Tomb Raider being ported to 3DO

[JagChris]

23 minutes ago, zetastrike said:

Who would have though that a nice gesture to the 3DO community would make some people so irritated?  

It was a lot of Doom and gloom. Look at that OMG it's not running at 60fps! 

 

It's only two weeks old. Let's wish the project well for a change. 

[sirlynxalot]

Let's say Tomb Raider 1 could be run on Jaguar in a decent fashion.  It's a pretty large and long game, would all the textures for the 3d objects even come close to fitting on a jag cart?

[JagChris]

1 hour ago, sirlynxalot said:

Let's say Tomb Raider 1 could be run on Jaguar in a decent fashion.  It's a pretty large and long game, would all the textures for the 3d objects even come close to fitting on a jag cart?

I doubt it. But I think the mass amount of different textures itself would be a problem just for the Jag to sling around. 

 

Maybe replace a lot of them with simple procedural texturing. You could compress the crap out of those. 

 

[+CyranoJ]

Seems like an awful lot of work to go through just to get sued by Square-Enix.

[JagChris]

9 hours ago, sd32 said:

I have read that while 3DO has an “easy” to use tool chain, it doesn’t really let you get the most of the system since you can’t code to the “metal” so to speak

?

 I understand you.

 

But I didn't say 'the most' out of the system. I said the tool chain will help you get MORE out of the system faster. 

[JagChris]

8 hours ago, dilinger said:

Does he started coding from scratch? or used the reengineered code available in Github and integrated his own renderer?

 

From the lack of response I'm guessing the answer isn't known to anyone here. 

 

You can try asking in his YT channel. 

[+CyranoJ]

54 minutes ago, JagChris said:

You can try asking in his YT channel. 

But the way you've been posting all over the place about this, we thought you were his PR guy...

[JagChris]

It's a very interesting project. But I'm not the only one posting or intrigued by it. 

[agradeneu]

7 hours ago, JagChris said:

I doubt it. But I think the mass amount of different textures itself would be a problem just for the Jag to sling around. 

 

Maybe replace a lot of them with simple procedural texturing. You could compress the crap out of those. 

 

Most likely textures are tiled, to save memory as  space is limited. It draws large surfaces with a couple of small textures. It basically works like in 2D games, where you can draw a huge map with just 1  tiny 16x16 tile.

Edited November 2, 2021 by agradeneu

[+cubanismo]

I don't care at all about this getting released or "finished," and I'll go out on a limb and say I doubt the authors do either. I never played the original Tomb Raider even though it was in my vast PC Warez stash when it came out. Beyond the novelty of Lara's ridiculous-looking polygonal body (I mean, we all had access to the internet by this point, right? Were boobs really that novel?), I never really understood the appeal of the franchise, though the newer installments do look like much better games.

 

Regardless, it's very impressive work on a technical level, even if it is just running in some entirely software/CPU-rendered path right now. Any time someone goes and builds something everyone says can't be done, I'm having a good time. Now, we can keep arguing the same tired pseudo-technical debate over whether the Jag can do it too, or raise a glass to the achievement and wait until someone feels like doing something similarly impressive with 64 bits. I'm relatively new here, but having read through a lot of the older posts on this forum over the past year, I have a feeling I know which direction the discussion will go.

[sirlynxalot]

The levels were massive and 3d.  I think that was a big deal for the time. It evoked the feel that you were exploring something rather than going through a narrow maze to get to the exit in a few minutes (doom), or running around a small 3d level (jumping flash), or being in a 3d world but being essentially confined to running along a rail (crash bandicoot)

[pacman000]

17 hours ago, CyranoJ said:

Seems like an awful lot of work to go through just to get sued by Square-Enix.

Obviously then, someone should make "Catacomb Wanderer." It's the Atari Corp way!

[youxia]

You gotta love the modern revisionism I've seen it applied to literally every single retro classic, from Ultima, through Mario/Zelda, to Halo. Some people just love turning up their noses and 'splainin why these games were actually nothing to write home about, but the silly people BITD got their heads turned somehow.

 

But the fact remains that all these games (TR included) were revolutionary on many levels - not only regarding gfx - and more importantly also very playable. And they still are to this very day.

