LessNick Posted June 13, 2022 Share Posted June 13, 2022 Hello there o/ Having found an archive of cassette images on the Internet, I came across a strange note that some of dump only work on real atari, but not on emulators. Having downloaded the "Boulder Dash" dump for testing, I really made sure that the download occurs up to a certain part, after which the computer is reset to the "SelfTest". What can be wrong? Any tricky timings? boulder_dash[pigwa].cas Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mclaneinc Posted June 13, 2022 Share Posted June 13, 2022 Just tried that cas file twice on the latest beta and it loaded fine on both occasions, part one sets up the cas loader for part two and custom screen which then loads part two. Set as PAL XL. Ok with NTSC but not with OSB or A. Craps out to notepad on those after first load. 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Xuel Posted June 13, 2022 Share Posted June 13, 2022 (edited) 10 hours ago, LessNick said: Having downloaded the "Boulder Dash" dump for testing, I really made sure that the download occurs up to a certain part, after which the computer is reset to the "SelfTest". Make sure you disable cassette acceleration: System -> Configure System -> Acceleration -> Uncheck "C: patch" It takes about 7 minutes to load fully. You can hold down F1 to speed it up. Edited June 13, 2022 by Xuel 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LessNick Posted June 13, 2022 Share Posted June 13, 2022 5 minutes ago, Xuel said: Make sure you disable cassette acceleration Well, that is, the loader does not like the accelerated loading of the emulator. More precisely, he does not like the modification of the bootloader (patch), which most likely is not correctly applied, since not quite standard functions are used. I see. Thanks. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mclaneinc Posted June 13, 2022 Share Posted June 13, 2022 A little like the problem with C64 disk turbo loaders, if you have a hardware fast loader OS like Jiffy DOS then it can clash with the software turbo loader, so now many titles appear with an option to deactivate the software turbo loader. The fun and games of patches... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
phaeron Posted June 14, 2022 Author Share Posted June 14, 2022 Couple of issues here. The main issue with this loader is a hardcoded jump into a cassette loading routine in the XL/XE OS at $ED3D after the first stage. This means that the loader won't work on any other OS. OS-B has the cassette loading routines at a different address; the loader makes it into the sync loop but ends up skipping some critical setup steps, causing the load to fail. So you need the XL/XE OS to load this tape. As for accelerated loading with C: in emulation, due to the hardcoded jump the loader has a dependency on a few variables being set that the emulator hooks currently don't. In Altirra, the specific issue is that TIMFLG needs to be reset by the read block routine for that jump to succeed. This is easy to fix and I'll have the tweak in the next test version. The loader does something else strange which makes me suspect that the problematic jump may be copy protection. The block load that's causing the problem uses 1200 baud instead of 600. This is unusual because it's beyond what the OS cassette routines support; they use a table lookup based mechanism that only supports up to 900 baud, and this causes the OS to read far off the table and compute a garbage divisor in the $9Dxx range. What's suspicious is that the loader actually checks for this, which is not something that a sane programmer would normally do. 7 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mclaneinc Posted June 14, 2022 Share Posted June 14, 2022 5 hours ago, phaeron said: which is not something that a sane programmer would normally do. Very few of the hackers / then to be devs that I knew could be described as fully sane One guy who was involved with Marko's magic football (think that was the title) on the SNES (never properly released) was, shall we say, touched I know you were not actually venturing down the actual mental health road, but it's amazing how many dev folk I knew / met were borderline.. Present company excluded... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
phaeron Posted June 18, 2022 Author Share Posted June 18, 2022 https://www.virtualdub.org/beta/Altirra-4.10-test14.zip https://www.virtualdub.org/beta/Altirra-4.10-test14-src.7z SIO acceleration routines now set/clear TIMFLG. This fixes the Boulder Dash tape above with accelerated C: enabled. Fixed busted tape signal trace channels in Performance Analyzer after an accelerated load. Improved load speed of large text files into debugger source windows. Fixed a crash when opening source windows with deferred symbol loads. Fixed Step Into and Step Out not using source mode when used in a source window that is undocked. AltirraOS updated to 3.14: now uses correct values for TIMFLG, and improves compatibility of undocumented register state on tape boot to fix another variant of the above loader. (These seem to have been sold from some store in Poland? Or maybe a BBS....) Load progress dialog is suppressed in exclusive full-screen mode to avoid popping out of full screen when loading tapes. 12 3 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
