Forgive my ignorance on this one

[rocketmonkey101]

Just picked up an 8-bit computer recently and I don't know much about the relationship between 5200 and 8-bit aside that they are closely related. So I have a couple of questions firstly; it possible to play 5200 roms on an 8-bit?  Secondly, I want to get into programming 8-bit and I understand Assembly is where the real power lies. Is the "correct" path to learn BASIC before Assembly or is the effort involved with learning the same with out having that reference? (perhaps this is more of an opinion related question but I'm still interested in opinions on the subject) - Thanks!

[+Nezgar]

5 minutes ago, rocketmonkey101 said:

it possible to play 5200 roms on an 8-bit? 

Not directly. But most of the 5200 games have been ported to the 8-bits by remapping the hardware I/O addresses used and adding a handler to translate the joystick inputs.

 

5 minutes ago, rocketmonkey101 said:

Is the "correct" path to learn BASIC before Assembly

Depends what you're after... They are completely different... Small/Fast efficient code with significantly more learning curve? Choose assembly. Low learning curve but slow/iterpreted code, choose BASIC.   Or write the bulk of the program in BASIC, and write speed critical functions in assembly to be called by BASIC as subroutines.

[invisible kid]

I would encourage playing around in BASIC first, and that would be much more organic on a computer opposed to the 5200. Atari 8 bit BASIC is relatively user-friendly and very rich. You could even incorporate "assembly" routines and call them from BASIC.

[scotty]

Check out "8-Bit and More" on YouTube.   He has posted a bunch of great video's on learning assembly language on the Atari 8-bit line.   Sadly, I am really short on time, but this is my path when I do finally get serious about learning it after all these years.   Also, Get the Following books from Archive.org.

 

De Re Atari

Mapping the Atari (and or Mastery Memory Map)

Atari 130XE Machine Language for the Absolute Beginner

Atari Roots

The Users Guide to the Atari

Your Atari Computer

 

These are all must have books.

 

Also, Use Mac65 instead of Assembly Editor, as it is compatible and a LOT faster.

 

[zzip]

1 hour ago, rocketmonkey101 said:

Just picked up an 8-bit computer recently and I don't know much about the relationship between 5200 and 8-bit aside that they are closely related. So I have a couple of questions firstly; it possible to play 5200 roms on an 8-bit?  Secondly, I want to get into programming 8-bit and I understand Assembly is where the real power lies. Is the "correct" path to learn BASIC before Assembly or is the effort involved with learning the same with out having that reference? (perhaps this is more of an opinion related question but I'm still interested in opinions on the subject) - Thanks!

The 8-bit and 5200 are just different enough to be incompatible.  

Still, most 5200 games that were unique to the 5200 have been "unofficially" ported to the 8-bit, and many 8-bit games have been converted to 5200.

 

The advantage of learning BASIC first is you can quickly and easily test things.    Assembly isn't very forgiving of errors, they usually hangs the system and require reboot, so if your code works in BASIC first, that will help you when you do it in assembly.

 

Other options are compiled languages:  you can find compilers for BASIC,  C, Pascal and other languages.

[Keatah]

It's been said mostly by BASIC's detractors and dumbasses from dartmouth that learning it first hinders your ability to move into structured languages AND Assembly too. Ruins you for life they say.

[xrbrevin]

Here is a useful resource you may not be aware of:

http://www.atarimania.com/list_documents_atari-400-800-xl-xe-_8.html

several of those suggested by Scotty are in the books section

[scotty]

https://commodore.bombjack.org/atari/atari-books.htm   Is another good one,

 

 

[xrbrevin]

be careful mentioning that brand name on here - might cause some friction! ?

 

[+Stephen]

18 minutes ago, xrbrevin said:

be careful mentioning that brand name on here - might cause some friction! ?

 

Speaking of friction, it sure does cause a lot of butt hurt in some people around here!

[bfollowell]

21 minutes ago, xrbrevin said:

be careful mentioning that brand name on here - might cause some friction! ?

 

 

I never understood all that silliness. Even back in the day I felt it was silly. Today it borders on ridiculous!

 

[bfollowell]

37 minutes ago, scotty said:

https://commodore.bombjack.org/atari/atari-books.htm   Is another good one,

 

 

 

That looks like an awesome set of books. I may have to look into downloading some of those. I've seen many of them on other sites, but there are a few on there that I don't recall seeing before.

 

Thanks for sharing!

