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Dopy25

Looking for information on UAV traces or 5200 basic composite

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Working on installing a UAV into my 5200 and it worked until I read the 4050 is needed for reset functions to work. 

 

I heated up the plastic guide for the jumper pins and removed it, while desoldering each jumper pins to remove them, I ripped through a few of the traces. I went through with the 4050 soldering, hoping those traces weren't vital, after all, the UAV is quite universal.

 

The traces were needed. Now all I get is a distorted black and white image on screen. See attached image.

 

Basically I would like to know if anyone has a diagram of where the traces go from the dip pins and jumper pins through the board. I know the components are still good, unless tearing through those traces messed up a fuse or something but I'd like to think there would be no image in that case. I see an image. I can see Atari logo, and pacman. But I'm at a loss here for a working UAV. I won't mind wiring it in like a kit or like I did on my 7800 but I can't afford to buy a replacement. I've already sunk more money into this 5200 than I wanted but I thought it was a cool system so I bought it. The GTIA was broken, and the 4052 chips were bad. The console itself works on RF after I did the power mod, but I'm really looking forward to s video on this thing to make it closer to an arcade feel.

 

If it's impossible to get a trace map, can anyone point me to a basic composite install method? I have pretty much any component on hand to build one but I'm not finding any schematics for anything, only old threads discussing the possibility.

 

 

Any help is greatly appreciated.

 

If anyone has access to an image of the traces in that area, I would be ever grateful. I am not looking for schematics to rebuild one on my own, only looking for those specific traces and where they anchor.

 

Thank you.

PXL_20210922_033751409.jpg

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How about the logistics of it? Do all pins need to connect to the 4050 dip if I have the 4050 still connected in circuit? 

 

Do the jumper pins activate the dip pins? I can't let this UAV go to waste but I'm at a loss here and really need some help.

 

Thanks

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I'm confused...you mean you ripped traces on the UAV board itself or on the 5200 board where the 4050 was soldered in place? 

 

If it was the traces on the UAV, then none but @MacRorie has access to the actual schematics of the UAV as he owns the rights to it. If you are talking about the 4050 soldering on the 5200 mainboard, the schematics should help to determine which leg of the 4050 went to where to patch it with trace wire.

 

BTW from Bryan's original blog entry on installing the UAV into the 5200 there is this...

 

"Solder the 16-pin socket on top of the 4050. It is only necessary to solder pins 1, 3, 5, 7, 8, 9 and 11. Soldering pin 16 is probably a good idea as well just to secure all corners of the socket. With a reasonably small iron tip, you should be able to work between the 4050 and the Antic chip behind it."

 

However, I solder them all down when I do them just to keep the entire thing as secure as possible. The latest kits actually came with machine pin sockets. I don't normally like those, but it makes since in the case of the UAV since the pin headers you solder on are round pin anyway.

 

 

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1 hour ago, -^CrossBow^- said:

I'm confused...you mean you ripped traces on the UAV board itself or on the 5200 board where the 4050 was soldered in place? 

 

If it was the traces on the UAV, then none but @MacRorie has access to the actual schematics of the UAV as he owns the rights to it. If you are talking about the 4050 soldering on the 5200 mainboard, the schematics should help to determine which leg of the 4050 went to where to patch it with trace wire.

 

BTW from Bryan's original blog entry on installing the UAV into the 5200 there is this...

 

"Solder the 16-pin socket on top of the 4050. It is only necessary to solder pins 1, 3, 5, 7, 8, 9 and 11. Soldering pin 16 is probably a good idea as well just to secure all corners of the socket. With a reasonably small iron tip, you should be able to work between the 4050 and the Antic chip behind it."

 

However, I solder them all down when I do them just to keep the entire thing as secure as possible. The latest kits actually came with machine pin sockets. I don't normally like those, but it makes since in the case of the UAV since the pin headers you solder on are round pin anyway.

 

 

The UAV board. I removed all the jumper pins from it, and ripped some traces in the process.

 

I have however fixed it, with marlin's help. He was able to send me some very helpful information. I jumped the necessary traces and got a perfect image. 

 

PXL_20210923_200844896.thumb.jpg.f4b8bd448972a8fe5c4af5f69917ac4c.jpg

 

Figured I would test it without the 4050 since it did show an image the first time around.

 

Then I added the 4050 back in with the UAV soldered on top and got this shite of an image:

 

PXL_20210923_203639173.thumb.jpg.a53fde22755498776a2b8d1b6ec95149.jpg

 

It's dark, seems out of sync, and looks like a flaming pile of dog crap.

