Buyers Perspective: Why should I buy the Tandy RadioShack 80

[Frozone212]

Sold, i'll take everything?

[RangerG]

In 1977 this would be the Model 1, right?

Edited November 9, 2021 by RangerG

[Frozone212]

yeah

 

I've actually used it in an emulator. not a bad system

[ClausB]

On 11/9/2021 at 5:22 PM, RangerG said:

In 1977 this would be the Model 1, right?

No, in 1977 it was the TRS-80.

 

Also in 1977 it was Star Wars, not episode 4 nor A New Hope!

[Frozone212]

thanks for the corrections

[Mr SQL]

 

To sell a Computer in 1977 just wink and wave your hands like this guy with the Sorcerer and talk about BASIC programming and all those type-in's in magazines and books and the great keyboard with all that play. 

[JamesD]

7 hours ago, Mr SQL said:

 

To sell a Computer in 1977 just wink and wave your hands like this guy with the Sorcerer and talk about BASIC programming and all those type-in's in magazines and books and the great keyboard with all that play. 

I thought the Sorcerer came out in 1978

 

[Mr SQL]

On 1/5/2022 at 11:05 PM, JamesD said:

I thought the Sorcerer came out in 1978

 

I think the salesman could sell the TRS-80 with the flourish and wink because it had the same computer in the keyboard with BASIC in ROM form.

 

Sinclair also used a hand flourish and a wink to capitalize on an emerging form there was growing awareness of. 

 

[Frozone212]

On 10/17/2021 at 1:05 PM, Turbo-Torch said:

Well sir, you seem to be doing your homework.  Have you been to your local PET store and asked these same questions?  No?  I didn't think so.  You see, in most populated areas, you can drive 5 miles in any direction and find a Radio Shack store.  Each store can provide you with technical support, software, peripherals and even repairs.  Can Commodore offer you any of that?

 

What are you planning on doing with your new computer?  At this moment I can offer you an inexpensive 4K RAM model with built in BASIC programming language, a data cassette recorder for loading and saving programs, 64 column text display, 128X48 graphics and a full size ALPS keyboard with spring switches and sculptured keys that rival the best electric typewriters.  This is the perfect beginners system for the hobbyist.  If you're going to be writing your own programs, I can easily bump the RAM up to 16K for a nominal cost.

Here...have a seat and give that keyboard a try.  Practically types for you, doesn't it?  And isn't that 64 columns of text especially nice for writing professional looking reports?  

 

If you're looking to run a business and are willing to wait a few weeks, I can order our top tier model with the expansion interface.  You'll get 48K RAM, Level II BASIC, up to four (yes four!) high speed mini disk drives that allows massive amounts of storage retrieval in the blink of an eye, a high quality printer and a telephone interface that lets you communicate with other computers anywhere in the world at a blazing 30 characters per second.

 

Of course you can start off with our low cost base model and upgrade at anytime with whatever options you want.  If you're technically minded, I can include the Service Manual which covers everything from theory of operation to troubleshooting and repair.  Any parts you may ever need can be ordered from any of our thousands of locations throughout the US.

And since we're such a big company, you can rest assured you'll be seeing endless amounts of software and peripherals being released for years to come.  Heck, we already have a newsletter that gets sent to current owners.

 

Now when you find a PET dealer, be sure to ask them if their text only 40 column system can be expanded beyond 8K.

If you inquire about mini disk drives, don't be surprised if they don't know what those are.  You see, the PET wasn't designed for them...although I hear they may have a solution several years from now.

And be sure you try out its flat membrane keyboard which isn't much larger than that pack of cigarettes in your shirt pocket.  Between you and me, I think they bought out overstock from a cash register company.

 

I'm sure I'll be seeing you soon.  Have a good day!

