What next?

[drac030]

40 minutes ago, Faicuai said:

I will lit every candle and go to every Church I find on the road... I promise. 8-))

Just, as above, let me know, once you succeed

 

In any case, I surely do prefer what exists to something what currently is vague wording only.

 

"Virtualize"? I.e. run in virtual time? So, have CPU running at 400 MHz (1.773 x 225), and generate VBL 11000 times per second? And DLI accordingly faster? As I said, just have it built and coded, then we will see what we are talking about. For now, just try to lit candles and visiting churches. I recommend praying to St. Anthony at these occasions

[drac030]

3 minutes ago, ivop said:

That's as much an Atari as putting a 400MHz FPGA in a real Atari.

What really baffles me in this type of argumentation, is that it is often raised by people who only use x-GHz PC and an emulator, and still seem to consider that an Atari, eventhough there is no Atari custom chips there, no Atari hardware at all, just some kind of historical documentary real-time movie they can replay on their PC.

 

But, on the other hand, an actual extension board for an actual Atari computer with actual 6500-line CPU on it is apparently "not Atari enough". Heh.

[ivop]

2 minutes ago, drac030 said:

What really baffles me in this type of argumentation, is that it is often raised by people who only use x-GHz PC and an emulator, and still seem to consider that an Atari, eventhough there is no Atari custom chips there, no Atari hardware at all, just some kind of historical documentary real-time movie they can replay on their PC.

I don't consider that Atari either. It's nice during development, but ALL my code runs on real hardware without any enhancements. Sometimes you need 48kB or 64kB, but for example Pokey Explorer runs on an unmodified 600XL with 16kB. It was written last year.

 

2 minutes ago, drac030 said:

But, on the other hand, an actual extension board for an actual Atari computer with actual 6500-line CPU on it is apparently "not Atari enough". Heh.

You are right in that it is more Atari than an emulator, but for me the charm to retro computing is doing things within the existing limitations. Adding high speed CPU's, even if they are the natural successor to the NMOS 6502, is stretching it IMHO. I don't see the point in running a Spectrum emulator on an Atari that basically sports SNES-like hardware (65c816 + VBXE). Running C64 BASIC and KERNAL on a stock XL (which has been done recently) I think is pretty cool. Or simulating SID on stock hardware. Etc...

 

But each to its own. If @Faicuai wants to add a 1.6GHz ARM CPU that emulates a 6502 on 400MHZ, do not let me stop you

[Faicuai]

32 minutes ago, drac030 said:

I recommend praying to St. Anthony at these occasions

I will surely do that... and Virgin Mary, as well. ?

[Sugarland]

2 hours ago, Faicuai said:

Was Altirra running on the Pi? Could you boot it from an SIO-device attached to the A8 host?

 

If not, I won't spend a nano-second of time on it.

 

It will be much longer than a nanosecond on an A8.

 

[drac030]

58 minutes ago, ivop said:

but for me the charm to retro computing is doing things within the existing limitations.

IMHO it would be pretty cool if it would not lead to developing things on PC "because retro computing is to stick to existing limitations" - but the existing (in fact, not "existing", but "original") limitations (aka "you cannot write a program on Atari conveniently") are unbearable, thus the switch to the PC. This is double-fold hypocrisy: a) insisting on (self-proclaimed) orthodoxy, which b) the individual is himself not able to observe. Hence the "truly retro computing" performed all on current-year PCs. Yeah, that is truly the retro computing in all its charm, indeed.

 

58 minutes ago, ivop said:

Adding high speed CPU's, even if they are the natural successor to the NMOS 6502, is stretching it IMHO.

IMHO it is not. Not more than adding 256 KB of memory to 65XE, when you have come to the conclusion that 64k is not enough. In 80s and 90s it was done without much thinking, the actual obstacle was the money only. Have the money? Go for it (that, besides, has done the Atari platform much more interesting than others, and more challenging in programming: you have to take into account that there is more than just one memory config, more than one OS, more than one BASIC - sometimes no BASIC - more than one disk drive etc.)

