The Atari VCS Controversies Thread

[leech]

11 minutes ago, Draxxon said:

In my opinion, the clear reason that this system was to exist, was to sell it to the longtime fans that have been wishing for a new console to buy/collect for many years now. The ones that go out of their way to buy Jaguars for $500 bucks, or all 11 or 12 Flashbacks. lmmfao.

If they can nickel and dime you to death by selling you your old 7800 games all over again for $3 dollars a pop, then that's cool too. It takes zero effort.

Any new games that cost money to make need to go on Steam as well, so you know, lots of users can see and buy them. So you won't get exclusives, so, that isn't the reason either.

Money Grab. That's obviously the clear reason @Bill Loguidice, but they can't say that. I think that's why all the attacks on its NOT REAL ATARI!!!! Because that is exactly its purpose and what it has going for it. That's why the extra attention to the case. You mess around with it for a year, or two or three if your lucky, and then it goes into storage or on a shelf next to a Jaguar, IDK man. It's a "modern, playable shelf piece", if it needs a label, lol.

Let's be fair here... $3 for games you potentially don't already have (as the 7800 wasn't exactly a huge success, there were 69 titles officially released for the system.  Not sure how many of those are owned by Atari that can be re-released on the VCS, but even if all of them eventually are, that's 207 dollars for the entire library on the VCS.  Even if every single person who (estimated at ~20k maybe?) bought the entire library, that's what... 4,140,000.  That is a pretty easy, decently sized paycheck!  But for the people buying the game... 3 bucks is the price of a soda at most restaurants... Which is ice, water, some carbonation and crappy syrup. 

[Draxxon]

well if they were sending me carts in the mail, sure. But these are ROMs.

I do see your point tho. Im not saying its a bad business model, and its activity in the store after launch, so that great. Not saying I wont buy some, I was merely trying to put myself in there shoes. Clearly they said we can sell the old games one by one (nickel and dime). Its how it is these days. Its fine.

why not a dollar a game, why not sell the entire library in a single, why not free with an overpriced system?

I know why, because they thought people might not get them at 4 dollars. thats why.

Edited November 8, 2021 by Draxxon

[leech]

2 minutes ago, Draxxon said:

well if they were sending me carts in the mail, sure. But these are ROMs.

Companies have every right to sell ROMs.  Look at Nintendo Online, they're doing the same thing.  I still find it odd that the 'expansion pack' includes Sega Genesis games, and on top of that, it's the same games (though less of) that are in the Genesis Collection that is sold everywhere (Including the Switch, Steam, Playstation, etc).  I already have that on cart for the Switch, so don't see a reason to pay for the Nintendo Online expansion pack.  Not to mention I haven't played my Switch in months...

[Nall3k]

20 minutes ago, Draxxon said:

In my opinion, the clear reason that this system was to exist, was to sell it to the longtime fans that have been wishing for a new console to buy/collect for many years now. The ones that go out of their way to buy Jaguars for $500 bucks, or all 11 or 12 Flashbacks. lmmfao.

If they can nickel and dime you to death by selling you your old 7800 games all over again for $3 dollars a pop, then that's cool too. It takes zero effort.

Any new games that cost money to make need to go on Steam as well, so you know, lots of users can see and buy them. Which means its purpose is not to sell you exclusives, so, that isn't the reason either.

Money Grab. That's obviously the clear reason @Bill Loguidice, but they can't say that. I think that's why all the attacks on its NOT REAL ATARI!!!! Because that is exactly its purpose and what it has going for it. That's why the extra attention to the case. You mess around with it for a year, or two or three if your lucky, and then it goes into storage or on a shelf next to a Jaguar, IDK man. It's a "modern, playable shelf piece", if it needs a label, lol.

This is all coming from my collector side. Again, who it was aimed for and its purpose, I think. As a gamer, IDK, get the new controllers and use them on steam if that's possible, you don't need the VCS at all. Save some money and still get to experience the games and controllers, right? And I think this is the actual breaking point of all the drama. Collectors who have been waiting for a new console to collect will love it, gamers who want to actually, you know, play the games, won't need it, or see any value in it whatsoever. I can see both sides, I wonder why others can't.