 

I want to report an error with the modem. well... it broke

[mutterminder]

If I recall, the salesman at Radio Shack never tried to sell me a TRS-80 in 1977.  In fact I seemed to know more about it than he did.  I ended up reserving the first one that came to the store and bugging them every week until it arrived. Most of the selling points discussed here didn't become relevant until much later in the year or until the next year.   There was only one program tape available at the time I bought it "Black Jack". So I ended up buying a book of 100 Computer Games in BASIC.   Even when the Level II BASIC and 16K RAM upgrades became available, they were too expensive.  I ended up saving for the LEVEL II BASIC, and when 16K RAMs became cheap enough I upgraded the RAM myself.

 

Edited September 9, 2022 by mutterminder
Spelling

[JamesD]

On 9/9/2022 at 6:55 AM, mutterminder said:

If I recall, the salesman at Radio Shack never tried to sell me a TRS-80 in 1977.  In fact I seemed to know more about it than he did.  I ended up reserving the first one that came to the store and bugging them every week until it arrived. Most of the selling points discussed here didn't become relevant until much later in the year or until the next year.   There was only one program tape available at the time I bought it "Black Jack". So I ended up buying a book of 100 Computer Games in BASIC.   Even when the Level II BASIC and 16K RAM upgrades became available, they were too expensive.  I ended up saving for the LEVEL II BASIC, and when 16K RAMs became cheap enough I upgraded the RAM myself.

 

1977 was a very different world. 
The Apple II had integer BASIC, the PET had a calculator keyboard, and the Model I had Level 1 BASIC.  Level 1 isn't even tokenized, it uses abbreviated keywords.
It's amazing how much the machines advanced in just a couple years.
 

 

[Hwlngmad]

On 9/10/2022 at 10:44 PM, JamesD said:

1977 was a very different world. 
The Apple II had integer BASIC, the PET had a calculator keyboard, and the Model I had Level 1 BASIC.  Level 1 isn't even tokenized, it uses abbreviated keywords.
It's amazing how much the machines advanced in just a couple years.
 

 

No joke.  Just look at the machines released in 1979.  Definitely they were major upgrades to what was available just two years prior.

[mutterminder]

Since I learned to program in Level 1 BASIC, (from the excellent book included with my TRS-80), I may have developed some bad programming habits early on.  Because of the limited 4K of memory in my machine, after I had entered all of the examples from the manual, I only had the one other book of BASIC programs (BASIC Computer Games, by David Ahl, although later there was a TRS-80 specific version), that were not specifically written for the TRS-80.  To get many of the programs working I had to abbreviate all of the key words, and cram as many commands as possible on to one line.

[JamesD]

On 9/20/2022 at 6:58 AM, mutterminder said:

Since I learned to program in Level 1 BASIC, (from the excellent book included with my TRS-80), I may have developed some bad programming habits early on.  Because of the limited 4K of memory in my machine, after I had entered all of the examples from the manual, I only had the one other book of BASIC programs (BASIC Computer Games, by David Ahl, although later there was a TRS-80 specific version), that were not specifically written for the TRS-80.  To get many of the programs working I had to abbreviate all of the key words, and cram as many commands as possible on to one line.

I still have the TRS-80 version.  One of the first computer books I ever bought.  (More BASIC Computer Games got lost in the mail and I never did get that replaced)
It was for Level II BASIC

 

[JamesD]

On 9/12/2022 at 1:02 PM, Hwlngmad said:

No joke.  Just look at the machines released in 1979.  Definitely they were major upgrades to what was available just two years prior.

A bit off topic, and maybe it's just my skewed view of history but...
The first years after the intro of the "trinity" of personal computers are introduced has some of the biggest market changes.  This doesn't even mention dozens of other machines that sold poorly.

1978 Intro of TRS-80 Level II BASIC, Exidy Sorcerer introduced... very TRS-80 like but with programmable characters for hi-res graphics, and ROMs were on a cart so alternative languages can be used.  At this point it's clear that a minimal BASIC isn't enough.  Tiny Pascal is published in BYTE magazine.  UCSD Pascal beat it by a year but this bytecode compiler/interpreter was free, and was probably the first widely used compiler on micros.  At some point Tandy sold Tiny Pascal on a tape, but I'm unsure of the date.