scotty Posted June 21, 2022 Share Posted June 21, 2022 On 6/18/2022 at 4:28 AM, phaeron said: https://www.virtualdub.org/beta/Altirra-4.10-test14.zip https://www.virtualdub.org/beta/Altirra-4.10-test14-src.7z SIO acceleration routines now set/clear TIMFLG. This fixes the Boulder Dash tape above with accelerated C: enabled. Fixed busted tape signal trace channels in Performance Analyzer after an accelerated load. Improved load speed of large text files into debugger source windows. Fixed a crash when opening source windows with deferred symbol loads. Fixed Step Into and Step Out not using source mode when used in a source window that is undocked. AltirraOS updated to 3.14: now uses correct values for TIMFLG, and improves compatibility of undocumented register state on tape boot to fix another variant of the above loader. (These seem to have been sold from some store in Poland? Or maybe a BBS....) Load progress dialog is suppressed in exclusive full-screen mode to avoid popping out of full screen when loading tapes. Is it just me, or does anyone else not use real hardware any more? I have an 800XL on the same desk as my PC with Ultimate1MB, S-Drive Max, Fujinet, SIO2PC and Sophia board, and I still use Altirra all the time. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
+Stephen Posted June 21, 2022 Share Posted June 21, 2022 59 minutes ago, scotty said: Is it just me, or does anyone else not use real hardware any more? I have an 800XL on the same desk as my PC with Ultimate1MB, S-Drive Max, Fujinet, SIO2PC and Sophia board, and I still use Altirra all the time. Nope - I use real hardware way more than emulator. Probably helps that I have my 1088XLD so nicely outfitted (U1MB, VBXE, Covox, stereo, S2 wave blaster midi board) connected to a 20" 600 line Sony PVM via RGB. Emulation is nice, but nothing beats the real thing, especially on a kick ass CRT. That said, I do all of my coding using the Altirra due to the wonderful debugger. 3 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Keatah Posted June 21, 2022 Share Posted June 21, 2022 Well there's reliability, simplicity, convenience, versatility, portability, and elegance, to be had with emulation. I haven't played with real classic hardware, other than sentimental Apple II & PC stuff, in years. I prefer hardware minimalism nowadays compared to when I was into it back in the 80's - when sprawling setups were a sign of awesomeness. So much less to go wrong. So much less to be fussing over. Lookatit thisaway. If I wanna do gaming and light productivity and re-experience all the software I had as a kid, a simple (real or emulated) Atari 400/800 (XL or XE included) will suffice. And that means the basics, AC adapter, switchbox, joystick & paddles, disk & tape, and monitor/TV. That's what most of us had as kids. That's the stuff that has meaning and memories. That's the essence of 8-bit fun! We never had an Ultimate1MB, Covox, S-Drive Max, Rapidus, Fujinet, SIO2PC, Stereo Pokey, VBXE, Sophia board, or any modern-day whizbangery. So add-ons don't bring anything to the nostalgia table. I figure a well endowed emulator on an i7 PC is going to cover all that, perform better, be more reliable, and just generally be less fussy than a machine modded with a boatload of today's mods. On my Apple II I only use a Flash memory device from time to time. Otherwise it's oldschool. Because it's oldschool. Not because I want it thataway, but because it is thataway. The infrastructure and support a PC provides is unparalleled and unmatchable. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mclaneinc Posted June 21, 2022 Share Posted June 21, 2022 I switch between emulator and hardware all the time because if I find a possible issue I want to check it on real hardware before making an arse of myself reporting a non issue (still manage to do it sometimes, DOH!). I'm not here to sell the use of Altirra to anyone but I simply can't understand people not seeing the total benefit of the emulator, there's no maintenance costs, it morphs in to whatever machine configuration you could ever want, the onboard debugger is stunning (not that I understand all of it ) and of course, the compatibility is incredible, something Avery would probably downplay as he's not the bragging kind, but nonetheless it IS accurate to a gold standard. I love my real hardware, the poor old couple of 1050's I have get no love because the AVG is so damn good, but I do service the drives. I don't see Altirra as a downgrade, quite the opposite, I see it as the dream machine I never got in real life. Sometimes I think people confuse the joy of playing say, Jumpman on a real machine with the actual joy of just playing the game, it plays the same either way. Is it nice to play it on the real hardware, yes, it's debatable that it's more immersive that way but for me, the fact I'm playing the game and it feels like it did back then is more than enough to polish my rose tinted specs Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
