Mazzspeed Posted November 3, 2021 Share Posted November 3, 2021 (edited) 8 hours ago, Mr Robot said: Anyone gonna criticise this for having a non-quittable intro sequence?... Nope didn't think so! It's on my tnfs server in the 2021 folder for any fujinet owners who fancy trying it out. Does the condescending discussion from another thread really need to be brought into this thread? Honestly, it's just not necessary and definitely isn't going to promote friendly, positive and open discussion. Relax. If you wouldn't say what you're thinking to the person's face in real life for fear of repercussion, then it's probably best not to say what you're thinking in a public forum where your comments are going to exist for a very long time - Generally speaking, especially when you're trying to promote a product. This is a very interesting game, looks cool. I've downloaded it and plan on giving it a shot at a time when my back isn't killing me. ? Edited November 3, 2021 by Mazzspeed 3 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
emkay Posted November 3, 2021 Share Posted November 3, 2021 (edited) Is the game using POKEY interrupts somehow? Here is a video with some background sound using hardware intervalls by POKEY. One change per second , 16 different values. 15kHz clocking. Just for some impression ... the additional sound is played on RMT, btw. Edited November 3, 2021 by emkay 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jacques Posted November 3, 2021 Share Posted November 3, 2021 A big thank you to Everyone involved in the project, what a surprise!? It's all-around extremely polished game: the intro, music, sounds, controls, weapons, map, status bar... Real treasure for our beloved 8-bit Atari ? 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mr Robot Posted November 3, 2021 Share Posted November 3, 2021 2 hours ago, Mazzspeed said: Does the condescending discussion from another thread really need to be brought into this thread? Honestly, it's just not necessary and definitely isn't going to promote friendly, positive and open discussion. Relax. Humour isn't one of your strengths is it. Does the antagonistic attitude and unwelcome vitriol really need to? 2 hours ago, Mazzspeed said: If you wouldn't say what you're thinking to the person's face in real life for fear of repercussion, then it's probably best not to say what you're thinking in a public forum where your comments are going to exist for a very long time - Generally speaking, especially when you're trying to promote a product. I never say anything online that I wouldnt say to someones face, or be willing to shout in a public space. Anyone who does, hasn't worked out how to 'online' yet. Product? 3 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
xxl Posted November 3, 2021 Share Posted November 3, 2021 this is how I see the world when I take my glasses off. I think this is the first 3D shooter on Atari? Great stuff. 2 3 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Flojomojo Posted November 3, 2021 Share Posted November 3, 2021 Looking at these graphics on the old hardware is amazing — back in the day I would have been mesmerized by these visuals for hours. Well done, astounding work! 4 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ilmenit Posted November 3, 2021 Share Posted November 3, 2021 (edited) Congratulations on the finished and very polished game! It's a great achievement, the first "modern" first person shooter on A8, and it fits into 64KB!. Great job, with a lot of technical difficulties solved. I have a question about the 3D projection of the walls, because there seems to be something wrong with it. It's especially visible during rotation, during which the walls do not change the angles and the rotation looks like a scrolling, not a 3D projection. Take a look at the following comparison of rotation in Final Assault and the Project M. I tried to find a similar wall (2x1) observed from similar spot. Not sure what's the cause of it - too parallel rays? issue with fish eye correction? too big/small distance from observer to projection plane? I think why it's one of the reasons why it's hard to mind-map the actual 3D space in the game and there is a need to switch to 2D map often. EDIT: Ok, I think I know the reason for it. Take a look at the following picture with two different view cones (blue and red) and a green wall. In case of blue cone of view the wall is parallel to the view, however in case of red it's not parallel. It seems that projection used in this game is simplified from the standard raycasting algorithm (not sure if intentionally or not) and the distance of the rays to the wall do not depend on the position of the ray on the screen, but is reusing the angles from rotation. The distance to the wall should have been calculated a bit differently for proper projection. Edited November 3, 2021 by ilmenit 10 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Legoxx Posted November 3, 2021 Share Posted November 3, 2021 I have posted Final Assault on Hacker News. Can we reach #1?:-) vote! https://news.ycombinator.com/news (11th so far) 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
globe Posted November 3, 2021 Author Share Posted November 3, 2021 16 hours ago, Mr Robot said: Anyone gonna criticise this for having a non-quittable intro sequence?... Nope didn't think so! Hold Start+Select+Option !!! these need to be pressed during first depacking, before 'GMG production' screen starts to appear !!! 7 hours ago, emkay said: Is the game using POKEY interrupts somehow? No. Sound effects are done through normal 4 channels and the clicking of proximity detector is done through writes into CONSOL / $D01F 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