[+cubanismo]

5 minutes ago, youxia said:

You gotta love the modern revisionism

Modern? Revisionism? I didn't care for it in 1996. I'm aware it wasn't the popular opinion, at least in the gaming press at the time. I just never understood it. The graphics were pretty good, I'll allow that. However, I was in high school at the time, and the only thing positive I ever heard about it from my fellow local gamers was about Lara's boobs. No one actually wanted to play it. We were busy playing Quake.

[sd32]

I don’t understand the bickering over the frame rate given how early this is, the coder says there is a lot of optimization ahead

 

And it’s already moving smoother (for the most part) than some “impressive” textured mapped jJaguar titles like Hover Strike while being a much more complex game

 

Also reading people complaining about the quality of Tomb Raider as a game itself... come in guys TR is a better game than 90% of the original home brew stuff we usually get... if it’s not your type of game, fine. But let’s not downplay this huge project

 

Whats also cool is that this can also spark competitiveness among different console home brewers... just read at Sega16 that veteran 32X coder Chilly Willy thinks he could achieve something similar and in some ways better than this early 3DO project on the 32X... we shall see

Edited November 3, 2021 by sd32

[+cubanismo]

I better respond one more time, because my prior comments are clearly not coming across how I intended. I didn't mean to detract from the accomplishment at all with my complaints about Tomb Raider as a game. The game isn't my cup of tea, and I thought that was a more widely held view so I tossed a little snark in.

 

What I wanted to convey is that this is amazing stuff to see, and I'm genuinely excited to read about it and follow it. I wanted to emphasize that by pointing out I don't even like Tomb Raider as a game, and similarly don't have any interest in the 3DO, yet I'm still excited to follow along. To those who have been looking for an excuse to re-play Tomb Raider and have a 3DO, cheers. Sorry if I rained on your parade. After all, I'm using the Jaguar as an excuse to re-play Wolfenstein 3D.

[agradeneu]

3 hours ago, sd32 said:

 

 

Also reading people complaining about the quality of Tomb Raider as a game itself... come in guys TR is a better game than 90% of the original home brew stuff we usually get... if it’s not your type of game, fine. But let’s not downplay this huge project

 

 

And that is the problem IMO - some people, like you misunderstand this project to rub it under the noses of Jaguar devs, to downplay what was achieved in the last couple of years on our platform.

 

Well, I have a different opinion: I think most of our homebrews are more playable than this 5FPS port.

But lets reckon the elephant in the room:  its highly risky to port popular IPs without permission of the copyright holders, e.g. Square Enix. 

Even if someone could port this to Jaguar, there are several red flags here. 

 It makes great headlines to get a famous game running, but I prefer playable games that are fun and original. And lets not forget that there is a difference between porting a popular game and coding/designed a new game from scratch. 

Most 3D games did not age well for me, and that also includes TR IMO. Its impressive, yes, but mostly technical. 

 

And no, it does not run well compared to Jaguar 3D atm, it's at "Supercross 3D" level if you ask me. We will see how much it can be improved. But getting it to a playable state won't be an easy thing, even IF you had some sort of "magical" tool chain. 

 

Edited November 3, 2021 by agradeneu

[sd32]

39 minutes ago, agradeneu said:

And that is the problem IMO - some people, like you misunderstand this project to rub it under the noses of Jaguar devs, to downplay what was achieved in the last couple of years on our platform.

 

Well, I have a different opinion: I think most of our homebrews are more playable than this 5FPS port.

But lets reckon the elephant in the room:  its highly risky to port popular IPs without permission of the copyright holders, e.g. Square Enix. 

Even if someone could port this to Jaguar, there are several red flags here. 

 It makes great headlines to get a famous game running, but I prefer playable games that are fun and original. And lets not forget that there is a difference between porting a popular game and coding/designed a new game from scratch. 

Most 3D games did not age well for me, and that also includes TR IMO. Its impressive, yes, but mostly technical. 

 

And no, it does not run well compared to Jaguar 3D atm, it's at "Supercross 3D" level if you ask me. We will see how much it can be improved. But getting it to a playable state won't be an easy thing, even IF you had some sort of "magical" tool chain. 

