3.5 Floppy drive question. Which is best?

[Gilbyph]

Good morning all!

I was dismantling old computer systems for disposal and came across some 3.5 floppy drives. I don't currently have a PEB with a 3.5 drive in it, but have always wanted one. I removed 3 different drives and want to know which would be best to keep. Two are Sony MPF920 (one is T/B53 and the other is T/B63, I doubt there is a difference between the two, but I'm throwing it out there just in case) and the other is a TEAC FD-235HG. I looked up in this forum that the Sony is TI compatible, but found no information on the TEAC. I've included a picture but can provide more information if needed.

Thanks in advance!

[+arcadeshopper]

Good morning all! I was dismantling old computer systems for disposal and came across some 3.5 floppy drives. I don't currently have a PEB with a 3.5 drive in it, but have always wanted one. I removed 3 different drives and want to know which would be best to keep. Two are Sony MPF920 (one is T/B53 and the other is T/B63, I doubt there is a difference between the two, but I'm throwing it out there just in case) and the other is a TEAC FD-235HG. I looked up in this forum that the Sony is TI compatible, but found no information on the TEAC. I've included a picture but can provide more information if needed.

Thanks in advance!

 

The best 3.5" drive to use with a TI is a 720k 80 track dsdd drive. 

I'm sure you can look up these drives and see if any of them are but likely if they're from PCs they are 1.44mb drives. You could use one in DSDD mode.. but it will never work on a 4A in 1.44mb mode no controller made for the 4A supports that mode. Using high density drives as double density drives can be problematic reading the discs on other drives especially double density drives ymmv.

 

Likely you have a Dssd 40 track controller anyway unless you have a 3rd party controller. The ti controller can be modded to be 80 track.. so without mods the most you can use the drive for is 180k dssd regardless as to it's capabilities...

 

 

 

 

 

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[RXB]

I have been using PC 3.5 Drives from all types of computers even a Apple Floppy works but of course only that drive works with those disks made.

Currently using 2 Mitsubishi 3.5 drives and have spares.

[+OLD CS1]

3.5" drives are fairly universal, bearing in mind the caveats pointed out by @arcadeshopper.  5.25" drives, on the other hand, can be a real PITA: 360k and below are generally interchangeable with the appropriate controllers, but HD drives will have varied results (usually following long sessions of frustration.)

[+mizapf]

Don't 1.4 MiB drives (3.5) fall back to DD (720K) when the HD hole of the disk is closed? This should also entail a different write head current.

[+arcadeshopper]

Don't 1.4 MiB drives (3.5) fall back to DD (720K) when the HD hole of the disk is closed? This should also entail a different write head current.

Yes so as I said it'll work but I have had issues reading those disks in other 720k drives. Ymmv

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[+OLD CS1]

2 hours ago, mizapf said:

Don't 1.4 MiB drives (3.5) fall back to DD (720K) when the HD hole of the disk is closed? This should also entail a different write head current.

Yes, and it will read and write DD disks just fine.  However, while I have not experienced this for myself, I have heard tell and read technical descriptions of why DD disks written in HD drives may have problems being read on other drives.

 

From my perspective, the technical details seem to ride on a wave of technological Voodoo above my head.  There is no difference in track widths for a 3.5" DD and HD as there is between 5.25" DD and HD.  Both DD and HD encoding is MFM and run at the same spindle speed, unlike 5.25", just that HD is a higher bit-rate (500kbps versus 250kbps.)  You know this, but I mention this for the benefit of others.

 

So, really, my shoulders shrug on this aspect.

 

I can speak more confidently about the dangers of using HD media for DD recording.  I have had HD media with DD recordings fail on me in weird and random ways, and I can much better understand the technical issues here.

 

So, yeah,

1 hour ago, arcadeshopper said:

Ymmv

What he said.

[Brufnus]

8 hours ago, arcadeshopper said:

The best 3.5" drive to use with a TI is a 720k 80 track dsdd drive. 

I'm sure you can look up these drives and see if any of them are but likely if they're from PCs they are 1.44mb drives. You could use one in DSDD mode.. but it will never work on a 4A in 1.44mb mode no controller made for the 4A supports that mode. Using high density drives as double density drives can be problematic reading the discs on other drives especially double density drives ymmv.

 

Likely you have a Dssd 40 track controller anyway unless you have a 3rd party controller. The ti controller can be modded to be 80 track.. so without mods the most you can use the drive for is 180k dssd regardless as to it's capabilities...

 

 

 

 

 

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I'm not sure that's entirely correct. I haven't had any experience with 1.44 MB drives on the TI, but the HFDC handles it perfectly fine on my Geneve (perhaps I should test it on a TI someday). I'd think it would be up to the controller to handle that format, not the computer?