 

Now aside of adding memory we can also add video extensions (VBXE, Sophia), audio extensions (Evie, PokeyMax), CPU accelerator boards. All this is done by the same logic as in the old days: because the computer can be made better and we want it to be better, faster, more capable. THIS is, IMHO, the true spirit of the days when the 8-bit machines were mainstream. Not the spirit of a museum. As someone once said, "for you, Atari is a vintage computer, for them [e.g. me], Atari is a current computer". That is the whole difference: no museum, but a living computer platform.

 

58 minutes ago, ivop said:

I don't see the point in running a Spectrum emulator on an Atari that basically sports SNES-like hardware (65c816 + VBXE).

I do. By the above logic, once you installed an extension, it would be pointless to not use it. Just as to get a 130XE to run 48/64k programs ONLY. With an accelerator new things are possible just as with any other extension (e.g. on 800XL you cannot replay as long a sample as on 130XE, and on a 130XE - as with an 1 MB extension - you do not see the point?).

 

EDIT: BTW. VBXE is optional in that emulator

 

58 minutes ago, ivop said:

Running C64 BASIC and KERNAL on a stock XL (which has been done recently) I think is pretty cool.

This is what I consider cool and interesting for the developer, but otherwise pointless. Just as having a port of ZX BASIC to C64 (yes, there exists such a thing): nice toy, but you cannot even run all BASIC programs with it, because they often contain machine code subroutines.

 

58 minutes ago, ivop said:

Or simulating SID on stock hardware.

This is cool beyond discussion. But expanded hardware opens new possibilities here. This is what has always made Atari different from Spectrum/C64 - extensions. I have been an Atarian for more than 33 years now and what baffles me is this quite recent museal attitude which seems to be prevailing now. Quite contrary, I do not think that Atari 8-bit computing platform is SO COMPLETELY dead that the only thing which remains is a showcase and a display cabinet.

 

Edited September 30, 2021 by drac030

[xxl]

two people, after installing boob implants in their computers, generate 95% of traffic in a topic that they are not interested in.

 

bravo.

[Sugarland]

USB Gamepad/Mouse Interface would be great. Would love to play the joy2b games with a modern PC USB gamepad please.

[Irgendwer]

7 hours ago, drac030 said:

The poll lists things which I either already have (CPU accelerator, 80-column solution, audio expansion) or can write myself (the software part) or do not need (pretty much the rest). This leaves me without options to vote for

Good to know!

Why are you here then in the first place? ?

 

Regarding the CPU accelerator:

 

The solution I have in mind would be a plug-and-play replacement - if your CPU is in a socket, just a simple exchange.

 

It would support 5 different modes:

1. practically 100% compatible one (where the undocumented instructions (hello @xxl ) would also be supported (like in mode 2,3 & 4) and timing is exact)

2. slight acceleration (about 20%), also with very high compatibility (besides instruction timing)

3 & 4. moderate speed (> 100%), I expect at least a few programs will have issues with that

5. is like mode 4 but with enriched instruction set - for new / adapted/ patched software that will support it (instructions will outperform equivalents by > 300 %)

 

Sorry, no 400 MHz, but perfect to make "Karateka" playable... ?

Bus speed won't be changed.

Price will be two digit number.

Edited September 30, 2021 by Irgendwer

[Faicuai]

4 minutes ago, Irgendwer said:

if your CPU is in a socket, just a simple exchange.

Interesting.

 

Would this work also on a 400/800 socketed CPU board, for instance? (would it be SALLY-type)?

[drac030]

9 minutes ago, Irgendwer said:

Why are you here then in the first place?

Because this is a public thread on a public forum and I am taking advantage of the freedom of speech. Are there any possible inconveniences with that?

[Irgendwer]

4 minutes ago, Faicuai said:

Would this work also on a 400/800 socketed CPU board, for instance? (would it be SALLY-type)?