oo7 Posted June 21, 2022 Share Posted June 21, 2022 10 hours ago, Keatah said: Well there's reliability, simplicity, convenience, versatility, portability, and elegance, to be had with emulation. I haven't played with real classic hardware, other than sentimental Apple II & PC stuff, in years. I prefer hardware minimalism nowadays compared to when I was into it back in the 80's - when sprawling setups were a sign of awesomeness. So much less to go wrong. So much less to be fussing over. Lookatit thisaway. If I wanna do gaming and light productivity and re-experience all the software I had as a kid, a simple (real or emulated) Atari 400/800 (XL or XE included) will suffice. And that means the basics, AC adapter, switchbox, joystick & paddles, disk & tape, and monitor/TV. That's what most of us had as kids. That's the stuff that has meaning and memories. That's the essence of 8-bit fun! We never had an Ultimate1MB, Covox, S-Drive Max, Rapidus, Fujinet, SIO2PC, Stereo Pokey, VBXE, Sophia board, or any modern-day whizbangery. So add-ons don't bring anything to the nostalgia table. I figure a well endowed emulator on an i7 PC is going to cover all that, perform better, be more reliable, and just generally be less fussy than a machine modded with a boatload of today's mods. On my Apple II I only use a Flash memory device from time to time. Otherwise it's oldschool. Because it's oldschool. Not because I want it thataway, but because it is thataway. The infrastructure and support a PC provides is unparalleled and unmatchable. And this is why I have a 11" dell inspiron 3000 2 in 1 dedicated to Altirra. Runs everything my real hardware does, allows proper pal and ntsc mode, portable, hdmi out when i want a big screen. I mainly went with that machine for it as I get about 10 hours altirra on battery and its tiny to lug around. Good emulation on good hardware is a dream come true. (I like having real hardware to have it) But I enjoy A8 via altirra on my media center and on my portable so much more. Having lived and used atari in both PAL and NTSC regions make it amazing to have a setup do both properly on the fly. (big diffs to be seen pal vs ntsc more than it sounds if you actually experiance it.) example james bond living daylights looks like a grid mess on ntsc and wonderful in pal. but being used to pac man on ntsc and centipede 5200 on ntsc give me that speed. Best of all worlds when you emulate. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mclaneinc Posted June 21, 2022 Share Posted June 21, 2022 48 minutes ago, oo7 said: Best of all worlds when you emulate. Exactamundo.. If there's a tool out there that can give me the experience I desire, then I'm going to use it...Simples... 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TGB1718 Posted June 21, 2022 Share Posted June 21, 2022 4 hours ago, oo7 said: Best of all worlds when you emulate. Same when writing code, I use MADS and CC65 mainly, just so easy to compile your code copy the files to a folder that is mounted in Altirra as a Virtual DOS 2 drive and your running the code in seconds after the compile and of course Altirra's debugger Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Keatah Posted June 21, 2022 Share Posted June 21, 2022 1 hour ago, oo7 said: And this is why I have a 11" dell inspiron 3000 2 in 1 dedicated to Altirra. That's great. Have you thought of adding a few discrete badges or some sort of decoration to signify "Atari"? This can be hard to do without looking tacky, but I remember seeing a silver Atari logo 1 sq in. on fleabay. I recall Ben Heckendorn doing a lot of repackaging of Atari hardware into the handheld and laptop form factors. They were rather fragile chunky looking things but had plenty of design elements from the 70's and 80's. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ricky Spanish Posted June 21, 2022 Share Posted June 21, 2022 When I use Altirra I try to emulate the real deal as close as possible. No acceleration, no generic OS, no modified program languages, etc. But it is fun to emulate modern modifications on it though. When my real one arrives the only mods will be what was available back in the day. 256K RAMBO, and alike. However it will run on my LCD monitor, as I very much dislike old CRT monitors. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mclaneinc Posted June 21, 2022 Share Posted June 21, 2022 1 hour ago, Ricky Spanish said: When I use Altirra I try to emulate the real deal as close as possible. No acceleration, no generic OS, no modified program languages, etc. But it is fun to emulate modern modifications on it though. When my real one arrives the only mods will be what was available back in the day. 256K RAMBO, and alike. However it will run on my LCD monitor, as I very much dislike old CRT monitors. Most folk are the opposite re CRT, I'm having to use one until I FINALLY put the new flyback into my 8833MKII, as for OS, I often run Omnimon, owned a real one back then and I have to admit I'm not up to speed on Altirra's debugger. Have fun Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
