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Any reason to get/install a VBXE?

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3 minutes ago, Stephen said:

How does that always manage to happen?  If only we could manage to avoid such things.

Not as long as people aren't robots and conversations are fluid and lead to other questions and ideas not necessarily the ones the conversation started with...;)

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6 minutes ago, Gunstar said:

Not as long as people aren't robots and conversations are fluid and lead to other questions and ideas not necessarily the ones the conversation started with...;)

110% not meant for you!

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23 minutes ago, Stephen said:

Both are good devices, both have their uses.  I own both.  IMHO, Sophia lets you use an Atari on a modern monitor with clean output, but with 99% stock features.  VBXE is what I consider an actual video upgrade due to 160, 320 pixel modes in 256 colours, and 640 pixel mode in 16 colours.  Also, the blitter.  One only needs to use SDX on a properly configured machine to see the advantages that VBXE provides over the stock feature set.

Sparta Commander set up correctly making good use of the available colour palette in 80 column mode looks simply amazing.

 

EDIT: Emulation under Altirra, but you get the idea. 80 columns is one thing, but 80 columns in colour is just lovely:

 

CrfdX9a.png

Edited by Mazzspeed
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11 minutes ago, Gunstar said:

Not as long as people aren't robots and conversations are fluid and lead to other questions and ideas not necessarily the ones the conversation started with...;)

 

You got that right! Look at the way the 400 membrane keyboard thread got completely and, in my opinion, rudely, hijacked onto a completely unrelated discussion. It was quite ridiculous in my humble opinion, but then, here I am going off-topic, so I'll get back to work now.

 

Edited by bfollowell
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32 minutes ago, Mazzspeed said:

Sparta Commander set up correctly making good use of the available colour palette in 80 column mode looks simply amazing.

 

EDIT: Emulation under Altirra, but you get the idea. 80 columns is one thing, but 80 columns in colour is just lovely:

 

CrfdX9a.png

It looks that good via RGB into my Sony 20" PVM.  Talk about a pure high bandwidth video rendering path.  No thousand dollar video pre-processor, no digital signal going into an LCD screen.  You know - none of that stuff a pure stock machine did back in 1979.

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26 minutes ago, Stephen said:

It looks that good via RGB into my Sony 20" PVM.  Talk about a pure high bandwidth video rendering path.  No thousand dollar video pre-processor, no digital signal going into an LCD screen.  You know - none of that stuff a pure stock machine did back in 1979.

You can't beat CRT when it comes to retro gear, even colour composite should look better on CRT.

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1 hour ago, Gunstar said:

Not as long as people aren't robots and conversations are fluid and lead to other questions and ideas not necessarily the ones the conversation started with...;)

Dead-on!

 

That's what really counts!

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7 hours ago, Stephen said:

110% not meant for you!

I know! I was just being glib to what I took for sarcasm from you. But I stand by what I said, glib or not, regardless.:ahoy:

Edited by Gunstar

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1 hour ago, Gunstar said:

I know! I was just being glib to what I took for sarcasm from you. But I stand by what I said, glib or not, regardless.:ahoy:

In the real world discussion isn't contained in threads, it's human nature for discussion to evolve as it progresses, it's also quite normal for people to have differing perspectives. Most here get this concept and totally agree with you; the problem is a select few believe their point of view is the yard stick, if discussion deviates too far from their purist perspective or it's highlighted that they're misinformed, they get nasty, unjustly state others are getting too emotional, and the whole thread degrades into steaming waste. Dinadan67 made a perfectly rational post and was unjustly attacked for it.

 

Therefore, it's best to do our best to keep things on topic. This thread doesn't mention colour composite in the OP, it's a moot point anyway as such outputs still function normally with either Sophia 2 or VBXE in place, so lets do whatever we can to avoid the Atari 400 keyboard thread?

 

 

Edited by Mazzspeed
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NTSC artifacting is a non-event regardless of video type for us PAL people.

But we lose PAL artifacting with both VBXE and Sophia, ie the scanline colour blending.  Which in fact IMO is a more useful thing than the NTSC type.

 

But small tradeoff in the long run given the vastly superior video quality and other things that each brings along.

 

If you have to think very much about whether to get either of these upgrades, then you probably don't need them.  I have both, got in early in each case.  In real terms, VBXE today is probably a third the price I paid for it.

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30 minutes ago, Rybags said:

But we lose PAL artifacting with both VBXE and Sophia, ie the scanline colour blending.

