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55five66six

Any reason to get/install a VBXE?

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12 hours ago, wildstar87 said:

"VGA cores are currently deprecated, and not actively developed. Limitations they had were too severe to justify their existence."

Yep: they were declared deprecated, 'hit and miss', etc, in 2013; this is perfectly reasonable, and is a reasonable explanation for them not being documented. However, if this situation changed in the meantime, it's news to me; otherwise I would have made a video demonstrating the VBXE VGA core years ago. I didn't, however, since it seemed a completely pointless exercise. :)

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12 hours ago, Mazzspeed said:

I therefore cannot see any reason for your condescending reply?

There is no such condescending reply.

 

STAY on topic, and please don't start with your tangential / point-less drivels: the only statement I made was about ARTIFACTING on a SOPHI-II setup (as a reply to post where it was mentioned).

 

And more than ever: keep your emotions out of the picture, please. It will help keep this discussion on-track.

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@wildstar87 correctly stated that artifacting does not work over the 'non-legacy' video output of either VBXE or Sophia 2. Both devices, meanwhile, allow artifacting to work over the legacy video output. I think he acknowledges this, but it's kind of a moot point if you want to use VGA/DVI/RGB anyway. How this presents an opportunity point out that Sophia 2 doesn't break artifacting over the legacy video signal (although it will if you remove the RF modulator on an XE, as is the case with VBXE) when the exact same thing is true of VBXE, is perhaps unclear.

 

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6 minutes ago, flashjazzcat said:

How this presents an opportunity point out that Sophia 2 doesn't break artifacting over the legacy video signal (although it will if you remove the RF modulator on an XE, as is the case with VBXE) when the exact same thing is true of VBXE, is perhaps unclear

A rational questions like that makes a lot more sense, instead of asking a pointless "Have you ever used VBXE? blah, blah..." (like if I ever made a statement about it).

 

With respect to SOPHIA-II (the only asset I mentioned), it was never designed to emulate artifacting on a digital-to-digital domain (which turns out perfectly possible, after seeing Applied Engineering's VGA daughter card in action on my Apple II/e Platinum). 

 

Therefore, in such circumstances (and considering that artifacting is an INTEGRAL and productive component of the A8 NTSC retro-experience), I simply attempted to stress out the importance of preserving the original video interfaces (untouched, if possible), and how SOPHIA-II helps achieve that easily.

 

Absolutely GREAT if VBXE helps preserving them as well !!

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18 hours ago, wildstar87 said:

U1MB being a solution, yes great, you have to buy another >$100 device just to get the palette to be changed "permanently" upon bootup (but thank you FJC for doing this!).

If the switch is indeed permanently (i.e. it flashes a new palette), couldn't you just put it in your U1MB machine, change the palette, and then put it back in your other machine?

 

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36 minutes ago, ivop said:

If the switch is indeed permanently (i.e. it flashes a new palette), couldn't you just put it in your U1MB machine, change the palette, and then put it back in your other machine?

It doesn't flash a new palette; if this were the method used, it would indeed obviously make a lot more sense to just use a stand-alone tool (like FC.COM) to flash the NTSC palette and then select it as the boot-up default. However, no such flashable palette has ever been provided (and plenty of reasons have been provided by the developers as to why such a thing is difficult or impossible), so my chosen method (with U1MB) was to 'soft-load' (from ROM) a palette at power-up, before the OS even starts.

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4 hours ago, Faicuai said:

There is no such condescending reply.

 

STAY on topic, and please don't start with your tangential / point-less drivels: the only statement I made was about ARTIFACTING on a SOPHI-II setup (as a reply to post where it was mentioned).

 

And more than ever: keep your emotions out of the picture, please. It will help keep this discussion on-track.

Artifacting (assuming you're into blurring colours together, to make more blurred colours due to the limitations of the NTSC composite connection) works under VBXE via the A8's legacy connections, which was the only point made with no emotion involved whatsoever.

 

All your posts are highlighting is the fact that the only one getting emotional here is yourself. Relax. Sophia 2 and VBXE are differing products with different end goals, I have no idea why Sophia 2 was even mentioned in this thread.

Edited by Mazzspeed

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56 minutes ago, Mazzspeed said:

Artifacting (assuming you're into blurring colours together, to make more blurred colours due to the limitations of the NTSC composite connection)

Could not be any more non-sensical...

