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ARM games compatibility and the Colecovison Expansion Module #1


johnnywc

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Hello all,

 

Does anybody know if there is an incompatibility with ARM games and the Colecovision expansion module #1 (the one that plays Atari 2600 games on the Colecovision)?  The reason I ask is that recently a review was posted for Zoo Keeper in the AtariAge store and the customer indicated that the game did *not* work on the expansion module #1 (and docked the review a star ;) ).  I'm thinking of picking one up on eBay (they seem to run about $35 - $45 dollars) but I would also need a Colecovision system (video-modded preferably) and test them myself, but before I go down that rabbit hole I was wondering if anyone has any feedback whether it's just ZK, all ARM games, etc.

 

EDIT: I'm tagging @Sprout (the person who gave the ZK review); hopefully this info will help resolve the issue with their expansion module as it seems that all CDFJ / ARM games work on others, including Zoo Keeper. ? 

 

Thanks!

John

 

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Heya John,

 

I have a CV expansion module #1 that I can test ZK and other ARM games on. I've just dug it out and will see if I can get it done tonight or at the latest tomorrow morning. It would be interesting to see! My CV is modded for RGB and I'll record my results when I test it.

 

- James

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5 hours ago, johnnywc said:

Hello all,

 

Does anybody know if there is an incompatibility with ARM games and the Colecovision expansion module #1 (the one that plays Atari 2600 games on the Colecovision)?  The reason I ask is that recently a review was posted for Zoo Keeper in the AtariAge store and the customer indicated that the game did *not* work on the expansion module #1 (and docked the review a star ;) ).  I'm thinking of picking one up on eBay (they seem to run about $35 - $45 dollars) but I would also need a Colecovision system (video-modded preferably) and test them myself, but before I go down that rabbit hole I was wondering if anyone has any feedback whether it's just ZK, all ARM games, etc.

 

Thanks!

John

I have a Colecovision and an expansion module 1 in storage, I can dig out and try myself. I have tested Harmony carts and found them to work on the expansion module, but the last I powered it up was in 2010 and that was before the ARM games. I'll look into it this week.

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Here you go John! Please excuse the TERRIBLE video quality, the RF out from the CV is being run through a VCR, but it achieved the goal... 

 

I also just smashed my head on an open cabinet door setting it up, oops.. blood everywhere!! ? But I'm back up and running after a quick lie down. I'll talk more about that on the show tomorrow! Hahahah.

 

I first tested RobotWar 2684 (older build) through the Harmony Encore and it worked great and then the retail cart of Zoo Keeper and it worked great too. So, all is good!

 

- James

 

 

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16 hours ago, batari said:

I have a Colecovision and an expansion module 1 in storage, I can dig out and try myself. I have tested Harmony carts and found them to work on the expansion module, but the last I powered it up was in 2010 and that was before the ARM games. I'll look into it this week.

Thanks Fred, appreciate it! :thumbsup: 

16 hours ago, ZeroPage Homebrew said:

Here you go John! Please excuse the TERRIBLE video quality, the RF out from the CV is being run through a VCR, but it achieved the goal... 

Thanks James!  Wow - that video quality *is* terrible ;), but it does serve it's purpose. :D 

16 hours ago, ZeroPage Homebrew said:

I also just smashed my head on an open cabinet door setting it up, oops.. blood everywhere!! ? But I'm back up and running after a quick lie down. I'll talk more about that on the show tomorrow! Hahahah.

Wow, you're literally giving your blood, sweat and tears to the homebrew community! :o   Seriously though - hope you're okay James. ?  If it leaves a scar, oh what a story it will be to tell... ;)  

16 hours ago, ZeroPage Homebrew said:

I first tested RobotWar 2684 (older build) through the Harmony Encore and it worked great and then the retail cart of Zoo Keeper and it worked great too. So, all is good!

Awesome, thanks!  That leaves the question as to why the game didn't work for this customer. :ponder:  I should probably look into getting a Colecovision /expansion module at some point, great excuse to pick one up. :P  

 

Thanks again!

John

 

 

 

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20 hours ago, johnnywc said:

Wow, you're literally giving your blood, sweat and tears to the homebrew community! :o   Seriously though - hope you're okay James. ?  If it leaves a scar, oh what a story it will be to tell... ;)  

Hahah, it's all in a day's work...  Luckily I don't think it'll leave a scar, we'll have to see once it's fully healed but so far so good!