Not every Atari fan owns every Atari system. I use to have a 7800 and it was fun, but I don't own one anymore, along with Jaguar or 2600. Compare buying a 7800 with the games compared to the VCS and its games that can be played on modern televisions without modding. It's hard for me to see it as a cash grab because it's only sold like 15,000 units? That's a generous guess too.

[Draxxon]

Leech, and i am fine with that, my point is, its going to be hard to sell people roms for atari games when they are small file sizes, easily found and freely available online, and not overly protected like the big N's roms.

Nall3K, hey these are my half informed, but honest, opinions. You dont have to agree. 

Cash grab is harsh. because they are supporting it, a cash grab they would be gone like squid token sellers lolol. It was marketed towards collectors, im quite sure. I dont know what owning ALL of the Atari systems matters. What does that even mean? Im sure no one owns all of them. 

If your saying buy the VCS so you can play 7800 games with hdmi, i mean, anything can do that. Now legally owning the roms... if you are into that sort of thing, more power to you. The VCS has that going for it. Im old, lolol. Its the same 7800 roms i play on my AFB9/X or Pi3. (Doesnt the Blaze Retro handheld also play 7800, I still need to get one of those.)

Also just because they only sold 15,000 units doesnt mean it wasnt a cash grab, btw. But, there is no way I know their intentions. Just guesses. (just put yourself in their shoes and think how to make money, thats the trick.)

Edited November 8, 2021 by Draxxon

[Nall3k]

20 minutes ago, Draxxon said:

Leech, and i am fine with that, my point is, its going to be hard to sell people roms for atari games when they are freely available online. Legal or not.

Nall3K, hey these are my half informed, but honest, opinions. You dont have to agree. 

Cash grab is harsh. because they are supporting it, a cash grab they would be gone like squid token sellers lolol. It was marketed towards collectors, im quite sure. I dont know what owning ALL of the Atari systems matters. What does that even mean? Im sure no one owns all of them. 

If your saying buy the VCS so you can play 7800 games with hdmi, i mean, anything can do that. Now legally owning the roms... if you are into that sort of thing, more power to you. The VCS has that going for it. Im old, lolol. Its the same 7800 roms i play on my AFB9/X or Pi3.

Also just because they only sold 15,000 units doesnt mean it wasnt a cash grab, btw. But, there is no way I know their intentions. Just guesses. (just put yourself in their shoes and think how to make money, thats the trick.)

I guess I wasn't too clear with my initial post. I don't personally own a VCS, because it doesn't do anything that I already have that does. I'm watching to see if that changes.

My comment about owning Atari systems and the 7800 was simply that if a person doesn't own those games and wants to try them out, a VCS might be a more lucrative option than collecting older hardware for eBay prices. That's all.

 

It will be interesting to see if its still a thing a year from now. Again, my initial post wasn't mean to be harsh on you, just trying to offer a neutral perspective.

[Draxxon]

now i understand mostly. Im saying if you want to try ALL the 7800 roms on a modern atari with hdmi, instead of the VCS, the Atari Rasberry Pi 3 or the Atari Flahback 9/X/Legends Flashback will also do it. The Legends Flashback is $40. VCS is $300 and you still have to buy the controllers and games. That's a HUUUGE price gap to just try some 7800 roms. you don't need the VCS for that. An old ass PC an emulator worked for years, You can probably play the shit on your phone.

Now, if you want a real 7800 with an av mod, and an HDMI adapter, with a muticart with sd card, I fucking fully get it. Thats a whole different thing. I don't know much about FPGA stuff, but maybe that.

Edited November 8, 2021 by Draxxon

[leech]

1 minute ago, Draxxon said:

now i understand mostly, Im saying if you want to try ALL the 7800 roms on a modern atari with hdmi instead of the VCS the Atari Rasberry Pi 3 or the Atari Flahback 9/X/Legends Flashback will also do it. The Legends Flashback is $40. VCS is $300 and you still have to buy the controllers and games. That's a HUUUGE price gap to just try some 7800 roms. you don't need the VCS for that. An old ass PC an emulator worked for years, You can probably play the shit on your phone.