 

It does however still show a half acceptable image over RF but it's static. I don't like it.

 

Any idea what could be causing the dark image? I tried adjusting the pot on the UAV with no luck. I'm going to remove the 4050 again to see if it's an issue with both being attached. 

 

I have a pretty early 5200 board with everything socketed. What would be the issues if I left the 4050 off? I couldn't find anything other than a quick statement in one of your vids about reset not working. I assumed that means in game reset?

 

Besides RF not working because that won't matter to me right now, are there other negatives to leaving out the 4050? 

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This thing hates me so much. I'm sure of it. It's like I'm meant to throw money away that I don't have. FML.

 

I took off the 4050 and put the UAV back in without it. I'm not sure what happened now but it's the same image as the dark one above. It seems like there's something out of sync. The rainbow Atari logo at boot seems to move faster. I checked the color input and it's making contact, plus when I remove it, it goes black and white. 

 

I don't have money to get another UAV for this thing. I'm so pissed at it and at myself right now. If it wasn't for trying to keep the dumbass 4050 in place, I'd be playing this pacman in a superb S-video quality. Ugggghhhhh

 

ezgif-1-c179bd23969c.gif

Edited by Dopy25

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Ok so I swapped this UAV into my 7800 and it works like a champ. I'm going to leave it in there. That gives me a UAV in much better condition to work with for my 5200.

Now I just need dip pins to solder in place. Or to determine if I should solder those in at all or install like a kit.

 

Ok. Just bought stackable dip headers. They'll be here Saturday. That should do the trick.

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The 4050 is only needed to keep the RF intact. However on my 4 port daily driver, I couldn't get it come up at all without the 4050 in it. So I've been leaving the 4050 in place ever since and never had an issue with it. But I solder the socket on top of the 4050. If the 4050 is in a socket, then I actually remove it from the socket, desolder the original socket. Then solder the 4050 to the mainboard. That keeps everything low profile enough for me to put the Rf shielding back on. If you don't care about the RF shielding, then you can just solder a socket on top of the 4050 an leave the 4050 in the socket it was in originally. But the stability of the whole thing sitting that tall is bit how you doing as Dave Jones would say.

 

My guess is that something isn't making a good connection from the UAV to where it slots into the 4050s location. Or you have a weak solder joint on he UAV itself somewhere and installing and removing the 4050 from it might have been the cause.

 

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55 minutes ago, -^CrossBow^- said:

The 4050 is only needed to keep the RF intact. However on my 4 port daily driver, I couldn't get it come up at all without the 4050 in it. So I've been leaving the 4050 in place ever since and never had an issue with it. But I solder the socket on top of the 4050. If the 4050 is in a socket, then I actually remove it from the socket, desolder the original socket. Then solder the 4050 to the mainboard. That keeps everything low profile enough for me to put the Rf shielding back on. If you don't care about the RF shielding, then you can just solder a socket on top of the 4050 an leave the 4050 in the socket it was in originally. But the stability of the whole thing sitting that tall is bit how you doing as Dave Jones would say.

 

My guess is that something isn't making a good connection from the UAV to where it slots into the 4050s location. Or you have a weak solder joint on he UAV itself somewhere and installing and removing the 4050 from it might have been the cause.

 

Haha makes sense.

 

Ok so if my 4 port works without the 4050 I would be good? No other impact? I don't have the RF connected but I want to retain the ability to revert some day.

 

As mentioned, that UAV is now resting perfectly fine in my 7800. I have the one I got as a kit going in the 5200 but I ordered some stacking headers to install with it.

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Just have to remember to reinstall the 4050 in the future if you want or need the RF.

 

Here is one I just installed 10 min ago into a 2port model. I solder the socket directly on top of the 4050 and then snap the assembled UAV right into the socket.

20210923_214939.jpg

 

20210923_215001.jpg

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15 minutes ago, -^CrossBow^- said:

Just have to remember to reinstall the 4050 in the future if you want or need the RF.

 

Here is one I just installed 10 min ago into a 2port model. I solder the socket directly on top of the 4050 and then snap the assembled UAV right into the socket.

I dig the way that looks but I don't want to make the 4050 permanent. 

 

So it's ok to drop the UAV in the socket and change nothing else if it actually works? What was the note about jumping r2 & r3? Is that necessary?

 

I know there are so many variations of boards on the 5200 and that messes with things I don't quite understand.