1979 The Atari 8 bits hit the market, Ti-99/4, The PET gets a real keyboard, Apple II+ introduced with Applesoft II BASIC.  Hi-res graphics are common, added BASIC graphics commands (beyond just setting pixels), sprites, cart based software, etc... up the stakes.  Floppy drives autoboot on many machines if you can afford one.  Visicalc is introduced and drives up Apple II sales.  Apple Pascal (and language system) is introduced.  Compilers/languages other than BASIC are now pushed by manufacturers.

1980 Model III, Tandy CoCo, and VIC 20 introduced, though the VIC didn't hit stores till 81.  The TRS-80 Model III a Model I with lowercase characters, more speed, and RF shielding.   The Model I could always do lowercase, and the faster speed, but Tandy just hadn't let it over $.  The low end consumer market that will drive prices down is established.  Sinclair ZX80 is introduced in the UK.  The ZX-80 is pretty limited, and the BASIC is a bit of a throwback, but it shows there is a magic price point that will drive sales.

1981 VIC hits shelves.  TI-99/4A introduced.  The TI gets a real keyboard. Sinclair ZX81 released, stepping up the ZX80's game with a better BASIC, and cost reduced design though it's still not really a US machine.  A few other low cost machines pop up in parts of the world, some are clones based on the ZX-80 including some kits in the US. 

1982 The TS-1000 is introduced in the US.  A million are sold in a year, though the VIC20 supposedly beats it to the 1 million sold mark first.  The C64 is introduced.  The Franklin Ace 1000 is introduced.  Computers are now seen as better game systems than consoles, and you can copy the games.  Clones are here to stay, and every company suddenly has the desire to sell 1 million machines by introducing a computer near the $100 price point.

1983 Many new low cost machines on or by this year.  Companies quickly find out that people don't just want cheap machines, they want good machines for that price.  Even though most of these machines are much better than TS-1000/ZX-81, many consumers are leery of the low cost machines after having bought/returned/hated the TS/ZX machines.  Also, some of the new machines come with at least 16K for just a little more money.  Most of the cheap models drop out of the US market within a year, especially as prices fall on other machines.  Turbo Pascal is introduced, making native code compilation, and it's speed the new standard for non-BASIC development.

The market started with text based machines with no built in language, quickly moved to powerful built in BASICs, more RAM, hi-res color graphics, sound, disk drives, and even was moving to compiled languages all within about 6 years.

*edit*
2 important additions. 
1979, Apple established the ability to swap out ROMs for RAM using a software switch, giving applications or other languages more memory.  This was common on machines introduced after that. 
1983  Apple IIe introduced.  Upgrades beyond 64K now became available from manufacturers.

Edited September 24, 2022 by JamesD

[mutterminder]

On 9/24/2022 at 9:50 AM, JamesD said:

A bit off topic, and maybe it's just my skewed view of history but...
The first years after the intro of the "trinity" of personal computers are introduced has some of the biggest market changes.  This doesn't even mention dozens of other machines that sold poorly.

1978 Intro of TRS-80 Level II BASIC, Exidy Sorcerer introduced... very TRS-80 like but with programmable characters for hi-res graphics, and ROMs were on a cart so alternative languages can be used.  At this point it's clear that a minimal BASIC isn't enough.  Tiny Pascal is published in BYTE magazine.  UCSD Pascal beat it by a year but this bytecode compiler/interpreter was free, and was probably the first widely used compiler on micros.  At some point Tandy sold Tiny Pascal on a tape, but I'm unsure of the date.

1979 The Atari 8 bits hit the market, Ti-99/4, The PET gets a real keyboard, Apple II+ introduced with Applesoft II BASIC.  Hi-res graphics are common, added BASIC graphics commands (beyond just setting pixels), sprites, cart based software, etc... up the stakes.  Floppy drives autoboot on many machines if you can afford one.  Visicalc is introduced and drives up Apple II sales.  Apple Pascal (and language system) is introduced.  Compilers/languages other than BASIC are now pushed by manufacturers.