+Stephen Posted June 21, 2022 Share Posted June 21, 2022 2 hours ago, Mclaneinc said: Most folk are the opposite re CRT, I'm having to use one until I FINALLY put the new flyback into my 8833MKII, as for OS, I often run Omnimon, owned a real one back then and I have to admit I'm not up to speed on Altirra's debugger. Have fun Yeah - LCDs are great until: Something scrolls horizontally Something scrolls vertically Anything on the image moves You want to use a light gun You want to use a light pen You want something with no input lag Combine with an emulator on LCD for the worst of both worlds (In case it's not painfully obvious, the last post with the smiley is called sarcasm, before the emulator and LCD crowd bring out the flaming pitchforks) 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
oo7 Posted June 21, 2022 Share Posted June 21, 2022 6 hours ago, Keatah said: That's great. Have you thought of adding a few discrete badges or some sort of decoration to signify "Atari"? This can be hard to do without looking tacky, but I remember seeing a silver Atari logo 1 sq in. on fleabay. I recall Ben Heckendorn doing a lot of repackaging of Atari hardware into the handheld and laptop form factors. They were rather fragile chunky looking things but had plenty of design elements from the 70's and 80's. Thats been the only challenge . I want the atari feel on the case so bad. Havnt done anything yet Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
oo7 Posted June 21, 2022 Share Posted June 21, 2022 6 hours ago, Keatah said: That's great. Have you thought of adding a few discrete badges or some sort of decoration to signify "Atari"? This can be hard to do without looking tacky, but I remember seeing a silver Atari logo 1 sq in. on fleabay. I recall Ben Heckendorn doing a lot of repackaging of Atari hardware into the handheld and laptop form factors. They were rather fragile chunky looking things but had plenty of design elements from the 70's and 80's. My toddler enjoying some pole position via altirra on the machine i picked up just for altirra IMG_1814.MOV Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ricky Spanish Posted June 22, 2022 Share Posted June 22, 2022 1 hour ago, Stephen said: Yeah - LCDs are great until: Something scrolls horizontally Something scrolls vertically Anything on the image moves I think it looks very good Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
oo7 Posted June 22, 2022 Share Posted June 22, 2022 4 minutes ago, Ricky Spanish said: I think it looks very good My real hardware and emulation all look great. Maybe he is using sub par screens Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
+Stephen Posted June 22, 2022 Share Posted June 22, 2022 13 minutes ago, oo7 said: My real hardware and emulation all look great. Maybe he is using sub par screens My screens are not subpar. I have professional 600 line Sony PVM CRT. My "LCD" screens are 3 28" Samsung 4kUHD 16:9 screens. I am not using cheap / janky gear. The post was somewhat tounge-in-cheek, but I will take CRT over LCD for vintage gear any day of the week. I would never try to watch a 4k UHD Blu-Ray on an old 70s CRT. At the same time, I never watch VHS or Atari 2600 / 8-bit gear on 2020s LCD gear. I use the best of what was available and designed to be used with said gear. Find me something that has the buttery smooth scrolling (horizontal and vertical) - ala River Raid on PAL and NTSC that CRT offers, with NO motion blur, input lag, etc. It doesn't exist - if you want the original experience, CRT is it. Same as arcade emulation. There is NOTHING besides a colour vector screen that will properly play Tempest as it was meant to be seen. Some people are happy with what LCD offers in emulation. Same as some people think a 128kBit MP3 is "perfect" audio and FLAC offers nothing. 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
oo7 Posted June 22, 2022 Share Posted June 22, 2022 Just now, Stephen said: My screens are not subpar. I have professional 600 line Sony PVM CRT. My "LCD" screens are 3 28" Samsung 4kUHD 16:9 screens. I am not using cheap / janky gear. The post was somewhat tounge-in-cheek, but I will take CRT over LCD for vintage gear any day of the week. I would never try to watch a 4k UHD Blu-Ray on an old 70s CRT. At the same time, I never watch VHS or Atari 2600 / 8-bit gear on 2020s LCD gear. I use the best of what was available and designed to be used with said gear. Scrolling on a good lcd via an emulator is smooth as silk, scrolling via a 130xe over composite smooth as silk couldnt get smoother no ghosting etc.!you stated lcd looks crap as soon as any scrolling which led me to believe sub pad screens. i do love crt for the retro feel but love lcd and led once the right scaling and filtering if used correctly anyway to each their own but i just thank god we have the options to emulate and use modern devices. It lets our hobby live longer and be easy to access. i love it when we run to the cottage for the summer and i can boot up a8 in the sand by the fire for some old time fun. I also love being able to walk in the computer room and look at my 600xl on the crt. Both have their place with me. Both have benefits. 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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