 

- James

 

 

 

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I am going to try as well, but it will probably be on the weekend as I first I have to dig to get to the Coleco. I had the 2600 adapter, and I'm about 50% sure I still do. I do know my Coleco had some problems with a garbled screen, but seems like a common problem and I should try and fix it. 

 

I'll load up the demo versions on a Harmony and an Encore and see if there is any difference. Many years ago I did do some tests on the expanison module and the only difference I remember was the ZP ram started up with values of zero consistently, where a real 2600 was always randomized.

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Okay, I've tested the a bunch of CDFJ roms on a Colecovision Expansion port #1, and I don't see any issues with the CDFJ scheme. I did find an issue with the connection of the module into the Colecovision which I believe can lead to failures. More on that later.

 

To recap last time I had used my Colecovision I had some random garbled graphics. This seems to be a common issue with the console. Today I examined the console and took it apart to clean it. I Opened the door to the expansion port and was alarmed to see a lot of corrosion. However, upon disassembling the console I could see that it was limited to just the tin plate on the shield. I gave the PCB a good scrubbing on the connector with Isopropyl. Photos below include the serial numbers of my Colecovision and the Expansion Module #1.

 

Colecovision_ExpansionPort.thumb.jpg.df8e3b1894d583262f4fd9dffe38216a.jpg

 

Colecovision_PCB.thumb.jpg.21a93b2b5adf84a6184ddd4fcf125d10.jpg

 

Colecovision_Shield.thumb.jpg.7f5648a3fe9eff81182aecfd58af3ad3.jpg

 

Colecovision_SN.thumb.jpg.49a35864258c8de9cd179ba11d6bfbef.jpg

 

Colecovision_SN_Expansion_Module_1.thumb.jpg.37c738521c7baed635235977e87f406f.jpg

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I mechanically cycled the power switch many times before powering it on to help break any contaminants free. I tested a few Colecovision games and they all worked as they should, with no garbled graphics. Next I plugged the expansion port in and tried 2600 Ladybug. It worked on the first try, and many other times after that. However it suddenly stopped working and I got garbled graphics.

 

I did a bunch of trouble shooting including cartridge removal, cycling the power switch (slow, fast, putting more presure on side, etc...), and moving the expansion port around (lifting it up with respect to the console, pressing down, etc...). Finally I had an idea to remove and insert the expansion port several times to break and corrosion, oxidation, or contaminants free. After doing that everything worked, everytime.

 

My conclusion is that the connector for the module is the weak link, and that it is really deceptive as you can plug a game in and it works, and might work several times. I thought at first it was good because I had so many good clean startups.

 

sml20210904_104352.thumb.jpg.9df0fb97d30fdfb8d94a309445f7c378.jpg

 

sml20210904_104344.thumb.jpg.2fc084b47bf296ed494fcbf44d213665.jpg

 

sml20210904_102939.thumb.jpg.151f0e7024dd52a9b92ad14700027d72.jpg

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FWIW, I've done some additional testing on my end - details below.

 

Background - my brother bought two retail Zookeeper carts at the same time - one for each of us.

I had him bring his cartridge over this afternoon to allow for additional testing.

 

Results:

 

In testing with my Colecovision and two different 2600 expansion modules, and with both Zookeeper cartridges - neither works. Consistently. That seems to rule out the actual cartridges (unless something has changed compatibility-wise in the latest Zookeeper cartridge builds?). It also seems to rule out an issue specific to the expansion module, since two are affected, and I have no issues with any other cartridges, including the Harmony Encore. I'll need to test one of my expansion modules on his Colecovision next in the off chance something wacky about my Colecovision is affecting ONLY this cartridge I suppose?

 

Both cartridges work fine with a "real" 2600 (tested with a couple of Atari ones, and a couple of Sears ones). My cartridge also did not work with my 2600 Jr (single-chip version, with the blank spot for a ROM socket), but it's got some sound issues I'm working to resolve so I'll need to do some more testing, as I'd have sworn it worked on it when I initially did my testing a week or so back.