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You are talking about Bryan's original install guide ehh? He states you jumper r2 and r3 if you remove the 4050, but again, I could NEVER get his original instructions to work for me the way they were written. You can remove the 4050 and loose RF output and have video from the UAV only at that point. Or, you can solder a socket on top of the 4050 as I did, leaving it in circuit and then attach the UAV on top of the 4050 and have both RF and the UAV video output.

 

Those are the only two options I've gotten to work.

 

Show what you have installed so far so I have a better understanding of what you have in place and can answer your questions better.

 

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38 minutes ago, -^CrossBow^- said:

You are talking about Bryan's original install guide ehh? He states you jumper r2 and r3 if you remove the 4050, but again, I could NEVER get his original instructions to work for me the way they were written. You can remove the 4050 and loose RF output and have video from the UAV only at that point. Or, you can solder a socket on top of the 4050 as I did, leaving it in circuit and then attach the UAV on top of the 4050 and have both RF and the UAV video output.

 

Those are the only two options I've gotten to work.

 

Show what you have installed so far so I have a better understanding of what you have in place and can answer your questions better.

 

I don't have anything installed currently. 

 

I had installed the UAV, alone. Nothing jumped, just adding the color input line from r17. R2 & R3 are stock. The output seemed to work fine.

 

I should have left it at that point.

 

After seeing your vids and a comment or 3 about a system reset not working (totally unsure what that even meant). I decided to clip off all the jumpers. Instead of doing how you showed in your vid, I heated up the guide to the jumpers and removed that. Then I desoldered all the jumpers. That's where I went wrong. I ripped through some of the traces. I'm told the board doesn't like a bunch of heat. Lesson learned.

 

I bodged the traces and reinstalled the UAV. It worked. So I went on with the 4050. I'm not sure if I messed up the bodge during that part or not but that's when I got the darker image above.

 

RF worked fine. The colors were normal, the image was just as ugly as I didn't want it. 

 

That's when I decided to install it in my 7800 because it minimizes solder points. It works great in there so I left it.

 

I bought these: https://www.amazon.com/dp/B07CWSXY7P/ref=cm_sw_r_apan_glt_fabc_P7YPMSFE7KE4A02RAG4K

 

And intend on using the stackable header pins. I'll mount the socket side on the top of the UAV so I can drop in the 4050 on top.

 

If that's not necessary and everything will work besides RF, I may just solder some regular header pins on the UAV.

 

I'll take a look at the original instructions and see what I can find out. TBA install information literally just said to watch your video. I think I had to dig for the video on a 4 port and still didn't realize the reason for the jumper on r2&3 or what it meant about losing reset on a 4 port if not leaving in the 4050. 

 

When I get the headers in on Sat, I'll post images of the install.

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Well, I've been considering removing the 4-port video from my channel. Reason being is that the 2-port video is better quality wise and, the exact same process I go through on the 2-port will work on the 4-port as well. I know this because ever since that 2-port video I've been using that method. The ONLY difference being that I do NOT install the 4050 on top of the UAV. I just leave it on the mainboard and solder the included socket with the kit to the top of the 4050.

 

This way, there isn't any chance of damage to the 4050 traces on the mainboard, RF will still function properly and the UAV works as well.

 

The jumper for R2 and R3, was ONLY needed if you removed the 4050. But again, I could never get that to work for me properly so I do not even mess with that. 

 

The basic steps I follow is literally this:

 

4-port / 2-port:

 

1. - remove 4050 from socket (if no socket then I leave the 4050 in place)

2. - desolder original 4050 socket (if one is present)

3. - solder 4050 directly to the main board (unless it is already like on many 2 port units)

4. - solder new socket on top of 4050

5. - solder jumpers to required spots on the UAV using clipped leads from other components. (I do NOT even bother to install that header bock or the jumpers since I don't plan to use the UAV in anything else)

6. - solder green terminal block on top side of output section on UAV. (You could install it on the bottom but it makes is more difficult to tighten the screws down doing this)

7. - clean flux residue on bottom of UAV board from previous soldering

8. - using a section of perfboard, I solder on the pin headers to the UAV. Short side of the pins go through the vias on the UAV.

