Diamond something something of London that 1000 copies were sold via Kickstarter.

I have a copy of the Diamond Trust of London... but I opened it, so....

[pacman000]

On 9/4/2021 at 8:21 PM, thanatos said:

Isn't that the exact definition of price fixing/collusion, which is illegal (sometimes) for corporations?

Yeah, could border on a political post, especially with mentions of OPEC.

It’s illegal for individuals too; someone should’ve sent that to the FTC.

 

Exception: Minimum & Maximum Advertised Prices are generally legal.

 

(I’m no lawyer; I just find this interesting. This is NOT legal advise; get a lawyer for legal advise.)

Edited September 7, 2021 by pacman000

[+jgkspsx]

4 hours ago, Mayhem said:

Ditto Diamond something something of London that 1000 copies were sold via Kickstarter.

Diamond Trust of London is not very expensive these days. I think the less limited post-kickstarter release is selling for like $25. 
 

EDIT: yeah, complete Kickstarter ones are only like $60. https://www.pricecharting.com/game/nintendo-ds/diamond-trust-of-london?q=diamond+trust+of+london

[Mayhem]

Wonder if that's just the game, or the whole package (you got a specialised envelope and a fake diamond and a few other flyers iirc).

[+jgkspsx]

One of those just went for $100: https://www.ebay.com/itm/Diamond-Trust-of-London-Nintendo-DS-Limited-Edition-344-1000-Complete-CIB-Rare-/304110291089

 

EDIT: although a sealed one recently went for $450. https://www.ebay.com/itm/RARE-SEALED-CiB-Diamond-Trust-of-London-Nintendo-DS-Limited-Edition-569-1000-/324564942572

[+GoldenWheels]

Karl is back at it....

 

 

 

Interesting to me...they state the guy who bought NA also tried to buy/did buy Sega Age, and Playstation Age. I wonder if Albert got any knocks on his door....

[Tempest]

1 hour ago, GoldenWheels said:

Karl is back at it....

Can anyone summarize that video?  I don't have an hour to watch.

[Austin]

On 12/1/2021 at 7:38 AM, GoldenWheels said:

Interesting to me...they state the guy who bought NA also tried to buy/did buy Sega Age, and Playstation Age. I wonder if Albert got any knocks on his door....

Sega Age and PS1 age were under the same umbrella as NintendoAge. I'd assume the guy that bought NA acquired those at the same time. Not that there was much happening on those sites..

[Tanooki]

@GoldenWheels @Austin Yes when Dain sold out, the whole thing was a big package deal that got exploited at multiple levels even he didn't comprehend at the time, and if the whole expose thing over WATA, HA, and the rest over the last six months says anything since he got hounded too, he was kind of hosed over as well.  All of the 'age' sites went with NA, so did the guys entire video game collection too, which those scum exploited as the Carolina Collection to puff up more gain and conning suckers for money.  There's a lot of dirt around it to say the least.

NA in dead, but the members who weren't terrible individual resurrected it as videogamesage.com and that place is far more nice, welcoming, and open -- none of the old coddling VGA/WATA stuff or all the other shenanigans the site got known for being not great about.  Sadly the database which was sought to abuse the most for the money racket, that's up in smoke basically.

[Mikebloke]

On 12/1/2021 at 1:50 PM, Tempest said:

Can anyone summarize that video?  I don't have an hour to watch.

Too Long Didn't Watch version:

 

The web of who worked/was a director of/funded Wata, Heritage Auctions and associated groups is far more complex than first thought (but not very exciting and mostly predictable).

Various members of these organisations tried to claim they weren't working for that organisation, despite pictures, videos, newspaper articles and TV programs showing and listing them as employees

A youtube Lawyer (a real lawyer, but one who does videos for youtube, does that make sense?) looks into the legality of whether it is price fixing, false advertisement (sad news: Its still pretty grey, and not clear cut).

Both Wata, Heritage Auctions made dull statements in response - including how it was a shame that Karl hadn't contacted them first for comment, despite the fact that Karl had contacted them first for comment.

[Rhomaios]

3 hours ago, Mikebloke said:

Too Long Didn't Watch version:

 

The web of who worked/was a director of/funded Wata, Heritage Auctions and associated groups is far more complex than first thought (but not very exciting and mostly predictable).

Various members of these organisations tried to claim they weren't working for that organisation, despite pictures, videos, newspaper articles and TV programs showing and listing them as employees

A youtube Lawyer (a real lawyer, but one who does videos for youtube, does that make sense?) looks into the legality of whether it is price fixing, false advertisement (sad news: Its still pretty grey, and not clear cut).

Both Wata, Heritage Auctions made dull statements in response - including how it was a shame that Karl hadn't contacted them first for comment, despite the fact that Karl had contacted them first for comment.

And in the process potentially violated FTC regulations by not disclosing their affiliations. Why is it so hard for some people to be ethical?