1980 Model III, Tandy CoCo, and VIC 20 introduced, though the VIC didn't hit stores till 81.  The TRS-80 Model III a Model I with lowercase characters, more speed, and RF shielding.   The Model I could always do lowercase, and the faster speed, but Tandy just hadn't let it over $.  The low end consumer market that will drive prices down is established.  Sinclair ZX80 is introduced in the UK.  The ZX-80 is pretty limited, and the BASIC is a bit of a throwback, but it shows there is a magic price point that will drive sales.

1981 VIC hits shelves.  TI-99/4A introduced.  The TI gets a real keyboard. Sinclair ZX81 released, stepping up the ZX80's game with a better BASIC, and cost reduced design though it's still not really a US machine.  A few other low cost machines pop up in parts of the world, some are clones based on the ZX-80 including some kits in the US. 

1982 The TS-1000 is introduced in the US.  A million are sold in a year, though the VIC20 supposedly beats it to the 1 million sold mark first.  The C64 is introduced.  The Franklin Ace 1000 is introduced.  Computers are now seen as better game systems than consoles, and you can copy the games.  Clones are here to stay, and every company suddenly has the desire to sell 1 million machines by introducing a computer near the $100 price point.

1983 Many new low cost machines on or by this year.  Companies quickly find out that people don't just want cheap machines, they want good machines for that price.  Even though most of these machines are much better than TS-1000/ZX-81, many consumers are leery of the low cost machines after having bought/returned/hated the TS/ZX machines.  Also, some of the new machines come with at least 16K for just a little more money.  Most of the cheap models drop out of the US market within a year, especially as prices fall on other machines.  Turbo Pascal is introduced, making native code compilation, and it's speed the new standard for non-BASIC development.

The market started with text based machines with no built in language, quickly moved to powerful built in BASICs, more RAM, hi-res color graphics, sound, disk drives, and even was moving to compiled languages all within about 6 years.

*edit*
2 important additions. 
1979, Apple established the ability to swap out ROMs for RAM using a software switch, giving applications or other languages more memory.  This was common on machines introduced after that. 
1983  Apple IIe introduced.  Upgrades beyond 64K now became available from manufacturers.

For 1978 you forgot the Ohio Scientific Challenger line, the Sol Terminal Computers, and the Color Computer II all of which I eyed with envy.  Then there is Cromenco, SWTPC, North Star Computer. and Altos.  Also the kit computers like Heathkit H8,  the KIM 1,  the RCA Cosmac ELF II, and the Rockwell AIM 65.   Through 1978, and 1979 there were so many S-100 systems coming out that I don't remember them all.  For me, the Color Computer II was my dream computer for a while, until the Atari 800 came out in 1979.  It was such a technical wonder that every other 8-bit computer paled in comparison. But by then I was heavily invested in the TRS-80 ecosystem,  and couldn't afford to change to a complete new system yet, as I was a poor college student.  When the LNW-80 came out in 1980, I would have loved to have been able to afford it as a TRS-80 compatible with color graphics, but I was still in collage and still poor.

[JamesD]

On 9/29/2022 at 5:26 PM, mutterminder said:

For 1978 you forgot the Ohio Scientific Challenger line, the Sol Terminal Computers, and the Color Computer II all of which I eyed with envy.  Then there is Cromenco, SWTPC, North Star Computer. and Altos.  Also the kit computers like Heathkit H8,  the KIM 1,  the RCA Cosmac ELF II, and the Rockwell AIM 65.   Through 1978, and 1979 there were so many S-100 systems coming out that I don't remember them all.  For me, the Color Computer II was my dream computer for a while, until the Atari 800 came out in 1979.  It was such a technical wonder that every other 8-bit computer paled in comparison. But by then I was heavily invested in the TRS-80 ecosystem,  and couldn't afford to change to a complete new system yet, as I was a poor college student.  When the LNW-80 came out in 1980, I would have loved to have been able to afford it as a TRS-80 compatible with color graphics, but I was still in collage and still poor.