 

Artifacting is a programatic color-generation exploit in NTSC analog domain. Just because you donn't really know it, or simply because it is exclusive of NTSC, does not mean (at all) we should discard it or ignore it:

 

C7AD54DE-BEEF-4FC8-9BBA-F9021AE6FAD4.thumb.jpeg.c2d39e6c85997db242c28b049075ba39.jpeg

 

C8C5CF86-966D-4E68-A8ED-66E198D5D10F.thumb.jpeg.e887c37e3cdd4e2397f774b75fa28bd9.jpeg

 

17E9DED3-91E6-4420-9DBC-CEC2EDE0E248.thumb.jpeg.308a1ffb79452479c2aa9cf202fbf04e.jpeg

 

0B01229E-3FCF-440A-B57B-0BB8150FD23B.thumb.jpeg.10e1e152beb4882db7b73fce17da7b2c.jpeg

 

2FD25839-AB79-4126-A387-27B9038EB2A5.thumb.jpeg.fc7447cf4f13b95849ae3745ce07d6c2.jpeg

 

Ironically, NTSC artifacting turns out to be 1000 times more vibrant and vivid than plenty of non-artifact, more "modern" computer systems out-there (from the time)... Even the venerable IBM/PC 51X0, with CGA is capable of producing OUTSTANDING results with it !!

 

Obviously NOT the ideal way of generating color (nor we are promoting de-evolving from today´s color standards), but a relatively simple and effective one, though...

 

 

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1 hour ago, Faicuai said:

Could not be any more non-sensical...

 

Artifacting is a programatic color-generation exploit in NTSC analog domain. Just because you donn't really know it, or simply because it is exclusive of NTSC, does not mean (at all) we should discard it or ignore it:

 

C7AD54DE-BEEF-4FC8-9BBA-F9021AE6FAD4.thumb.jpeg.c2d39e6c85997db242c28b049075ba39.jpeg

 

C8C5CF86-966D-4E68-A8ED-66E198D5D10F.thumb.jpeg.e887c37e3cdd4e2397f774b75fa28bd9.jpeg

 

17E9DED3-91E6-4420-9DBC-CEC2EDE0E248.thumb.jpeg.308a1ffb79452479c2aa9cf202fbf04e.jpeg

 

0B01229E-3FCF-440A-B57B-0BB8150FD23B.thumb.jpeg.10e1e152beb4882db7b73fce17da7b2c.jpeg

 

2FD25839-AB79-4126-A387-27B9038EB2A5.thumb.jpeg.fc7447cf4f13b95849ae3745ce07d6c2.jpeg

 

Ironically, NTSC artifacting turns out to be 1000 times more vibrant and vivid than plenty of non-artifact, more "modern" computer systems out-there (from the time)... Even the venerable IBM/PC 51X0, with CGA is capable of producing OUTSTANDING results with it !!

 

Obviously NOT the ideal way of generating color (nor we are promoting de-evolving from today´s color standards), but a relatively simple and effective one, though...

 

 

Let's keep discussion on topic. This is a thread about VBXE, and if an individual is interested in separate RGB out, than I can assure you they have very little interest in exploiting the inherent limitations of the NTSC composite connection.

Edited by Mazzspeed

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5 minutes ago, Mazzspeed said:

Let's keep discussion on topic.

It is on-topic.

 

Artifacting (or not) through modern video upgrades has been addressed already on this thread, further above.

 

It is your personal preferences, or fictitious "limitations" of NTSC, the ones that bear no relevance on this discussion. Just FYI.

 

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1 hour ago, Mazzspeed said:

Let's keep discussion on topic. This is a thread about VBXE, and if an individual is interested in separate RGB out, than I can assure you they have very little interest in exploiting the inherent limitations of the NTSC composite connection.

Uhh...hello, speak for yourself! I have the "off topic" Sophia 2 in one Atari 8-bit and I plan on getting a VBXE for reasons, among them, RGB output. But I do and will STILL use composite video out on both systems to play all the Atari games that use artifact colors and look like shit without them! Including the great-looking Tower Toppler (Nebulous) which on BOTH the Atari 8-bit and 7800 use artifacting colors and they look terrible without composite artifacts and you can easily see by EVERY video on the two games for the two systems that the people who did reviews and filmed on Youtube obviously used emulators without artifacting. especially including the Ultima games, and several others already mentioned in this thread like Orbit: ATTTM.

 

And I feel sorry for YOU that you grew up in PAL land and didn't get to experience all these games the way they were and are intended to be viewed. How about the "inherent" limitations of PAL Atari's with only 120 colors with Antic and 240 with the GTIA, or it's slow 50hz refresh that makes NTSC games far slower and just worse due to it?