Only, with VBXE, you don't really 'lose' it, since you can use the GTIA emulation core to get scanline colour blending over RGB. :)

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3 hours ago, Mazzspeed said:

In the real world discussion isn't contained in threads, it's human nature for discussion to evolve as it progresses, it's also quite normal for people to have differing perspectives. Most here get this concept and totally agree with you; the problem is a select few believe their point of view is the yard stick, if discussion deviates too far from their purist perspective or it's highlighted that they're misinformed, they get nasty, unjustly state others are getting too emotional, and the whole thread degrades into steaming waste. Dinadan67 made a perfectly rational post and was unjustly attacked for it.

 

Therefore, it's best to do our best to keep things on topic. This thread doesn't mention colour composite in the OP, it's a moot point anyway as such outputs still function normally with either Sophia 2 or VBXE in place, so lets do whatever we can to avoid the Atari 400 keyboard thread?

 

 

I haven't read the 400 keyboard thread, I have no idea what went on there, as since I don't own a 400 and so don't care about or have anyway of helping in such a discussion. And now that I've read in this thread it's some type of disaster area, I'm even less inclined  to read it. But I get what you mean. I don't mind threads deviating as long as it's mostly constructive in some way, regardless of how the thread started. I do agree that it shouldn't lead to nasty posts and over emotionalism, flame wars, etc. But that's not deviating from a thread's intention in my mind, that is just destroying a thread.

 

But I also have no idea what you mean in your very first sentence in this reply, that I have bolded. To me, it's the real world and a real discussion if people get together and discuss things in person or in writing/text, being online doesn't make it "not real" or not part of the real world to me, so that first  sentence is completely nonsensical to me.

 

As far as this thread is concerned, from @55five66six reply(s) to my post(s), he didn't mind the deviations and seemed glad for the extra info, sort of questions he wanted  the answers too, but didn't know to ask. It's good that the VBXE works with legacy outputs still, I always assumed this, but wondered myself after other's mentioned it. Then my bit about artifacting and legacy outputs was in normal response to other's bringing it up in the discussion, and it doesn't matter how important you think it is or not, it is obviously important to me and others,  including 55five66six judging by his response to my post(s). And finally, while this thread deviated from the original intent, it all involved video output, graphics and Atari computers so was all perfectly acceptable as far as I'm concerned.

 

The bit that isn't acceptable is people jumping in and saying it's not important or relevant causing others and myself to naturally respond contradictorily to those saying such. Now it's gotten out of hand only by responses like yours that I am responding too, as well as my response(s) to responses. NOW it's deviated far  too much as we are discussing what belongs in threads or not and how some think they should go, which in itself has caused far more damage and derailment to this thread than NTSC artifacting and legacy video outs ever could have or did. 

Edited by Gunstar

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3 hours ago, Gunstar said:

I haven't read the 400 keyboard thread, I have no idea what went on there

Feel free to drop in there... it is alive and well (with plenty of bright people actively involved !)

 

You can safely ignore the fictitious depictions regarding its evolution.

 

Enjoy!

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2 hours ago, Faicuai said:

Feel free to drop in there... it is alive and well (with plenty of bright people actively involved !)

 

You can safely ignore the fictitious depictions regarding its evolution.

 

Enjoy!

 

There's absolutely nothing fictitious about it. It started off as a thread about the Atari 400 keyboard and quickly devolved into page after page of people arguing about various versions of the BASIC programming language that had absolutely nothing whatsoever to do with the original thread in any way, shape or form. Someone there definitely needed to pipe in with some well placed stay on topic comments.

 

But now I'm replying to your ridiculous reply and we're off-topic again, so I'm as guilty as anyone else.

 

Edited by bfollowell

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6 hours ago, Gunstar said:

But I also have no idea what you mean in your very first sentence in this reply, that I have bolded.

Face to face discussion isn't containerized in threads strictly based on one topic and one topic only, discussion evolves around a central topic, often deviating from the original topic entirely - This is human nature. Due to the internet we seem to be loosing our ability to converse.

Edited by Mazzspeed
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21 minutes ago, bfollowell said:

It started off as a thread about the Atari 400 keyboard and quickly devolved into page after page of people arguing about various versions of the BASIC programming language

 

Well, after all it turns out that a LOT of folks that got the 400 ended up typing tons of Basic programs on it... so no surprise the theme resurfaces in that context (and with a vengeance, because typing on it was not exactly the easiest or fastest...)

 

So far, the thread seems doing pretty well and alive (whether you like or not, though).

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7 minutes ago, Faicuai said:

 

Well, after all it turns out that a LOT of folks that got the 400 ended up typing tons of Basic programs on it... so no surprise the theme resurfaces in that context (and with a vengeance, because typing on it was not exactly the easiest or fastest...)

 

So far, the thread seems doing pretty well and alive (whether you like or not, though).

