Why no Master System Mini?

[Lord Mushroom]

Why is there no Sega Master System Mini? I understand that it sold a lot less than the NES, SNES and Mega Drive/Genesis, for example, but it sold many times more than the Neo Geo, which has a mini. Is it a combination of low sales figures and lower quality games than 16-bit systems? Is there so little money to be made that Sega doesn´t bother?

[carlsson]

Sega seems to take a different route with those new micro sized Game Gears. Also for many years they outsourced retro consoles to AtGames who got a lot of bad rep for the quality, something Sega tried to redeem by making their own mini console. I don't know how well it sold, if there were enough profits.

 

Of course each manufacturer have their motives. In the case of Neo Geo, that always was super expensive and has a big following even if the sales numbers weren't that big, meaning an affordable mini console was attractive to the enthusiasts, but perhaps not so much mainstream consumers. I also remember that the PlayStation had a mini console, but I don't know for how long Sony kept stocking it.

 

To a large part, I think the fad about mini systems has ebbed out. Yes, I know about the Amiga 500 mini scheduled for next year (and THEC64 full currently selling), but on the console side at least the giants like Nintendo, Sony and to which extent you like to still call them giants, Sega, seem to have tried and moved on. Obviously Nintendo has now released at least two games in G&W format, Sega has those micro GG as I mentioned. While probably production costs are higher, I would think those also are more profitable and desirable than another direct to TV console, in particular a second runner like the SMS.

[CatPix]

Ask Sega. We can only make speculation about why, but the Game Gear Mini they released give us a small clue : they mostly care about the Japanese market; the SMS never had any chance in Japan so Sega won't make one. Also, the SMS in Japan had two forms : the familiar boxy 80's design came late, while the most common version would me the Sega Mark III.

It mean making two versions for Sega, one for Japan and one for the rest of the world. (Although again, whoever released the PC-Engine Mini did that for the Japanese, Euro and US markets).

There's also the fact that Tec Toy still make SMS console in Brazil; they might have sold their rights to Tec Toy to make more cash at some point and don't wanna shake that tree (I would be surprised but you can't exclude it).

Honestly I think it boils down to the fact that Sega is too frisky to engage in any sort of merchandising of that kind.

There would be a demand, yes, but what kind? The stakes are probably seen as too high for Sega to engage in that. The Megadrive was a large success except in Japan and the Saturn had a strong success in Japan. So we got the Megadrive and probably will get the SAturn (perharps like the Game Gear, as a Japan exclusive)

[roots.genoa]

There are 8 Master System games in Lost Judgment, so maybe they're thinking about it now...

[Tanooki]

Sega if one thing, death, resurrection, reformatted...handed around like spare change over the years has been one very thing when it comes to consistency... being anything BUT consistent when it comes to hardware.  Consoles, handhelds, one offs... they seem to lack any sense of direction, quality control(at some level), or care either.  But when it comes to the games they seem to be more up on their heritage to the point of backing and being nice to private developers with their IPs and other things, it's weird.

 

ATGames ruined their rep on the 16bit side, and by the time they did it right (the 2nd revision of the android centric system that runs carts) where it's emulated as perfect if not edging out Sega's on Mini console, it was just too late.  I don't see that thing pop up at retail much anymore, see if they push it again this holiday again and we should know within a few weeks I'd guess, but it seemed to move fairly well.  The game gears I've not seem much, seemed more mocked than enjoyed so who knows, it never left Japan so forget finding much useful data since NPD doesn't deal with keychain (effectively) style toys.  The funny thing is before ATgames shit the bed on them for a good decade, they did have a quality sega device, and it is just this too, a Master System one (with a few game gear titles too) that were in a closed system list of like 30 games in a handheld for like $20-30.  It's utterly fantastic, solid list of games, and the audio, visuals, control are correct unlike the genesis disaster.  They did well, went foul for a good decade, made up for it but only after Sega planned to off their contract for their own stuff.  Now it's like... who knows.  Are they sour?  Did the dopey stamp sized mini GGs justify anything, hard to tell.  They seemed pretty up on some weird min itoys of all their old systems too for a time.

[DragonGrafx-16]

14 hours ago, Lord Mushroom said:

Why is there no Sega Master System Mini? I understand that it sold a lot less than the NES, SNES and Mega Drive/Genesis, for example, but it sold many times more than the Neo Geo, which has a mini. Is it a combination of low sales figures and lower quality games than 16-bit systems? Is there so little money to be made that Sega doesn´t bother?

There technically is one, but it is in Brazil. And it does not actually look like the SMS.

[SegaMasterSystemPunk]

11 hours ago, DragonGrafx-16 said:

There technically is one, but it is in Brazil. And it does not actually look like the SMS.