Now, if you want a real 7800 with an av mod, and an HDMI adapter, with a muticart with sd card, I fucking fully get it. Thats a whole different thing. I don't know much about FPGA stuff, but maybe that.

Ha, I did finally get my (now 3rd) 7800 with S-Video and Composite mods (using UAV).  Also have the Dragoncart and Concerto.  Now am waiting for the Super Combo Stick(s) I ordered from AtariAge's store.  So while I don't need to buy the ROMs on the VCS, Dark Chambers still looks nicer over HDMI than it does on my tiny (relatively) and fuzzy screen I have the 7800 hooked up to.  Waiting for my S-Video to RCA connector so I can use the 7800 on my 1084-S for lightgun games.

[Draxxon]

I know my harsh ass comes off as arguing, but I agree a lot with you guys. I don't buy a bunch of digital stuff, but I have been known to buy digital versions of things I really like that I already own a physical copy of, I totally get it.

Wanting to play things in HDMI, getting light guns (and all kinds of other hard to set up retro games going), buying shit I don't need. Hating on shit for no real reason. I do it all too.

[leech]

7 minutes ago, Draxxon said:

getting light guns (and all kinds of other hard to set up retro games going), buying shit I don't need.

Ha, speaking of... got the Sinden light gun... could not get it to work on my TV.  Pretty sure it was an issue with brightness.  TV is a 3D one, and they are notoriously bad about such things.  So upgraded to a 77" Oled (old tv was 55").  Have I tried the light gun on it since?  Of course not... that would be a fun one to add support onto the VCS for though.  Then get Area 51 / Maximum Force on there...

[Draxxon]

Oh man, gun violence makes it all bad for business, but, light gun games are so much fun. Its is such a pick up and play genre that pretty much anyone can play.

AtGames needs to come on with their bitblaster guns already, lololol. My Legends Core is ready.

Edited November 8, 2021 by Draxxon

[Draxxon]

Thinking on it some more, what kind of direction should it have had that would have helped? I mean the options are PC, Game Console or Set Top Box? Correct?

It's all 3. Its clearly a PC and configurable and upgradeable. Its clearly a game console because of the Atari Branding with an online store for games. Set Top Box, I mean I hear you can stream a lot of different shit from it.

I didnt follow any of the drama too much, but Im pretty sure this was always the idea. At this point they could "Change Direction" and focus on whatever aspect takes off, if any. What doesnt make sense is you dont need the VCS to do any of those things.

 

And I can admit when Im wrong, too. I called the system DOA in these threads a lot in the past. It's not. As long as games come out for it, and they support it, its alive. Even if sales are abysmal. While some of us where right in that it will never sell lots and lots of systems, be in every home, replace your PC, PS5 and Firestick/Roku, it does have new games. Atari Vault, Recharged series, and 7800 rereleases are something. They could just be pumping out old 2600 roms. So, if you are an Atari fan, wanted to buy the new Atari and play some new and old Atari games on it, you can.

And like every other system in history, if you can make a killer app, exclusive-must play game, people will buy the fucking system. (Hey, Atari.... You should have kept Primal Rage... You fucked up big time there. You could have finally released PR2 on the VCS and sold a new PR3 game, like how Killer Instinct 3 and season updates sold XBOXes. I witnessed people travel from all over the world and line up for blocks to play the PR2 game at the Galloping Ghost Arcade in Chicago when the board was finally made public. Where is Gauntlet Dark Legacy or a new version with online multiplayer on the VCS? You need that kind of shit to even dream of competing with the big console companies, and even then Atari would have an impossible task.) vaulted, re-released and recharged games can only take them so far. Im pretty sure they dont even have a studio that is capable of making a fully modern AAA game.