globe Posted November 3, 2021 Author Share Posted November 3, 2021 2 hours ago, ilmenit said: I have a question about the 3D projection of the walls, because there seems to be something wrong with it. It's especially visible during rotation, during which the walls do not change the angles and the rotation looks like a scrolling, not a 3D projection. I'd guess there are 2 main reasons for things going a bit wonky. I sacrificed precision for speed and threw out fish eye correction routine with it's 5KB large lookup table when Ram got extra tight. Another reason might be that there's relatively low number of vertical sizes for wall slices so even when the slice goes farther or closer just a little bit, it's not really visible. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pseudografx Posted November 3, 2021 Share Posted November 3, 2021 So I guess this could be sorted out in a potential 130XE extended version? 3 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
globe Posted November 3, 2021 Author Share Posted November 3, 2021 2 minutes ago, pseudografx said: So I guess this could be sorted out in a potential 130XE extended version? Hopefully. I have couple of ideas on paper that could speed things up and make them look a bit nicer too. But it will take time and there are other works in the pipeline too so don't hold your breath. 7 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
danwinslow Posted November 3, 2021 Share Posted November 3, 2021 43 minutes ago, globe said: Hopefully. I have couple of ideas on paper that could speed things up and make them look a bit nicer too. But it will take time and there are other works in the pipeline too so don't hold your breath. Just me, but I don't think you should worry about the 64k limit. You've done this - it's amazing. Grab another 64k and go nuts for V2.0. The user base nowadays is pretty upgraded, and there's always altirra. 5 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
emkay Posted November 3, 2021 Share Posted November 3, 2021 4 hours ago, ilmenit said: Congratulations on the finished and very polished game! It's a great achievement, the first "modern" first person shooter on A8, and it fits into 64KB!. Great job, with a lot of technical difficulties solved. I have a question about the 3D projection of the walls, because there seems to be something wrong with it. It's especially visible during rotation, during which the walls do not change the angles and the rotation looks like a scrolling, not a 3D projection. Take a look at the following comparison of rotation in Final Assault and the Project M. I tried to find a similar wall (2x1) observed from similar spot. Not sure what's the cause of it - too parallel rays? issue with fish eye correction? too big/small distance from observer to projection plane? I think why it's one of the reasons why it's hard to mind-map the actual 3D space in the game and there is a need to switch to 2D map often. EDIT: Ok, I think I know the reason for it. Take a look at the following picture with two different view cones (blue and red) and a green wall. In case of blue cone of view the wall is parallel to the view, however in case of red it's not parallel. It seems that projection used in this game is simplified from the standard raycasting algorithm (not sure if intentionally or not) and the distance of the rays to the wall do not depend on the position of the ray on the screen, but is reusing the angles from rotation. The distance to the wall should have been calculated a bit differently for proper projection. The projection in Project-M is not real. Why should the angle change, if you just turn around ? The angle in Final Assault changes, if you move. So everything fine in the game. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
danwinslow Posted November 3, 2021 Share Posted November 3, 2021 Um, neither projection is 'real'. The FA one does not respect some points of proper perspective handling. The FA one is more like moving sideways rather than actually turning. Not a huge deal to me, but it's there. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Heaven/TQA Posted November 3, 2021 Share Posted November 3, 2021 6 hours ago, xxl said: this is how I see the world when I take my glasses off. I think this is the first 3D shooter on Atari? Great stuff. Midi Maze? 3 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Heaven/TQA Posted November 3, 2021 Share Posted November 3, 2021 4 hours ago, ilmenit said: Congratulations on the finished and very polished game! It's a great achievement, the first "modern" first person shooter on A8, and it fits into 64KB!. Great job, with a lot of technical difficulties solved. I have a question about the 3D projection of the walls, because there seems to be something wrong with it. It's especially visible during rotation, during which the walls do not change the angles and the rotation looks like a scrolling, not a 3D projection. Take a look at the following comparison of rotation in Final Assault and the Project M. I tried to find a similar wall (2x1) observed from similar spot. Not sure what's the cause of it - too parallel rays? issue with fish eye correction? too big/small distance from observer to projection plane? I think why it's one of the reasons why it's hard to mind-map the actual 3D space in the game and there is a need to switch to 2D map often. EDIT: Ok, I think I know the reason for it. Take a look at the following picture with two different view cones (blue and red) and a green wall. In case of blue cone of view the wall is parallel to the view, however in case of red it's not parallel. It seems that projection used in this game is simplified from the standard raycasting algorithm (not sure if intentionally or not) and the distance of the rays to the wall do not depend on the position of the ray on the screen, but is reusing the angles from rotation. The distance to the wall should have been calculated a bit differently for proper projection. that's what I thought, too, when playing around with the game. 