 

I LOVE my PAL 800 with it's 240 over-scan line mode for Rastaconverter and playing all the European games I missed back in the day being an American, but I also love my NTSC computers with the faster NTSC frame rates, especially for shooters and 3D games (as long as they are made for NTSC) that run too slow on PAL systems and the high-res games with artifacting color! I can't live without either format these days, and NEITHER is better or worse, but I feel on equal terms for what they can and can't do! 

 

Come to think of it, Apple II games (at least from NTSC land) must almost all look horrible in PAL land since the stock Apple II series relies on color artifacts for any colors at all!

 

Edited by Gunstar
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1st 5 pics 8-bit and 2nd 5 pics 7800. Tower Toppler with and without NTSC artifacting:

 

 

 

8bitnoartifact2.gif

8bitnoartifact1.gif

8bitartifact1.png

8bitartifact2.jpg

8bitartifact3.jpg

7800artifact1.jpg

7800artifact2.jpg

7800noartifact1.png

7800noartifact2.png

7800noartifact3.png

 

I'll take the "blurry" colors of the composite NTSC artifacting over the alternative any day!

Edited by Gunstar
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The OP indeed never mentioned artifacting at all. The matter was brought up later on, and provided an excellent example of a specious argument being generated without any pre-existing disagreement. But urging participants to stay 'on topic' (assuming 'on topic' to mean focusing on directly addressing the OP's line of questioning regarding whether he should buy a VBXE) and then flooding the topic with screen dumps and discussion of Sophia 2 and artifacting seems a little disingenuous. It needs to be understood that artifacting is a property of analogue video (specifically composite video), a and that no existing RGB/VGA/DVI video solution provides or emulates it. Anyone wishing to avail themselves of digital or RGB video is therefore not doing so with a view to generating artifacting effects. It's worth noting, however, that VBXE provides a GTIA emulation core which emulates PAL 'colour blending'. I might add that VBXE has the advantage of being currently available, should the user be in a hurry.

Edited by flashjazzcat
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The person who started the post asked about any reason why he should get a VBXE, and since he is an American and probably has an NTSC computer, he may be very interested to know if he can no longer use composite video out with the upgrade, as am I, and that he may lose legacy video ability on the computer all together, not just through the video board(if only to Americans) of NTSC. And PAL color blending won't help. I believe it was answered that the  legacy video outs still work with the VBXE? I know they do with the Sophia 2, and if I was unable to use my legacy video outputs with the VBXE that most definitely would change my mind on installing one!

 

And if a person or persons involved in the thread, with little or no experience since they don't live in NTSC land, says it's inferior and no one would still want it, you damn well better bet that those of us who grew up with it and know it's capabilities over PAL are going to point it out and back it up with factual images!

Edited by Gunstar

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11 hours ago, flashjazzcat said:

The OP indeed never mentioned artifacting at all.

 

It was never needed to be explicitly mentioned by him because artifacting is an integral part of the NTSC retro-experience... and discussing whether such experience is (or not) part of modern video upgrades is an absolutely and totally relevant component of such discussion.

 

And no, artifacting emulation on a digital domain does not exist on A8, but it does on Apple, for imstance (I have not even posted those pictures yet). And the reason it does not exist on A8 is because:

 

  • it has been deliberately left out of most of these upgrqdes which were not born on the NTSC domain, and
  • because artifacting is wrongfully deemed as a "defect" when, in reality, is a freedom you have in NTSC, but inexistent (to this extent) in PAL. 

 

That is the real essence of it.

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11 minutes ago, Gunstar said:

The person who started the post asked about any reason why he should get a VBXE, and since he is an American and probably has an NTSC computer, he may be very interested to know if he can no longer use composite video out with the upgrade, as am I, and that he may lose legacy video ability on the computer all together, not just through the video board(if only to Americans) of NTSC. And PAL color blending won't help. I believe it was answered that the  legacy video outs still work with the VBXE? I know they do with the Sophia 2, and if I was unable to use my legacy video outputs with the VBXE that most definitely would change my mind on installing one!

 

Yes, but I think it has already been mentioned at least once, if not several times, that there is no loss of legacy function with either of the aforementioned video upgrades. If installed correctly, the computer still retains all normal RF and composite video function if one wishes to use them for titles requiring artifacting. So, there was never any need to tell the user that he or she may lose any legacy functions, because this just isn't true, in any way, shape, or form. I have no idea what the poster had in mind when they made the comment about "have you ever used a VBXE before?", but that very well may be what they had in mind, because by making the comment that you will, or may lose legacy functions, it sounds like someone that isn't very familiar with the device, at least to me. If the post that the quoted was referring to the Sophia 2 and not the VBXE, I think they can be forgiven for their assumption because, again, this thread is  supposed to be about the VBXE, not the Sophia 2, so I think it was an easy mistake to make.