[+arcadeshopper]

43 minutes ago, Brufnus said:

I'm not sure that's entirely correct. I haven't had any experience with 1.44 MB drives on the TI, but the HFDC handles it perfectly fine on my Geneve (perhaps I should test it on a TI someday). I'd think it would be up to the controller to handle that format, not the computer?

The Geneve is not a 4A it has a custom DSR in mdos that does support high-density disks. File allocation table in the regular DSR that is used on a 4A does not have enough space and does not work also I don't think anything on the 4A will even format a disk to that format. The only controller that has this capacity is a myarc HFDC on a Geneve.

 

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[Brufnus]

1 minute ago, arcadeshopper said:

The Geneve is not a 4A it has a custom DSR in mdos that does support high-density disks. File allocation table in the regular DSR that is used on a 4A does not have enough space and does not work also I don't think anything on the 4A will even format a disk to that format. The only controller that has this capacity is a myarc HFDC on a Geneve.

 

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Oh, okay... then I don't have to test that on a TI, I guess.  

Edited September 27, 2021 by Brufnus

[globeron]

16 hours ago, arcadeshopper said:

Yes so as I said it'll work but I have had issues reading those disks in other 720k drives. Ymmv

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And watch out that the disks do not get stuck in the drive with whatever tape is used to cover the hole. 

 

But my TI has. 1x 5.25, 1x 3.5 and 1x Gotek with BWG controller DS/DD

And geneve 1x 3.5 and 1x gotek. With corcomp controller DS/DD

[Gilbyph]

Thanks all for the good replies! @arcadeshopper, I don't currently have a disc system or even a PEB. I grew up with the official TI tape recorder. Good times, but I've always wanted to upgrade to disc, for obvious reasons.

So, most HD 3.5 drives work pretty reliably with the TI, but can't use the 1.44mb and may not be compatible with drives other that the one that wrote the disk. Does this mean the best option is to find a DD drive, especially since there is no benefit from a HD (other than the fact I have a HD in my hand, but would have to find and buy a DD if I go that route)?

As I just mentioned, I would also have to look for a PEB and disk controller. I just looked on ebay and found none. I know there are several different controllers out there. Are there some I should avoid? I'm assuming DSDD is the best controller that is "findable and affordable" for the system, though I have heard of modifications that can be done to the TI disk controller that will change it from 40 track to 80 track. Does that modification turn the controller from SD to DD, or is it unrelated?

Some of you may be thinking that since I don't have a disk controller or even a PEB that I should look towards other options such as TIPI or SD card reader or other such method, but I've always wanted a disk system and still hope to one day have one.

 

Extra credit, not quite on topic question:
It's my understanding that there are several disk controllers out there with different capabilities. Obviously 5.25" and 3.5" drives can be used with these, and I've even heard some can handle hard drives, but what else can be connected to a TI with the correct controller? Anyone ever hook up an 8" floppy drive, CD-ROM drive, CD-RW drive, Zip drive, Tape drive or other storage device? Just curious.

 

Edited September 28, 2021 by Gilbyph

[+arcadeshopper]

 

5 hours ago, Gilbyph said:

Thanks all for the good replies! [mention=25598]arcadeshopper[/mention], I don't currently have a disc system or even a PEB. I grew up with the official TI tape recorder. Good times, but I've always wanted to upgrade to disc, for obvious reasons.
So, most HD 3.5 drives work pretty reliably with the TI, but can't use the 1.44mb and may not be compatible with drives other that the one that wrote the disk. Does this mean the best option is to find a DD drive, especially since there is no benefit from a HD (other than the fact I have a HD in my hand, but would have to find and buy a DD if I go that route)?
As I just mentioned, I would also have to look for a PEB and disk controller. I just looked on ebay and found none. I know there are several different controllers out there. Are there some I should avoid? I'm assuming DSDD is the best controller that is "findable and affordable" for the system, though I have heard of modifications that can be done to the TI disk controller that will change it from 40 track to 80 track. Does that modification turn the controller from SD to DD, or is it unrelated?
Some of you may be thinking that since I don't have a disk controller or even a PEB that I should look towards other options such as TIPI or SD card reader or other such method, but I've always wanted a disk system and still hope to one day have one.
 
Extra credit, not quite on topic question:
It's my understanding that there are several disk controllers out there with different capabilities. Obviously 5.25" and 3.5" drives can be used with these, and I've even heard some can handle hard drives, but what else can be connected to a TI with the correct controller? Anyone ever hook up an 8" floppy drive, CD-ROM drive, CD-RW drive, Zip drive, Tape drive or other storage device? Just curious.
 