Do you refer to SMS II?

[sn8k]

11 hours ago, Tanooki said:

ATGames ruined their rep on the 16bit side, and by the time they did it right (the 2nd revision of the android centric system that runs carts) where it's emulated as perfect if not edging out Sega's on Mini console, it was just too late. 

When Atgames finally got it right..... it still sucked. No way that thing is more accurate than Sega's. That cartridge port also has one of the worst death grips I have ever seen. I refused to put carts into after 1 attempt. The emulation and sound was alot better in that Genesis but that cartridge port was worse than the already shitty ones that came before it.

 

So Atgames model 1 Genesis was indeed a drastic improvement over all the others they did before..... but things were still wrong with it. I mainly bought it for the shell.

 

You can't even finish Mortal Kombat on it. Whether you play it off the menu or cart. The game freezes and restarts before Goro drops down. This has happened in a couple of other games aswell but MK was the one that sticks out because they included it on the system and you cant even finish the game in either format you're trying to play on it.

 

If all the other Genesis clones were 2/10....

 

That last one was a 6. Ok but with it's issues.

[sn8k]

In regards to SMS. I think there should be a mini. Or a compilation disc like they did for Genesis on PS3/4. But Sega likes to make stupid decisions. Or make the right decisions after ignoring fans for years..... acting surprised when they finally release what people have been asking for after they have already moved on.

 

Like i dunno, don't make people wait 17 years for a game..... or 24 for SOR4 after completely abandoning it.

 

If there is 1 Genesis game I kept hearing about over the years, through friends, internet, videos etc....it was Streets of Rage 2 and all requests attached to it were for a Streets of Rage 4. We finally get the game..... doesn't feel like a Sega game because......Sega didnt make it.

 

I feel if they actually did it themselves , it would have been much better than how it turned out. Still a good game as is. Just missing that lil bit of magic that was in Streets of Rage 1 and 3 but most prominently in 2.

 

Edited October 9, 2021 by sn8k

[Lord Mushroom]

30 minutes ago, SegaMasterSystemPunk said:

Do you refer to SMS II?

There may be several ones, but there is one called Master System 3 Collection, and it has 120 or 131 games or something. It is not that small, though.

[+MarcoJ]

The Genesis/Megadrive can readily play SMS games in its native emulation. I think there's no real need for a separate SMS - the Genesis modern systems come with SMS games built in as well as Genesis.

[Reaperman]

We did get that Coleco-branded sms handheld thing, sold at US Target stores like 5-10 years ago, so at that point somebody thought there was enough money in it to license both the Sega software and (oddly) the Coleco name(?). So a modern mini wouldn't be the stupidest thing ever, or even as stupid as what we've seen.

 

On one hand, and probably the most important hand, a modern 'mini' system takes almost nothing to design, and the hardest part is probably sorting out the design of its nostalgia-inducing case.  (I see what I did there)

On the other hand, there is always the same argument that can be said about all these existing minis to various degrees.  Just how many people feel enough nostalgia to huck down $50+ for a "dedicated" (shell for the same old android) nostalgia-trinket, but don't necessarily care enough to need that device to play those games correctly, even by comparison to other commercial emulation options, for example on consoles? 

 

I'd always hope that number is low, and every time its not, I lose more faith in the world. 

 

Personally, I don't like SMS for whatever reason--I don't like how it looks, sounds, or feels in the hand. So I'd be even less onboard than usual. Only if prices were to drop to nearly thrift shop levels, and its usb controllers work on MiSTer--only then would I'd be down for one.

Edited October 9, 2021 by Reaperman

[Tanooki]

16 hours ago, sn8k said:

When Atgames finally got it right..... it still sucked. No way that thing is more accurate than Sega's. That cartridge port also has one of the worst death grips I have ever seen. I refused to put carts into after 1 attempt. The emulation and sound was alot better in that Genesis but that cartridge port was worse than the already shitty ones that came before it.

 

So Atgames model 1 Genesis was indeed a drastic improvement over all the others they did before..... but things were still wrong with it. I mainly bought it for the shell.

 

You can't even finish Mortal Kombat on it. Whether you play it off the menu or cart. The game freezes and restarts before Goro drops down. This has happened in a couple of other games aswell but MK was the one that sticks out because they included it on the system and you cant even finish the game in either format you're trying to play on it.

 

If all the other Genesis clones were 2/10....

 

That last one was a 6. Ok but with it's issues.

Well in this case you'd be wrong.  I remember it being looked at side by side, the smaller amount of the 2018(or was it 19) release of the HD Genesis they did, it wasn't their emulator which did have issues though nothing like the decade old firecore dumpster fire.  They gave up.  They got with the author of Genesis GX Plus, got a license and his help, and used that to drive their system.  THe hardware was more than capable, but still was having problems on the first HD device, but that second one, it's a rival to the sega system for on board quality but tops it as it can run the genesis/md library's actual carts and I've read flash kits too.