I see no obstacle why a pulling up /HALT shouldn't be possible in a 400/800.

[xxl]

9 minutes ago, Irgendwer said:

5. is like mode 4 but with enriched instruction set - for new / adapted/ patched software that will support it (instructions will outperform equivalents by > 300 %)

the KIL/CIM codes $02, $12, $22, $32, $42, $52, $62, $72, $92, $B2, $D2, $F2 codes can be used as a prefix to new complex commands or software operation mode switch

[Irgendwer]

2 minutes ago, drac030 said:

Are there any possible inconveniences with that?

No, just out of curiosity. ?

[Irgendwer]

Just now, xxl said:

the KIL/CIM codes $02, $12, $22, $32, $42, $52, $62, $72, $92, $B2, $D2, $F2 codes can be used as a prefix to new complex commands or software operation mode switch

I like the way you think... ?

 

[drac030]

3 minutes ago, Irgendwer said:

No, just out of curiosity.

Quite good.

[Wrathchild]

Maybe we should finish The Sentinel ?

 

[danwinslow]

As far as the accelerator topic, I would just like something like the Rapidus, but that is more compatible. 400MHZ is not an Atari accelerator, it's a different computer.

[Irgendwer]

22 minutes ago, Wrathchild said:

Maybe we should finish The Sentinel ?

Maybe... ?
I knew there was something, but I guess I have already to many reverse-engineering aspects in my daily job to find working on undocumented code attractive... ?
...but I promise... ...after... ...the Elite port?

[Wrathchild]

? already have @Heaven/TQA and @popmilo on my case regards Elite

[adam242]

2 hours ago, Irgendwer said:

Regarding the CPU accelerator:

 

The solution I have in mind would be a plug-and-play replacement - if your CPU is in a socket, just a simple exchange.

 

It would support 5 different modes:

1. practically 100% compatible one (where the undocumented instructions (hello @xxl ) would also be supported (like in mode 2,3 & 4) and timing is exact)

2. slight acceleration (about 20%), also with very high compatibility (besides instruction timing)

3 & 4. moderate speed (> 100%), I expect at least a few programs will have issues with that

5. is like mode 4 but with enriched instruction set - for new / adapted/ patched software that will support it (instructions will outperform equivalents by > 300 %)

 

Sorry, no 400 MHz, but perfect to make "Karateka" playable... ?

Bus speed won't be changed.

Price will be two digit number.

This gets my vote!

 

(although, more quality games are always welcome)

[Roydea6]

Disco'Pop with a continue key for at least two Continues .

 

[Beeblebrox]

8 hours ago, Wrathchild said:

? already have @Heaven/TQA and @popmilo on my case regards Elite

Speaking of Elite, I came across a mint condition demo disk in my collection from the 90's released by Micro Discount here in the UK of an unreleased game U.F.O. Soon as I saw it I recalled through the mists of time being excited about seeing it BITD. 

 

Reason I mention it is the cool 3D ships it had:

      

 

Check it out (go about 1.13mins into the vid) where it goes through all the ship types complete with the animation:

 

 

 

[Heaven/TQA]

54 minutes ago, Beeblebrox said:

Speaking of Elite, I came across a mint condition demo disk in my collection from the 90's released by Micro Discount here in the UK of an unreleased game U.F.O. Soon as I saw it I recalled through the mists of time being excited about seeing it BITD. 

 

Reason I mention it is the cool 3D ships it had:

      

 

Check it out (go about 1.13mins into the vid) where it goes through all the ship types complete with the animation:

 

never come across the UFO proto?

 

 

[Mclaneinc]

Didn't know that existed, I'm a huge U.F.O fan, it gets numerous re-runs on Forces TV here in the UK plus I own both box sets of it..

 

Have the 2 disks been archived?

 

Edit: I never realised I have the disks..

Edited October 1, 2021 by Mclaneinc