 

Zero issues with the Harmony Encore cart in the Colecovision. Zero issues with the Zookeeper demo on the Harmony cart. No issues with a few other 2600 cartridges I've tested that are handy.

 

I'd really prefer to use the Colecovision, since it's easy to just plug in the expansion module, and my Colecovision is already modded for composite output (whereas I don't have a 2600 modded - though I've got a kit on the way), and the expansion module takes up less space than a 2600 as well. Worst-case, I may just purchase the ROM version and drop it onto the Harmony Encore cart I suppose.

 

Good luck with your configuration @johnnywc - I'd be interested in hearing how it works! Also appreciate any insight others may have into why I'm having these issues. I'll update this post once I'm able to test with my brother's Colecovision otherwise.

 

 

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11 hours ago, Sprout said:

FWIW, I've done some additional testing on my end - details below.

Hi there!  Sorry you're having issues playing the ZK cart on your Colecovision expansion module and thanks so much for doing all of this testing and posting your results on this thread. :thumbsup:  I wish there was a way to reply to reviews directly but this is a good second option. ;)  

11 hours ago, Sprout said:

 

I'd really prefer to use the Colecovision, since it's easy to just plug in the expansion module, and my Colecovision is already modded for composite output (whereas I don't have a 2600 modded - though I've got a kit on the way), and the expansion module takes up less space than a 2600 as well. Worst-case, I may just purchase the ROM version and drop it onto the Harmony Encore cart I suppose.

Hopefully we can figure out why ZK isn't working on your setup.  There is no real difference between the demo and the full version ROMs (except that certain features are enabled/disabled) so I would expect the full version ROM to work on the Harmony Encore also. It'll be interesting to see if it works on your brother's Colecosion. ?

11 hours ago, Sprout said:

Good luck with your configuration @johnnywc - I'd be interested in hearing how it works! Also appreciate any insight others may have into why I'm having these issues. I'll update this post once I'm able to test with my brother's Colecovision otherwise.

 

Thanks!  I need to first find a Colecovision (would definitely like a modded one if possible; any suggestions?) and then pick up an expansion module off eBay so it will be a bit.

 

Thanks again and good luck to you too!

John

 

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Quick update-

 

Brother brought his Colecovision over (power supply included) - same exact issues with his. Very puzzling! The most we ever got was the AtariAge logo for a split second, and the first note of the accompanying startup music, which is what I'd seen with my Colecovision occasionally as well. Again - no issues with the Harmony Encore cart, or other carts with his configuration either.

 

Planning to pick up Wizard of Wor at some point, so I guess I'll see if it has issues as well?

 

Will update if I come across any new info.

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5 hours ago, Sprout said:

Quick update-

 

Brother brought his Colecovision over (power supply included) - same exact issues with his. Very puzzling! The most we ever got was the AtariAge logo for a split second, and the first note of the accompanying startup music, which is what I'd seen with my Colecovision occasionally as well. Again - no issues with the Harmony Encore cart, or other carts with his configuration either.

Thanks for the update... sorry there is an issue playing the game on your brother's Colecovision too! :?  As I mentioned in our PM, there is a way to burn the ZK image to your Harmony cart which basically turns your Harmony into a standalone ZK cart (you can do this with any game).  The ZK cart is the ZK rom burned to a Melody board, and the Melody board is basically a Harmony lite without the SD card interface, so in theory if it doesn't work on the ZK cart from AA it shouldn't work on the Harmony cart with the ZK ROM burned to the eeprom.  Perhaps Fred @batari can explain it better than I can (assuming what I'm saying is correct ;) ).

5 hours ago, Sprout said:

Planning to pick up Wizard of Wor at some point, so I guess I'll see if it has issues as well?

I hope it works! ?  Do you have any other ARM games that you can test with?  (Draconian, Space Rocks, etc.)

5 hours ago, Sprout said:

Will update if I come across any new info.

Thank you!

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Ok, after several PM's with John and some additional testing, a quick summary of our findings:

 

- Issues persist across two different Colecovisions, two different power supplies, two different 2600 expansion modules, and two different Zookeeper cart's.

My ColecoVision has a composite mod installed, but is otherwise stock. I modded my brothers for 4516 RAM at one point to deal with some bad 4116's, but it's using RF output otherwise.