 

@Reaperman You're taking about the shiny smooth little black handheld with the red/white coleco labeling under the LCD right?  That was well over 10 years ago, I had it.  The ATGames one popped up about a decade after it, far as I can tell though, they licensed out the same emulator/game selection more or less as they run nice and the same.

 

This is that ATGames SMS/GG  seems it came out around 2015.

https://www.amazon.com/Master-System-Arcade-Gamer-Portable/dp/B00G16PH5A/ref=cm_cr_arp_d_product_top?ie=UTF8

Edited October 10, 2021 by Tanooki

[sn8k]

14 hours ago, Tanooki said:

THe hardware was more than capable, but still was having problems on the first HD device, but that second one, it's a rival to the sega system for on board quality but tops it as it can run the genesis/md library's actual carts and I've read flash kits too.

Well enjoy ruining carts on your "superior" Genesis.  

 

I personally don't need that shitty cartridge port as my Genesis mini has around 200 games on it and If I want to use my actual carts, Ive got a model 1 and 2.

 

I wanted to love the Atgames model 1 Genesis. I love the case. The size of it is perfect.... not a fan of the super small sizes of the mini classics. I would have much rather had something the same size as Atgames console or around something like that for all of them.

 

As it stands..... my Atgames model 1 will be turned into raspberry pi some day.

[Tanooki]

I don't have one, I would have but I got gifted the closed Sega system.  Not sure why you're being a drama queen though, not sure what your deal is, but I don't really remember anyone complaining it was eating their games.  I guess you got a bad one so they all suck, perhaps it was the first of the 2 models of HDMI ones, that may be the case since they started over there, no idea.  You said model 1 so maybe it's that, the model 2 was improved in various ways.

[Steven Pendleton]

4 hours ago, Tanooki said:

I don't have one, I would have but I got gifted the closed Sega system.  Not sure why you're being a drama queen though, not sure what your deal is, but I don't really remember anyone complaining it was eating their games.  I guess you got a bad one so they all suck, perhaps it was the first of the 2 models of HDMI ones, that may be the case since they started over there, no idea.  You said model 1 so maybe it's that, the model 2 was improved in various ways.

Yes, I have heard that the newer AtGames systems are better. There was one of the newer ones over in Trader running the attract mode of Sonic 3 (& Knuckles? It's been a while and I forgot, but Angel Island was there) until relatively recently. Even with the store's music playing, I could tell that the sound was noticeably off. Still, there are some good uses for it, like this:

 

[Tanooki]

Well I've known a few picky sorts too, and basically firecore was garbage, android year 1 (of 2) was still off, but dramatically closer to correct.  Year 2 which barely eeked out with the cancellation for the Sega made system had more or less accurate audio as far as the emulator they lifted.  I've heard it's accurate but it's android based and I don't have any android devices anymore to see for myself.  I've got Sega's mini and a Nomad with an everdrive.

[Steven Pendleton]

1 hour ago, Tanooki said:

Well I've known a few picky sorts too, and basically firecore was garbage, android year 1 (of 2) was still off, but dramatically closer to correct.  Year 2 which barely eeked out with the cancellation for the Sega made system had more or less accurate audio as far as the emulator they lifted.  I've heard it's accurate but it's android based and I don't have any android devices anymore to see for myself.  I've got Sega's mini and a Nomad with an everdrive.

That's the way to do it; Nomad is awesome. Bulky, of course, and eats batteries fast and has a pretty bad screen by modern standards, but I can still no miss Thunder Force IV on that screen and you can put in a nice modern screen, which should also solve the issue of battery life, as the modern screens are far more efficient than the stock 1995 LCD is. It's actually not even all that heavy when you remove the battery pack (surprisingly comparable to the weight of the Switch, actually) and surprisingly comfortable to hold due to its excellent shape and size, so I like to plug it in and chill in bed with it, but I also occasionally plug it into the RetroTINK or OSSC and play it like that since it has nice video output. Also LOVE those ultra platinum crisp and responsive Nomad ABCXYZ buttons. Why can't modern controllers have buttons that excellent?

[Draxxon]

Legends Flashback plays .sms games. Here is a pack to convert a LFB to a SMS:

https://atariage.com/forums/applications/core/interface/file/attachment.php?id=766041

 

TecToy makes this:

 

So, there are a couple options, but nothing that looks like a mini SMS shell.

Edited October 12, 2021 by Draxxon

[Draxxon]

On 10/9/2021 at 6:31 AM, sn8k said:

When Atgames finally got it right..... it still sucked. No way that thing is more accurate than Sega's.