If atari cared, and was smart, while 7800 is nice, like everyone says, that well is shallow. Not a lot of potential games to release digitally. Now, the Atari Arcade games, there are a good amount. They should probably sell the old games in bundles by system. sell arcade titles and move away from the very very old shit. You can totally have all the old stuff on it, i think those games are cool, but not everyone does. Showcase the 90s arcade atari games, if they can. That's where the nostalgia train is at right now.

Edited November 8, 2021 by Draxxon

[leech]

Would be awesome if the gauntlet series was owned by them again.  Though I think they could get away with making new srquels to Dark Chambers, it doesn't have the name recognition that Gauntlet does.

 

Others (myself included) think there should have been more Primal Rage.  JagCD version still wins as the best home port.

 

Imagine a 2021 Primal Rage done with the claymation style of the original, but updated with tons of more characters, and more vicious fatalities, like new Mortal Kombat games!  Problem always comes down to money.  Also at that point they would need to either stream it, or sell it with an external hard drive / flash stick.

[Bill Loguidice]

7 minutes ago, leech said:

Others (myself included) think there should have been more Primal Rage.  JagCD version still wins as the best home port.

 

Serious question. How do you figure that was the best home port?

[Draxxon]

Ive played PR2 quite a bit. It was almost finished. It doesnt crash when playing, its just missing fatality animations and little stuff.
Steve/Stephanie Brownback figured out a whole lot of shit on that game.

imagine playing PR1 PR2 arcade ports and a new PR3 on the VCS? Bonkers. It's a sad alternate reality we must live in.

[Draxxon]

12 minutes ago, Bill Loguidice said:

Serious question. How do you figure that was the best home port?

this is the "best playable version" I'm pretty sure they have PR1 running as well.
Urth Rage | MAME4Rage2 (neocities.org) 

 

I never played the Jag version, never even saw a jaguar CD player in person, but no home port was ever really worth a shit except saturn that I knew of.

Edited November 8, 2021 by Draxxon

[Matt_B]

29 minutes ago, Draxxon said:

Thinking on it some more, what kind of direction should it have had that would have helped? I mean the options are PC, Game Console or Set Top Box? Correct?

There's also a fourth direction and that's not making the thing at all.

 

Sure, a few collectors miss out on a machine that they'll bend over backwards trying to justify for a year or so before quietly filing away when the next big thing comes out, but we're spared a three year farce of them attempting to cover up a car crash of a development process and they avoid a $9 million development bill that almost certainly won't ever get paid back.

 

That's not to say that they couldn't have licensed the brand out to someone else who knew what they were doing and got them to make a PC. They might even have been able to deliver something on time and for the original price, and with less of the irritating quirks like the tortuous process of getting it to boot your own OS from the internal SSD. Either they'd be onto the Mk 2 by now if they'd turned a profit, or it'd have just been quietly forgotten outside of a handful of hackers and collectors.

[Draxxon]

yeah, man. Im past all that. Someone that doesnt want it can forget about it easily, they arent missing anything. Someone that backed it and waited on the shit show, that must suck, but, thats kind of the risk of backing something unproven, right? I waited until it came out and has been out awhile. That's just me.

not making it at all, might be a great idea, but not much of a direction, really.

That last bit you said makes a lot of sense to me. It could have been better, no doubt. But what can I do about that? Not buy it and ignore it. Which is what I did for awhile. But, recently for whatever reasons, maybe I know tax time is coming soon, Ive been thinking about it. Its out, its not hard to find, and the price didnt go skyhigh. So, I consider that a possible buy for a thing I really dont need. I skipped the drama.

It doesnt always work out, i have all the mini systems, except the TG16 mini. Covid just happened and it wasnt essential. So I figured I would wait. The price went sky high.

Edited November 8, 2021 by Draxxon

[leech]

1 hour ago, Bill Loguidice said:

Serious question. How do you figure that was the best home port?

What other ports were there?  The only downside of the JagCD one was load times.  The 32x one plays rather chunky.  I don't think I've actually tried the Playstation one, but the Saturn one didn't seem quite as fluid.  The rest were very, meh.  What is your opinion on the best home port (granted these days it's easy to play the Arcade version.)