 

I meant the original Tomb Raider On PS1 Is better than most homebrew games we get in the Jaggy... not this super early 3DO port... at least not yet

 

And come on... comparing this to Supercross 3D? 

Also, funny how the autor of this 3DO port already released an iso, while the Jag 3D messiahs whom boasted for years how they were to bring the bestest 3D engines on the Jaggy never released nothing... NOT THAT THEY HAD TO, but after so much hype it would have been nice

 

Sorry if I offended the Jag coding community... with my previous post... I just wanted so establish that TR on PS1, PC, Saturn is really solid...

Edited November 3, 2021 by sd32

[sd32]

 

[JagChris]

5fps?  You ever played wtr? This is better than that and that's not even that bad. 

 

The guy in the video is staying high teens for fps and I'd have to agree. 

[IntelliMission]

I agree that games with 2D controls are better (except for driving/flying sims), but some games are exceptions. Some examples are the first Silent Hill... and the first Tomb Raider.

 

Unlike most 3D games today, Tomb Raider focuses on the gameplay, not on the story. And tank controls gave the game a precision that was lost with analog sticks (which, in my opinion, killed platform and sports games).

 

I seriously recommend @cubanismo and others that believe Tomb Raider is "just boobs" to read the following article:

 

Gamedeveloper.com: Untold Riches: The Intricate Platforming of Tomb Raider: What game design gems lurk in the unexplored nooks and crannies of the original 1996 Tomb Raider? With the franchise now rebooted, designer Hamish Todd takes a close look at the series' first game, and the possibilities its constrained platforming allowed.

 

And perhaps give the game a chance. I recommend the PC version, as console versions use limited crystals for saving.

 

@cubanismo I also loved Quake at the time, and now I like Tomb Raider better due to the exploration and digital controls. Tomb Raider provides an experience (with the enemies being animals and appearing suddenly) that was far superior to TR2 or TR3.

[phoboz]

I wonder why game for a different console is discussed here in the Jaguar forum?

Isn't there a 3DO forum?

 

I'd rather see an intelligent person picking the source code for Dactyl Joust and give us an unique game. Tomb Raider can be played on so many other consoles, and on PC.

Edited November 3, 2021 by phoboz

[agradeneu]

4 hours ago, JagChris said:

5fps?  You ever played wtr? This is better than that and that's not even that bad. 

 

The guy in the video is staying high teens for fps and I'd have to agree. 

Yeah, its 7-15 most of the time. There is a FPS counter top right. 

However, I was referring to a different video where he is in a huge hall with pillars and the FPS drop hard.

Edited November 3, 2021 by agradeneu

[Lostdragon]

It's disspointing to see this thread starting to fall apart at the seams as there are some very valid points being made. 

 

The elephant in the room is indeed as  Agradeneu said, Tomb Raider is an active and still highly popular I.P owned by Square Enix who also own the Soul Star I. P, where as with the latter only saw release on one system and was cancelled on add-on devices for two other commercially unsuccessful platforms, Tomb Raider is a rather different kettle of fish. 

 

How they will react remains to be seen. 

 

 

@SD32:i think the issue with a certain Jaguar 3D Messiah was what he actually released, disspointing many... 

 

 

When your promised... 

 

 

 

 

But receive... 

 

 

Feelings are going to run high. 

 

 

Any incidents before this were before my time on the forum and I am firmly in the camp of not caring if a game is 2D or 3D,if it's bloody playable, I am on it. 

 

 

I'd of loved to of seen Conan developed fully as it's my style of game, but then things like Black Ice White Noise and Dactyl Joust had huge potential. 

 

 

I would of chewed my left arm off for a commercial release during the time for the gorgeous looking  Gravitic Mines and Fallen Angels.

 

 

Existing Jaguar owners, I envy you. 

 

 

 

Edited November 3, 2021 by Lostdragon
Phone Autocorrect issue

[sd32]

6 hours ago, phoboz said:

I wonder why game for a different console is discussed here in the Jaguar forum?

Isn't there a 3DO forum?

There is... and, oops, someone actually opened a similar tread there??... my apologies