The final model AtGames sega flashback is the accurate one. I didn't believe it either, but, AtGames sega flashback was suposedly more accurate than Sega's own mini. @KevinMos3 was the one that actually alerted me to this fact. I don't own one to check because I actually only have the sega mini. But, I understand. I didn't believe it either. Until I started looking into it.

Not that Amazon prices mean much, but a NEW Sega mini is $115. A USED Sega flashback is like $180, NEW is $250.

Amazon.com: Sega Genesis Mini - Genesis : Video Games

Amazon.com: Sega Genesis Flashback Gold - Electronic Games : Video Games

Edited October 12, 2021 by Draxxon

[Tanooki]

7 hours ago, Steven Pendleton said:

That's the way to do it; Nomad is awesome. Bulky, of course, and eats batteries fast and has a pretty bad screen by modern standards, but I can still no miss Thunder Force IV on that screen and you can put in a nice modern screen, which should also solve the issue of battery life, as the modern screens are far more efficient than the stock 1995 LCD is. It's actually not even all that heavy when you remove the battery pack (surprisingly comparable to the weight of the Switch, actually) and surprisingly comfortable to hold due to its excellent shape and size, so I like to plug it in and chill in bed with it, but I also occasionally plug it into the RetroTINK or OSSC and play it like that since it has nice video output. Also LOVE those ultra platinum crisp and responsive Nomad ABCXYZ buttons. Why can't modern controllers have buttons that excellent?

I can't not deny the truths of those 2 first points, with a stock system.  I made a trade for mine, and what the old owner I guess never tested(maybe sat on it?) or forgot, but it was modded.  A decade ago someone found you could adapt one of those mass market LCD panels used for car DVD players to fit into the Nomad using a conversion board and a couple soldered in wires, it has this.  Because the old super hungry LCD/lighting setup is out, it's not quite the vampire, not going to last GBC (10~hours) but more than 3.  I ended up when I got the thing it had no pack so I had used the sega ac adapter I had, but I found a steal of a price on the missing battery pack and the seller gave me some ultra life AAs inside as a thanks, they lasted quite a few hours, and they're not quite dead yet either.  I agree it's big, but not bad, it is comfy, much like the equally bloasted Supaboy S/SFC I have too for SNES games.  It's thick but not fat, so it's not tiring to grip over time or hold due to weight.

 

My first Genesis was the Nomad, then ended up with a free Gen3(meh) with a lot of games helping an ex-long distance GF get some Sega goodies down under in the late 90s.  I've had a couple non-TMSS Genesis systems too since but got out of Sega years back.  I thought on it a LONG time and decided I wanted a Nomad, a few select games(short of a cheap good local find), and an everdrive and I'd be happy.  The only thing from then I lack (game aside) is the nice old OEM Sega A/V cable as I liked to ramp it through my TV at times.

[Austin]

Given it wasn't particularly popular in a couple of regions (North America and Japan), I can't see an official Master System Mini really being viable. Even if one happened, there would be the question of a quality game lineup. I like the SMS as much as the next guy, but outside of a few noteworthy bigger-name titles (some of the Alex Kidds, Phantasy Star, the Sonic titles, etc), it would be difficult filling up a "Mini" with quality titles. I can imagine it now: Phantasy Star paired with choppy, redundant arcade conversions that probably shouldn't have existed on the platform to begin with (After Burner... blech)! Sign me right up!

 

Then again, the more I think about it, the more I wouldn't mind a mini with the SMS's usual big name titles, with some of the smoother, more playable early/quirky titles padding out the rest of the lineup (stuff like Quartet, Ghost House, the Fantasy Zones, Black Belt, etc).

[Tanooki]

Well if they did it I guarantee you they'd include the Game Gear stuff considering the nearly identical hardware which also due to that got a lot of cross-port releases as well in some region or another.  I think it could work, probably is, it's just not noteworthy enough as the Genesis/MD is, or even the Dreamcast given the digital collections/releases that got too on some platforms.

[Flojomojo]

If we had a Mini, what form factor would you like it to follow? The original squarish black/red one? 

 

There was a handheld Master System 15 years ago, I made a thread about it back then -- I thought it strange that it had a big red COLECO sticker on it. I think this is from when they were under River West Brands (later Dormitus Brands). https://www.nytimes.com/2008/05/18/magazine/18rebranding-t.html

 

Chances are, Sega thinks they've gone as far as they can with those games. 

 

 

[Tanooki]

That coleco is the exact SMS handheld I had all those years ago, which seemingly at some core level was lifted to the more modern atgames one.  I really wish it had been open to more games like the ever trashy genesis handheld, without the broken baggage.