 

fixed below
 

 

[+arcadeshopper]

5 hours ago, Gilbyph said:

Thanks all for the good replies! @arcadeshopper, I don't currently have a disc system or even a PEB. I grew up with the official TI tape recorder. Good times, but I've always wanted to upgrade to disc, for obvious reasons.

So, most HD 3.5 drives work pretty reliably with the TI, but can't use the 1.44mb and may not be compatible with drives other that the one that wrote the disk. Does this mean the best option is to find a DD drive, especially since there is no benefit from a HD (other than the fact I have a HD in my hand, but would have to find and buy a DD if I go that route)?

As I just mentioned, I would also have to look for a PEB and disk controller. I just looked on ebay and found none. I know there are several different controllers out there. Are there some I should avoid? I'm assuming DSDD is the best controller that is "findable and affordable" for the system, though I have heard of modifications that can be done to the TI disk controller that will change it from 40 track to 80 track. Does that modification turn the controller from SD to DD, or is it unrelated?

Some of you may be thinking that since I don't have a disk controller or even a PEB that I should look towards other options such as TIPI or SD card reader or other such method, but I've always wanted a disk system and still hope to one day have one.

 

Extra credit, not quite on topic question:
It's my understanding that there are several disk controllers out there with different capabilities. Obviously 5.25" and 3.5" drives can be used with these, and I've even heard some can handle hard drives, but what else can be connected to a TI with the correct controller? Anyone ever hook up an 8" floppy drive, CD-ROM drive, CD-RW drive, Zip drive, Tape drive or other storage device? Just curious.

 

 

Check out the FAQ for info on hard disk controllers, and the modern solution TIPI which replaces all that with SD card storage

https://www.arcadeshopper.com/wp/ti-99-4a-faq/

 

I don't know why anyone would hook up an 8" drive as it's even less storage than a 5.25" 

 

I have seen cdrom and zip and also syquests on the SCSI controllers (no longer sold) and they pretty much worked as hard disks, cdrom needed special commercial software to even read.. no tapes ever worked that I know of

 

most people just hook up a GOTEK to whatever controller they have (MOSTLY TI DSSD max 40 track or 80 track with mods) or use a TIPI and ignore drives completely 

 

Greg 

 

PS I have Pboxes in my store at arcadeshopper.com as well as many other products, Ebay is a speculators market where they are hoping for way too much money 

[+OLD CS1]

17 minutes ago, arcadeshopper said:

I don't know why anyone would hook up an 8" drive as it's even less storage than a 5.25"

Um, excuse me, sir, but my 8" drive and disks can do 1MB.   But, yeah, you have to be some kind of nut to want to use them regularly.  It is a chore to hook them up, but not impossible.  I did a run about (OMG) eight years ago to recover some data from an 8" floppy.

 

Seriously.  The 99/4 system was never paired with an 8" drive.  No reason to do it now unless to gain some kind of weird nerd flex.

[+arcadeshopper]

Um, excuse me, sir, but my 8" drive and disks can do 1MB. [emoji4]  But, yeah, you have to be some kind of nut to want to use them regularly.  It is a chore to hook them up, but not impossible.  I did a run about (OMG) eight years ago to recover some data from an 8" floppy.
 
Seriously.  The 99/4 system was never paired with an 8" drive.  No reason to do it now unless to gain some kind of weird nerd flex.

But how would you format them?

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[Gilbyph]

Yeah, I know 8" floppy drive is a step in the wrong direction from a 5.25 or 3.5. I just always find it fascinating what talented enthusiasts can do! Nerd flex for the win!

[+OLD CS1]

2 hours ago, arcadeshopper said:

But how would you format them?

Jokes like this open rabbit holes...

[Krebizfan]

While it does not matter to the TI-99/4A, the TEAC FD-235HG is a 3-mode drive capable of handling 1.2 MB formats in addition to the usual 720K and 1.44MB formats. That could be helpful with some jumper adjustments to make it easier to replace 8" drives on systems that used to use it. Also beneficial if one expects to import a lot of 3.5" floppies with data from Japan since a number of Japanese systems standardized on the 1.2MB format. 

[+OLD CS1]

2 hours ago, Krebizfan said:

TEAC FD-235HG is a 3-mode drive capable of handling 1.2 MB formats in addition to the usual 720K and 1.44MB formats.

I picked up three of these drives recently for data recovery.

[GDMike]

I found this article recently

https://history-computer.com/floppy-disk/

[Gilbyph]

Pretty interesting read. Thank you!