 

Yes, I'll definitely grant you that. There's no way a discussion of the Atari 400 keyboard could be had without someone bringing up the long hours of typing in some BASIC program on it, which leads to a discussion of how it was easier with this BASIC or that one, and so on. Also, you guys are right, normal human discussions change and evolve as the conversation goes on, and that's normal. I was just surprised at how quickly and how greatly that thread got away from the original topic, at least for a while. I guess as long as computers in general, and Ataris specifically, are being discussed, there's only so far off-topic we can get.

 

For what it's worth, it does look like the thread has come full circle and 400 keyboards are actually being discussed again.

 

So, more on topic, since I've veered off. For those of you that have multiple video options, like I do in my 1088XEL, which do you find yourself falling back to and using the most and why?

 

Edited by bfollowell

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21 minutes ago, bfollowell said:

So, more on topic, since I've veered off. For those of you that have multiple video options, like I do in my 1088XEL, which do you find yourself falling back to and using the most and why?

I use Sophia 2 and it does everything I need, I don't use any other output other than DVI unless I accidentally select a graphics mode my monitor doesn't support via DVI, in which case I use svideo as a fallback to re select the correct mode via DVI. Personally I'd rather play a game in monochrome than rely on artifacting, I used to play games on green and amber phosphor monitors in the day and still enjoyed them thoroughly.

 

I was close to dropping the money on a VBXE, but 15Khz RGB was a deal breaker, even in PAL land. I know you can use a scaler, but that's more expense.

Edited by Mazzspeed

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54 minutes ago, bfollowell said:

So, more on topic, since I've veered off. For those of you that have multiple video options, like I do in my 1088XEL, which do you find yourself falling back to and using the most and why?

My daily driver for years now has been my 1088XLD with VBXE (it's configured as a PAL unit).  I run it via RGB into a 20" Sony PVM (600 line resolution with P-22 phosphor).  I just don't like running these old machines on an LCD device.  Also, I have my Jaguar, Playstation, Dreamcast, modded XBox (1st gen), and VCR all hooked to the same display.  The other reason for preferring the VBXE is not only do I have proper 80 column text, but in colour.  Once I used SDX and LastWord that way, there was simply no going back.

 

My workbench has a 1084S and dual 17" 4:3 Samsung panels.  My 1088XEL (also configured as a PAL machine) runs Sophia so I use the LCD with it, and the 1084S for all my other machines or test projects.

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2 hours ago, Mazzspeed said:

Face to face discussion isn't containerized in threads strictly based on one topic and one topic only, discussion evolves around a central topic, often deviating from the original topic entirely - This is human nature. Due to the internet we seem to be loosing our ability to converse.

Ok, I'm on the same page now, and that's basically what I meant about conversations here, in written form are just as "real world" to me as a face-to-face conversation because I treat these posts like I do face-to-face, or over the phone, and feel it is perfectly fine for threads to do the same, evolve around a central topic, but it can deviate. That's also the same thing I meant by my reply to @Stephen about people not being robots and conversations are fluid. It is a bit harder to converse in  written form like this because you don't see peoples expressions, hear tone of voice, and recognize the their mood, so often we do misunderstand one another. Just like my post you replied to here that I am quoting.

 

person I probably would have understood you and agreed and we would have moved on in the conversation. That can take extra time and extra explanation here, and sometimes we never quite understand as we might in person. But I still treat it the same still as a person to person conversation and every bit as real. Maybe some are losing the ability to converse, as you say, but personally I just think it is a bit harder, more for some than others. 

 

I don't mind fluid threads and different subjects entering as long as they are vaguely related, as long as the person who started the topic get's their answers, which @55five66six seems too. The reality is that in many threads there are several different conversations going on between different people within the thread just like ours here. While the initial topic and topics evolved from it carry on by others at the same time, and are in those too. I say if you want to stay on topic, due so, others are too, and even those who have drifted in the thread still reply to topic related stuff. 

 

The bottom line in this thread is that 55five66six got the answers he was looking for, and more information he didn't know he wanted until it was mentioned. No harm, no foul. Did the person wanting to know about the 400 keyboard get the answers he wanted? If so, then no harm, no foul if others continue different conversations in the same thread as it evolves I say. And if it were my topic, I don't care if it strays, and I'll probably join in, as long as I get the answers I was looking for when I started.

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1 hour ago, Gunstar said:

Ok, I'm on the same page now, and that's basically what I meant about conversations here, in written form are just as "real world" to me as a face-to-face conversation because I treat these posts like I do face-to-face, or over the phone, and feel it is perfectly fine for threads to do the same, evolve around a central topic, but it can deviate. That's also the same thing I meant by my reply to @Stephen about people not being robots and conversations are fluid. It is a bit harder to converse in  written form like this because you don't see peoples expressions, hear tone of voice, and recognize the their mood, so often we do misunderstand one another. Just like my post you replied to here that I am quoting.