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Heaven/TQA Posted November 3, 2021 Share Posted November 3, 2021 (edited) 2 hours ago, globe said: I'd guess there are 2 main reasons for things going a bit wonky. I sacrificed precision for speed and threw out fish eye correction routine with it's 5KB large lookup table when Ram got extra tight. Another reason might be that there's relatively low number of vertical sizes for wall slices so even when the slice goes farther or closer just a little bit, it's not really visible. what "unrolled code" are you using? for tmapping the slices? because the tables itself should be not so ram consuming imho. tables used on the SNES Raycaster below. 1 map is 16x16 grid mirrored 4x so no "signed" check needed when casting. on the SNES I use depths shading based on Carmack's color mapping algorithm used in Doom. MAZE = $1d00-$400 ;0400 (L) TXTHI = $8000 ;2000 (L) each texture line in 1 page! so texelxy(txt+x+y*256) TXTLO = $8000 ;4000 ;2000 (L) ;FREE: 6800-68FF DISTABL = $6900-$4900 ;0200 (L) DISTABH = DISTABL+$100 MOVCOS = $6B00-$4900 ;0060 (L) MOVSIN = $6B60-$4900 ;0060 (L) COS = $6BC0-$4900 ;0060 (L) INVCOS = $6C20-$4900 ;0060 (L) arccos acos ;WHAT: 6C60-6C9F OFFSH = $6CA0-$4900 ;0060 (L) OFFSXL = $6D00-$4900 ;00C0 (L) OFFSYL = OFFSXL+$60 SCALE = $c000 ;scaletab_copy ;$b000 ;D800 ;0900 (LT) DISPLAY = $c000+16+32*128 ;0C00 (G) vram shadetabs = $00000 Edited November 3, 2021 by Heaven/TQA 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jetboot Jack Posted November 3, 2021 Share Posted November 3, 2021 What an absolutely amazing game - that is fantastic work, @globe huge congratulations! 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
emkay Posted November 3, 2021 Share Posted November 3, 2021 50 minutes ago, danwinslow said: Um, neither projection is 'real'. The FA one does not respect some points of proper perspective handling. The FA one is more like moving sideways rather than actually turning. Not a huge deal to me, but it's there. The movement is not visible due the low resolution. But, as soon as you move, it is correctly shown. The projection is "real". Project-M acts like you move sidewards, not just rotating. If you get used to play with walk turn and strafe, you will immediately recognize the well projection. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Heaven/TQA Posted November 3, 2021 Share Posted November 3, 2021 1 hour ago, emkay said: The projection in Project-M is not real. Why should the angle change, if you just turn around ? The angle in Final Assault changes, if you move. So everything fine in the game. what???? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
emkay Posted November 3, 2021 Share Posted November 3, 2021 1 minute ago, Heaven/TQA said: what???? EVERYTHING IS FINE IN THE GAME . I wrote it in big letters, so you might read it better. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
emkay Posted November 3, 2021 Share Posted November 3, 2021 @globe You see the starting discussion? Seems, you really did it right to show the game at this final state. Otherwise this missing Genre never would have been filled. Particular the 3D stuff ended up in messed up demos, or unplayable slow solutions. Or people have even been nagged till they lost their patience. Ending up getting banned... You must be some "rensoupp" guy to handle this all , and to finalize a game by all this hammering here in the forums. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ilmenit Posted November 3, 2021 Share Posted November 3, 2021 8 minutes ago, Heaven/TQA said: what???? Just add Emkay to Ignore List and life will be easier As usually he doesn't understand the issue and has no idea why in case of additionally moving sideways the angle will change and why it should also without moving but only rotating. 4 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
emkay Posted November 3, 2021 Share Posted November 3, 2021 (edited) 12 minutes ago, ilmenit said: Just add Emkay to Ignore List and life will be easier As usually he doesn't understand the issue and has no idea why in case of additionally moving sideways the angle will change and why it should also without moving but only rotating. Ilmenit has no idea about moving inside a virtual room, neither what reality is. I'm not blocking ignorant people, because I'm not a 2 years old child. The vertical change is not that big to add a different pixel of that size. As soon as the level is reached, the pixels obviously get changed. And, as I wrote before: The high framerate is the most valuable part here. Edited November 3, 2021 by emkay Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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