 

[xrbrevin]

some people took it more seriously than 'amusing banter' but the fact is we all benefited from the various competing systems. they developed and improved at a fast pace for this reason.

there was always room for all the different machines to co-exist and they all have pros and cons.

it wouldve been a dull environment with fewer options for sure

[bfollowell]

1 minute ago, xrbrevin said:

some people took it more seriously than 'amusing banter' but the fact is we all benefited from the various competing systems. they developed and improved at a fast pace for this reason.

there was always room for all the different machines to co-exist and they all have pros and cons.

it wouldve been a dull environment with fewer options for sure

 

Oh, I didn't think your post was serious. I only meant that the old system wars, and those that still feel that way are silly.

 

[xrbrevin]

1 minute ago, bfollowell said:

 

Oh, I didn't think your post was serious. I only meant that the old system wars, and those that still feel that way are silly.

 

i agree, we should appreciate the like-mindedness of other system users rather than focus on their choice of system

i posted the image for amusement only, not to cause any antagonism

[+kheller2]

4 hours ago, Keatah said:

It's been said mostly by BASIC's detractors and dumbasses from dartmouth that learning it first hinders your ability to move into structured languages AND Assembly too. Ruins you for life they say.

I wish some of today’s programmers had learned BASIC, instead of nothing.  

[+kheller2]

1 hour ago, bfollowell said:

 

I never understood all that silliness. Even back in the day I felt it was silly. Today it borders on ridiculous!

 

Could I substitute liberal and conservative into that same thought…. ?

[scotty]

9 hours ago, bfollowell said:

 

That looks like an awesome set of books. I may have to look into downloading some of those. I've seen many of them on other sites, but there are a few on there that I don't recall seeing before.

 

Thanks for sharing!

 

Always glad to help.

[TGB1718]

8 hours ago, kheller2 said:

I wish some of today’s programmers had learned BASIC, instead of nothing.

Very true, I started with BASIC and although moved to Assembler and later "C", BASIC is still

a good way to prototype code/test out ideas, still do it today

 

[Mclaneinc]

Learn BASIC first, don't do what I did and go straight to assembly, BASIC gives you firm roots in understanding that you can then build on in assembly..

 

Too late for me

 

 

[Pokeypy]

I'm not sure about it. When you learn BASIC first, you'll go in Assembly "What? Why is this so complicated? I can't even print anything?" and won't get far. That's rather common, as common today as it was back then. And is also, what happened to me.

But when you start directly in Assembly, you may have a different experience, that could be interesting.

Quote

I wish some of today’s programmers had learned BASIC, instead of nothing.

Today’s programmers can write in Python, which isn't much more difficult than BASIC, even easier in a sense, and can write code, that runs faster (on a modern PC) than Assembly on an 8-bit machine.

So the question is more, why do you want to bother with Assembly? It's tough as nails, and you won't use it on a modern PC. You just don't need to.

Which means: Unless you go retro, you won't need it in all your life.

Edited September 29, 2021 by Pokeypy

[derSammler]

1 hour ago, Pokeypy said:

Today’s programmers can write in Python, which isn't much more difficult than BASIC, even easier in a sense, and can write code, that runs faster (on a modern PC) than Assembly on an 8-bit machine.

So the question is more, why do you want to bother with Assembly? It's tough as nails, and you won't use it on a modern PC. You just don't need to.

Which means: Unless you go retro, you won't need it in all your life.

Because Assembly is still faster. Also, learning Assembly means understanding the hardware. Being a programmer myself, I know quite a few peers who can code in modern scripting-like languages like Python, but are too dumb to even know how to upgrade RAM in their PCs.

 

I wish Assembly would still be heavily used on modern PCs, as it uses the hardware much better with less overhead. We could run the same software with the same speed on older, slower hardware.

Edited September 29, 2021 by derSammler

[_The Doctor__]

I'd suggest ACTION! as a step into programming and Assembly language. Learn them at the same time.

[Mclaneinc]

Would be nice but folks tend to want to cover multi platforms, in this case I'm talking about MAME, in assembly 99% of the games would fly but they still add things like the dreamcast which CRAWL (thankfully Redream is around), so yeah, I wish more was assembly based but I also need a new PC as well

 

And yes, I'm aware of the hardsdhip of doing it assembly and trying to support multiple OS's and hardware, just voicing a forlorn wish

Edited September 29, 2021 by Mclaneinc

[Mclaneinc]

4 minutes ago, _The Doctor__ said:

I'd suggest ACTION! as a step into programming and Assembly language. Learn them at the same time.

Very good idea...