 

person I probably would have understood you and agreed and we would have moved on in the conversation. That can take extra time and extra explanation here, and sometimes we never quite understand as we might in person. But I still treat it the same still as a person to person conversation and every bit as real. Maybe some are losing the ability to converse, as you say, but personally I just think it is a bit harder, more for some than others. 

 

I don't mind fluid threads and different subjects entering as long as they are vaguely related, as long as the person who started the topic get's their answers, which @55five66six seems too. The reality is that in many threads there are several different conversations going on between different people within the thread just like ours here. While the initial topic and topics evolved from it carry on by others at the same time, and are in those too. I say if you want to stay on topic, due so, others are too, and even those who have drifted in the thread still reply to topic related stuff. 

 

The bottom line in this thread is that 55five66six got the answers he was looking for, and more information he didn't know he wanted until it was mentioned. No harm, no foul. Did the person wanting to know about the 400 keyboard get the answers he wanted? If so, then no harm, no foul if others continue different conversations in the same thread as it evolves I say. And if it were my topic, I don't care if it strays, and I'll probably join in, as long as I get the answers I was looking for when I started.

Problem's arise when certain individuals force their own opinion as the new yardstick discussion is free to evolve around that has absolutely nothing to do with the OP, completely shifting the goalposts: Point in case is the Atari 400 keyboard thread - Pages and pages of someone trying to justify the speeds of various basic implementations, specifically targeting another popular make of retro machine, like some pointless crusade.

 

Discussion wanders, that's a given; but forcing an agenda shouldn't be tolerated. In that Atari 400 keyboard thread, discussing the ease of Basic program entry as a result of membrane vs chiclet vs a keyboard with actual keys is one thing - But to push an agenda discussing the speeds of such Basic implementations across platforms is taking things to the extreme. As you stated, conversation has to be vaguely related to the OP, and attacking others due to some misguided belief telling them they're acting too 'emotional' is unacceptable.

 

Retaining legacy connections is a moot point, so lets discuss VBXE using the OP as the yardstick for discussion and try to stop taking things so personally. If there's nothing left to discuss, then let the thread expire and move onto the next. Essentially: There's no need to attack others over the fact they simply pointed out you're misguided (talking in general, not specifically aimed at yourself).

Edited by Mazzspeed
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enough already, the horse is beaten, the glue is made... it's the song that never ends, yes, it goes on and on my friends... some people started singing is not knowing what it was... and they'll continue singing it forever just because...

 

there are plenty of reasons to install any number of video upgrades including the VBXE.

 

My wish would be for all the bloviating about the off topic bloviating and the follow up bloviating about the bloviating be moved to it's of thread.

 

VBXE can do a number of things and is quite capable but is not user friendly... core selection and knowledge about them is a difficulty... sophia also has some issues but is slightly more friendly in how and what a person needs to do in handling and or dealing with such issues. UAV and Myteks refined Ultra Video style mods are great as well and require very little from the end user in their function/operation.

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It sounds to me like all this issue with threads morphing is really something that is the purview of moderators and administrators. But not to start singling people out or posting warnings or whatever, but like is done in other forums I'm a member of, where the moderator or administrator will simply extract the parts of the thread that went way off topic for too long and move them to a thread of their own, simply leaving a link in the first thread. That seems a lot easier than people getting upset or jumping on other backs or the mods/admin having to police it all. In one forum I'm a member of, it even has a sub-forum that arguments and flame wars between individuals are moved to so they can continue their mayhem in their own thread in a sub-forum reserved for it. Flame on! The irony is that there have never been any real arguments or flame wars among the couple dozen active members. There is one thread in the flame-war sub-forum, that I started, entitled 'Wanna fight about it?' Nobody has, as of yet, taken me up on the challenge.:evil:

 

But as far as the 400 thread turning into some argument about what Basic is the best, I thought everyone already knew that the Atari has all the best implementations, besides Atari Basic that is. Especially in this century with Altirra BASIC and FastBASIC, etc. Fans of other micro's fear Atari's with great third-party BASIC's, from the 80's implementations to today's. that's why they always compare to the default Atari Basic.;):lol:

Edited by Gunstar
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2 hours ago, Gunstar said:

55five66six got the answers he was looking for, and more information he didn't know he wanted until it was mentioned. No harm, no foul.

EXACTLY !! 


End of the story!

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What's needed is a really good terminal package for the A8 leveraging the colour hardware 80 column mode of VBXE in both ANSI and ATASCII. An IRC client would be another great package in colour 80 columns.

Edited by Mazzspeed

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