[leech]

1 hour ago, Draxxon said:

this is the "best playable version" I'm pretty sure they have PR1 running as well.
Urth Rage | MAME4Rage2 (neocities.org) 

 

I never played the Jag version, never even saw a jaguar CD player in person, but no home port was ever really worth a shit except saturn that I knew of.

JagCD version is very close to the Arcade.  I have a Saturn too, I should do a comparison video.

[Draxxon]

Its not that easy to play the arcade version on mame. There was some trickery to thwart bootleggers, and characters land in mid air and its all jacked up. Im pretty sure that the Urth Rage emulator got it working a lot better, but i dont think its still exactly right. Saturn version was a little choppy I agree, still, it was better than the PSX version in my opinion. again, I never played the JagCD, it could very well be the best version, it wouldn't surprise me. There was also the PS2 (and other systems) version for Midway Arcade Treasures 2, I think, I remeber it having issues as well? Cant remember what, the blood effects were jacked up maybe?

Its one of those games, like Mortal Kombat 4, that you have to have the real arcade board. good luck with PR2, there is what, 2 proto boards. Have to go to chicago to play that one.

 

 

 

Did Doc just say "customated"?

Edited November 9, 2021 by Draxxon

[Bill Loguidice]

1 hour ago, leech said:

JagCD version is very close to the Arcade.  I have a Saturn too, I should do a comparison video.

It's my understanding that even though no port is particularly faithful (beyond the PC version, which is closest) the PS1, Saturn, and 3DO versions are all better than the Jaguar version, which suffers from tiny sprites and other issues. I guess overall, though, with all of the ports, it's a matter of what omissions and concessions bother you the least versus the original.

[Draxxon]

No way this is the best version. WTF sound is that? Characters look small. No shadows on the characters? I'm sticking with Saturn or MAT2 collection.
 

 

Edited November 9, 2021 by Draxxon

[Shaggy the Atarian]

6 hours ago, Draxxon said:

Someone swindled Curt Vendel? That sucks. Well then he should have got a lawyer and went to court. Or he trusted the wrong people, IDK anything about it at all. And, I understand that he can no longer be with us.  No offense, IDK WTF any of that has to do with me and my Atari collection? So the company that rented the atari logo and slapped it on the VCS are douchebags??? That sucks, but it doesn't have shit to do with me.

That 'someone' was Atari SA. IIRC, there were lawsuits filed, but can't recall what became of all that. If there's anything that this iteration of Atari truly shares with the past ones, it's enjoyment in filing lawsuits. They also have a long track record of screwing over their "partners" when it comes to things like payments, although dunno if the same trend has continued with their present CEO. Still, that's a very difficult bridge to put back together after you've burned so many people. So while it doesn't directly affect you or your Atari collection, it does end up creating less value for the VCS in general, as the pool of developers/talent willing to work with them on creating content isn't as large is it could be otherwise. 

 

Quote

It's not going to stop me from buying one.

I might have overlooked it in your posts, but why do you want to buy one? Just as an emulation box?

 

As for your question about what would make it a "real" Atari system, the original pitch made it sound like it was going to be a great place for all of the homebrewers here on AA to go and create things. That had some merit on paper, but it soon became obvious that no one really knew what they were doing with the VCS. That and they completely misread the room on why people still make games for old systems. If they had some kind of unique "Atari 2600 Game Maker" for the VCS, then maybe it would hold some value in that regard, but really it still makes more sense, from my perspective, to get one of the various SD cart solutions for your old Atari hardware or buy carts direct from places like AA, than it does to buy an Obscure Indie Game Showcase machine with an Atari logo on it.   

[Draxxon]

3 minutes ago, Shaggy the Atarian said:

I might have overlooked it in your posts, but why do you want to buy one? Just as an emulation box?

Yes, and because its an Atari. Same reason I bought the AFB9, X and Branded Pi 3 and even the RentroN77. I like to tinker with shit.

Edited November 9, 2021 by Draxxon