Didn't forget, they are just a lot less common.

compucolor II.  Way rare.  Color Computer II is a TRS-80 and didn't come out till 83

I wanted an LNW-80.  Used artifacting for color.  I've seen less than 10 on ebay over the last decade. All $$$$

 

 

Edited October 1, 2022 by JamesD

[mutterminder]

Of course I meant the Compucolor II, such details fade with time.  I couldn't afford it then, and I can't afford it now.  I retrospect, it's probably a good thing.  It got very little software support, and nothing that would be of interest to me now. Now the LNW-80, is a different story.  I actually built and used the LNW expansion interface, as I could add the functional sections a little at a time.  I built the RAM first,  then the floppy disk drive interface, then the parallel port, and finally the serial port.  I should have saved up for the LNW80, because they are very rarely seen on the secondary market, and when they are, they are asking way more than I could afford to pay.   I do however, have two copies of the LNW80 Technical Reference Manual.  Which contain a full schematic and a parts list.  I know scans of this are available on the web, but mine have some hand written changes. I'm not sure if these are mods that the previous owner implemented or corrections.  With the proliferation of inexpensive PCB manufacturing companies, one could make an reproduction PCB and build your own.  Though the RAM and ROMs are still pretty easy to find, it might be better to update the design with some more modern RAM/ROM. 

 

While this would be cool to have, there is not much that could be done with it other than running TRS-80 software.  If I really wanted to take advantage of the color and high-res graphics, I'd probably have to write the software myself. Still, it would be an intriguing technological demonstration, of what could have been, had Tandy taken a different road on the TRS-80 line of computers.                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                       

Edited October 2, 2022 by mutterminder
Clarity.

[JamesD]

6 hours ago, mutterminder said:

Of course I meant the Compucolor II, such details fade with time.  I couldn't afford it then, and I can't afford it now.  I retrospect, it's probably a good thing.  It got very little software support, and nothing that would be of interest to me now. Now the LNW-80, is a different story.  I actually built and used the LNW expansion interface, as I could add the functional sections a little at a time.  I built the RAM first,  then the floppy disk drive interface, then the parallel port, and finally the serial port.  I should have saved up for the LNW80, because they are very rarely seen on the secondary market, and when they are, they are asking way more than I could afford to pay.   I do however, have two copies of the LNW80 Technical Reference Manual.  Which contain a full schematic and a parts list.  I know scans of this are available on the web, but mine have some hand written changes. I'm not sure if these are mods that the previous owner implemented or corrections.  With the proliferation of inexpensive PCB manufacturing companies, one could make an reproduction PCB and build your own.  Though the RAM and ROMs are still pretty easy to find, it might be better to update the design with some more modern RAM/ROM. 

 

While this would be cool to have, there is not much that could be done with it other than running TRS-80 software.  If I really wanted to take advantage of the color and high-res graphics, I'd probably have to write the software myself. Still, it would be an intriguing technological demonstration, of what could have been, had Tandy taken a different road on the TRS-80 line of computers.                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                       

You wanted the Compucolor II because of the Star Trek game in the ad didn't you? 
It was a weird beast.  8080 cpu, and you had to buy pre-formatted disks.  Very cool looking though.

I'd be happy with an LNW work alike.  The new graphics modes, and clock speed are the only major differences hardware wise I'm aware of.  Loved the white metal case.  That was pretty cool.

[mutterminder]

It's hard for me to remember exactly why I wanted the Compucolor II.  I was probably just looking at the raw specs that were available in the magazines.  The adds certainly did make it look sexy.  Eight color graphics when the Apple II only had six, 32 lines of text, a built in floppy drive.  It doesn't sound like much now. But at that time and that place, it made it stand up against the competition.

[pski]

In 1977 the demand was so great that the TRS-80 was selling itself.  The number of backorders surprised everyone at Tandy Radio Shack.  You'd be lucky to find even a demo model in your local Radio Shack until 1978.