- Installing the full ROM version on my Harmony Encore works without issue under firmware 1.06. Also seems fine if I install the Zookeeper ROM over the normal multi-cart code, to have it act like a stand-alone Zookeeper cart (ie, boots directly into Zookeeper). Used the DPC+ bank switching selection, in case that's helpful.

- Zero issues with various original 2600's (Atari/Sears vintage), but also didn't like my single-chip 2600 Jr (see earlier in the thread for details).

 

@batari - John suggested tagging you; any additional testing that could be helpful? I'm also within driving distance of Al (not sure how to tag him for this thread) and could loan him my ColecoVision setup for additional testing if that's of use?

 

Thanks!

Brent

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Did ZeroPage Homebrew and Omegamatrix use original ColecoVision power supplies or perhaps some aftermarket heavy duty solution? I'm thinking in case the expansion module doesn't get enough power. Unfortunately the ColecoVision has an uncommon power connector, otherwise it should be possible to find and jury-rig a heavy duty supply that does +5V, +12V, -5V to rule that out.

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Quote

Just as a sanity check, have the Zookeeper cartridges that don't work with expansion module been tested on a real Atari 2600 to confirm that the carts themselves don't have issues?

Yep - zero issues with "real" 2600's, both Atari and Sears (I've got 4 or 5 2600's I've picked up through the years). 

 

Quote

Did ZeroPage Homebrew and Omegamatrix use original ColecoVision power supplies or perhaps some aftermarket heavy duty solution? I'm thinking in case the expansion module doesn't get enough power. Unfortunately the ColecoVision has an uncommon power connector, otherwise it should be possible to find and jury-rig a heavy duty supply that does +5V, +12V, -5V to rule that out.

Unknown, but wouldn't suspect power since both the Harmony Encore and the dedicated Zookeeper are both "Melody" PCB-based, and I'd expect a similar power draw. Note that my brother's unit was modified to eliminate the 4116 triple-voltage RAM (using 4516 RAM), so that should drop the stress on his power supply (which I also rebuilt). I don't remember off the top of my head if there are other components in the ColecoVision using +12/-5, but it shouldn't place any more of a load on the +5 regardless...

 

If there is some significant different in power draw between the Harmony cart and the PCB that shipped in the Zookeeper, that could be worth exploring. I can fairly easily open up my ColecoVision and connect an external AT power supply (which carries +5, -5, and +12) that I have on my bench for repairing various PCB's to remove that as a concern...

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2 hours ago, Sprout said:

 

@batari - John suggested tagging you; any additional testing that could be helpful? I'm also within driving distance of Al (not sure how to tag him for this thread) and could loan him my ColecoVision setup for additional testing if that's of use?

 

Tagging @Albert so he's in the know. ;)  

 

@batari Fred, I asked Brent to tag you also as it seems that there is a difference between running ZK flashed to the eeprom of the Harmony Encore vs. a running the ROM from a Melody board in the ZK cart.  From my non-hardware viewpoint I would think these would be the same thing so I thought you might be able to determine what may be different between a Harmony Encore vs. a Melody board that may cause an incompatibility.  It is suggested that maybe there isn't enough power driving the ZK cart, but since it runs on the Harmony Encore (both as a ROM through the menu and also burned to the eeprom), I would assume (again, non-hardware guy here ;)  ) that the power draw would be similar for both?  (actually logic would suggest it would be *more* for the Encore since it has the SD card reader also).

 

Any help or suggestions would be great!

 

Thanks,

John

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2 hours ago, carlsson said:

Did ZeroPage Homebrew and Omegamatrix use original ColecoVision power supplies or perhaps some aftermarket heavy duty solution? I'm thinking in case the expansion module doesn't get enough power. Unfortunately the ColecoVision has an uncommon power connector, otherwise it should be possible to find and jury-rig a heavy duty supply that does +5V, +12V, -5V to rule that out.

You are correct, I was using an aftermarket power supply, a ColUSB, for my test.

 

- James

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Perhaps I was grabbing at thin air, but from my very limited experience power supplies can cause the most strange behaviors sometimes so unless there is a lot of hassle to open up the console and connect a different power source, it could be worth trying even if it in practice should make no difference. Does the HE have any extra capacitors that the other Melody board doesn't, so it might "buffer" power in another way?

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