9 - clean flux residue from the top side of the UAV from previous soldering

10. - plug UAV into the socket that was soldered previously on top of the 4050

11. - solder color in wire from bottom leg of R17 (Connects to pin 21 on GTAI) to Col in on UAV (right most connection on output of green terminal block)

11. - test everything works using test wiring connected to s-video and RCA jacks

12. - install s-video and RCA jacks

13. - install wiring from s-video and RCA jacks

14. - attach to output on green terminal block from UAV

15. - solder one lead a 2k resistor to the + lead of 10µf 16v or greater capacitor

16. - solder a section of wire from the other lead of the 2k resistor

17. - solder the other end of the wire from the resistor to the top leg of R50 near the center right of the mainboard just near the RF shield ground plane

18. - solder the wire from your RCA jacks for audio (or whatever jack you are using ) to the - lead of the 10µ capacitor

19. - Enjoy wonderful composite and s-video goodness from your 5200!

 

But I also outlined these steps in more detail in my actual pdf guides that are linked in the video descriptions.

https://tinyurl.com/vy6ldg6

 

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Awesome sauce, @-^CrossBow^- thank you for all the info. 

 

as of now, I still want to use sockets so I don't mess up any traces on the 5200 board. I'll just wait until Amazon shows up tomorrow to install the headers but I did do the jumpers, so this is what I have for now:

 

PXL_20210924_155129179.thumb.jpg.980df39389faa818d268632b0077388d.jpg

 

Don't mind the solder blobs on the +5 and ground, this was installed my 7800. Obviously those aren't used on the 5200. 

 

I used some dupont connectors in the 7800 so I just left those and will do the same in the 5200. I should be ok on the socket as long as the new header sits lower than the terminal block would. 

 

Any idea what jumping R2 & R3 actually does? I get a good image without them jumped and only the UAV installed. I know you said that's only if you don't keep the 4050 in line but I'm still not sure what that does to the system 🤷🏼‍♂️.

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Why be worried about solder on the +5 and GND? I actually do that anyway even when I'm not using the pads to help prevent corrosion to those pads should they be needed in the future. Look at my pic I posted and you will see that there is solder on the +5 and GND as well.

 

Jumpering R2 and R3 was to restore signal that would have gone through the 4050 but is broken when you remove it. Again, that was only needed if you removed the 4050. Or at least, that is what Bryan originally wrote up in his 5200 instructions at the time. He decided with all the issues that removing the 4050 was causing in some instances (Like I was reporting on the systems I was trying it with), that it would be best to leave it. But to keep the installations simple, he was going to redesign the UAV to have a 4050 encorporated within it that could be used as needed for installs like the 5200. 

 

Basically with the 4050 on the UAV already, you would use a different jumper configuration to pass the signals through the new 4050. This way, you could remove the original 4050 and just plug the UAV into the old 4050 socket without worry in regards to breaking the RF etc... But this design change never came to pass. About 2 years ago I submitted mockup design changes to MacRorie with additional vias inline so that you could easily solder the 4050 onto the UAV without worrying about the pin headers you also needed to have soldered. Basically it was a slightly longer UAV to allow for soldering in the pin headers, and then allow for soldering in the 4050 on top afterwards. Still some tight spaces to get an iron into, but it would have made it something easy to add as needed.

 

Now there is another need to have had that 4050 in place as it relates to the 7800 and using a 4050 to fix timing on the chroma signals from the MARIA IC. So it would have been cool if he could have designed that into place and it would have had several uses depending on how things were jumpered to configure the UAV.

 

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1 hour ago, -^CrossBow^- said:

Why be worried about solder on the +5 and GND? I actually do that anyway even when I'm not using the pads to help prevent corrosion to those pads should they be needed in the future. Look at my pic I posted and you will see that there is solder on the +5 and GND as well.

I didn't want anyone to think I planned on wiring in those 2 connections in addition to installing in the socket. No biggie. What you're saying makes sense as well.

 

1 hour ago, -^CrossBow^- said:

Jumpering R2 and R3 was to restore signal that would have gone through the 4050 but is broken when you remove it. Again, that was only needed if you removed the 4050. Or at least, that is what Bryan originally wrote up in his 5200 instructions at the time. He decided with all the issues that removing the 4050 was causing in some instances (Like I was reporting on the systems I was trying it with), that it would be best to leave it. But to keep the installations simple, he was going to redesign the UAV to have a 4050 encorporated within it that could be used as needed for installs like the 5200. 

I'm still not sure what it actually does though. Is it absolutely necessary IF I have a good image without jumping them?