 

For what it's worth, I'd love to see some sort of NTSC artifact emulation in both the VBXE and the Sophia/Sophia 2. As an NTSC user, that would be awesome and would truly leave me with no need to ever drop back to RF or composite.

 

Edited by bfollowell
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2 minutes ago, Gunstar said:

The person who started the post asked about any reason why he should get a VBXE, and since he is an American and probably has an NTSC computer, he may be very interested to know if he can no longer use composite video out with the upgrade, as am I, and that he may lose video benefits (if only to Americans) of NTSC and PAL color blending won't help. I believe it was answered that the  legacy video outs still work with the VBXE? I know they do with the Sophia 2, and if I was unable to use my legacy video outputs with the VBXE that most definitely would change my mind on installing one!

That and do I 100% need to have a monitor that supports 15Khz to be able to use this?

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2 minutes ago, 55five66six said:

That and do I 100% need to have a monitor that supports 15Khz to be able to use this?

 

Yes, that or have some sort of upscaler like an OSSC or other device.

 

Edited by bfollowell
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Just now, bfollowell said:

 

Yes, that or have some sort of upscaler like an OSSC or other device.

 

Ok. That definitely puts a nail in it for me. I'll stay with stock video. 🙂

 

My apologies that my question started such a firestorm. Didn't intend for that. 

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I use an RGB-to-VGA up-scaler with my Atari Jaguar and plan to use it with the VBXE when I get it too. I prefer a VGA up-scaler to HDMI because I can still benefit from CRT VGA screens and still use VGA inputs on most modern LCD/DLP TV's. The best of both worlds through RGB or composite/S-video. I have a VGA scaler for video/S-video too as the end result is better than built-in video up-scalers on the LCD/DLP TV's and projector I own, using the composite input.  And no S-video inputs on modern TV's too. And artifacting is still preserved, when I don't need it, I use S-video for the sharper picture and colors.

Edited by Gunstar

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8 minutes ago, 55five66six said:

My apologies that my question started such a firestorm. Didn't intend for that. 

You've done nothing wrong. The issue lies squarely with the individual emotionally raising moot points, thereby promoting off topic discussion, while telling others to stay on topic.

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19 minutes ago, 55five66six said:

Ok. That definitely puts a nail in it for me. I'll stay with stock video. 🙂

 

My apologies that my question started such a firestorm. Didn't intend for that. 

Well, how about that then...I think what you are looking for just may be the Sophia 2, which also gives new graphic modes, like the VBXE, VBXE just has a lot different/more abilities too(And more support so far). I forget how the new graphic modes of each compare.

 

Sophia 2 comes programmed for DVI (use HDMI adapter if needed) but can be reprogrammed for direct VGA or RGB, etc. too, by the user with tools/apps to do so, if you want to be able to use older VGA or RGB CRT monitors, and of course keep legacy outputs too. (To others: as does VBXE I KNOW-it was a hypothetical response if you had read my other post carefully!)

Edited by Gunstar

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14 minutes ago, Mazzspeed said:

You've done nothing wrong. The issue lies squarely with the individual emotionally raising moot points, thereby promoting off topic discussion, while telling others to stay on topic.

How does that always manage to happen?  If only we could manage to avoid such things.

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12 minutes ago, Gunstar said:

Well, how about that then...I think what you are looking for just may be the Sophia 2, which also gives new graphic modes, like the VBXE, VBXE just has a lot different/more abilities too(And more support so far). I forget how the new graphic modes of each compare.

The SOPHIA emulates 2 features of VBXE.  That being, 16 luminances in all modes, not just the GTIA modes.  Also, separate background and foreground colours in hi-res (text) modes.  It does not provide more colours or higher resolution, but IIRC, adjustable palettes is a feature.

 

Both are good devices, both have their uses.  I own both.  IMHO, Sophia lets you use an Atari on a modern monitor with clean output, but with 99% stock features.  VBXE is what I consider an actual video upgrade due to 160, 320 pixel modes in 256 colours, and 640 pixel mode in 16 colours.  Also, the blitter.  One only needs to use SDX on a properly configured machine to see the advantages that VBXE provides over the stock feature set.

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