 

1 hour ago, -^CrossBow^- said:

Basically with the 4050 on the UAV already, you would use a different jumper configuration to pass the signals through the new 4050. This way, you could remove the original 4050 and just plug the UAV into the old 4050 socket without worry in regards to breaking the RF etc... But this design change never came to pass. About 2 years ago I submitted mockup design changes to MacRorie with additional vias inline so that you could easily solder the 4050 onto the UAV without worrying about the pin headers you also needed to have soldered. Basically it was a slightly longer UAV to allow for soldering in the pin headers, and then allow for soldering in the 4050 on top afterwards. Still some tight spaces to get an iron into, but it would have made it something easy to add as needed.

That would be super! I hope it's considered. That's kind of like what I'm hoping to accomplish with stackable headers.

 

1 hour ago, -^CrossBow^- said:

Now there is another need to have had that 4050 in place as it relates to the 7800 and using a 4050 to fix timing on the chroma signals from the MARIA IC. So it would have been cool if he could have designed that into place and it would have had several uses depending on how things were jumpered to configure the UAV.

 

I have seen some of the posts about adding this in for a better image and compatibility. I have yet to explore this. I might have to forego this in mine with the condition that UAV is in. I have to see how it gets wired in. Right now, the image in my 7800 also seems perfect. I'm happy with it anyway. I'll have to check into this at another time.

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Finished my install. Here is a pic. The ports are pretty generic so I didn't take a pic but those are on the expansion port cover like most and I used a 4 pole trrs jack for audio/composite, and an svideo jack. I didn't want to drill too many holes because my drill press seems wobbly. It was my grandpas harbor freight special probably as old as harbor freight.

 

The stackable headers I got were slightly tall but only because the legs were long as hell. I trimmed off about an eighth of an inch on each pin and now it sits perfect. It now fits under the RF shield. The other issue is that the 4050 pins are apparently very narrow compared to those pin headers so I twisted each leg of the 4050 so it stays in place.

 

 

PXL_20210926_001359049.jpg

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That looks as if it would sit at about the same height as the method I use currently. 

 

Are your running the audio straight off R50? I always put a 2k resistor and 10µf cap inline from that point to the actual audio jacks. Without the resistor at least, the audio from that point is too hot and distorts easily on most AV equipment which, is how everything in my game room is connected up.

 

Here is the final installation of the one I posted above that is now ready to go back home:

 

UAV_Overview.thumb.jpg.ea41e68e67e86caf3dfa472a2a5867bd.jpg

 

And I also use the expansion plate for the AV jacks. I use standard RCAs with an s-video. I actually drill everything by hand but have made templates out of plastic sheets that I tape to the surface with small pilot holes already in them. I then just use a 1/16 bit to drill through the pilot on the template and into the plastic. From there I have forstner bits to finish the job. What you don't see in this pic of the expansion plate is the epoxy that is behind it to make sure it stays in place. Over time, the plates will pop out from plugging and unplugging cables from them. Epoxy in the inside corners and along the tabs helps to keep it more secure.

 

av_ext_detail2.thumb.jpg.0ae2c13565fc6bbf673c3d9b4f47079d.jpg

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11 hours ago, -^CrossBow^- said:

Are your running the audio straight off R50? I always put a 2k resistor and 10µf cap inline from that point to the actual audio jacks. Without the resistor at least, the audio from that point is too hot and distorts easily on most AV equipment which, is how everything in my game room is connected up.

Nope. I followed your advice on that, the only difference is my resistor and cap are near the connections on the expansion port cover.

 

I did not use any epoxy on the cover because it seems to be ridiculously snug. I might open it up and do that though. I think I need some on the back of my svideo jack anyway. It's the kind that pops into place. 

 

As far as height, it sits low enough to fit under the RF shield so I'm happy with it.

 

Thanks for all your help and info! Much appreciated.

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Most welcome!

 

And yeah, I use the s-vid jacks that have a securing nut on the back of them but they still slip and turn due to the smooth nature of the plastic. So I usually apply some expoxy on the edge of the s-video jack too on the inside to make sure it won't go anywhere. Some of the expansion plates do seem snug at first. But again, once they have been popped out the first time, they will pop out easier after that. I had to go to town with some epoxy on one of the last two I just did because it arrived with two of the snap tabs on one side completely missing. Didn't have a choice but to layer it on thick and unfortunately it can be seen seeping out from the edges of the plate on the back but that was the best I could do in that case.

 

I think I read somewhere that Brad at Best might actually sell those expansion plates but I'm not sure I'm on his 'will sell too' currently.

 

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