The Atari VCS Controversies Thread

[OldSchoolRetroGamer]

1 minute ago, Draxxon said:

Yes, and because its an Atari.

?

[Draxxon]

Im sorry, I meant a "real" atari. 

people said the same thing about the AFB9 and X and I dont see anyone bitching about those anymore. In fact, I see them selling for $100 bucks.

Edited November 9, 2021 by Draxxon

[leech]

3 hours ago, Bill Loguidice said:

It's my understanding that even though no port is particularly faithful (beyond the PC version, which is closest) the PS1, Saturn, and 3DO versions are all better than the Jaguar version, which suffers from tiny sprites and other issues. I guess overall, though, with all of the ports, it's a matter of what omissions and concessions bother you the least versus the original.

Tiny sprites?

[Draxxon]

yeah bro, PC version looks like shit, I know my fighting games. Im guessing that when it first came out there was like SNES, GB, GG, SMD, PSX and PC. PC was probably thought to be the best version at that time. No way its better than the saturn or midway arcade treasures versions that probably came later.

The pc versions sure looks like it has smaller sprites (but maybe not) Its definitely missing some animation frames. and no char shadows and fucked up music/SFX. Game play and combos look smooth, Ill give it that, and Ive never played it so there is that as well. lets compare!
 

 

 

You can tell that first version is regular mame. look how launched opponents land in mid air. Thats that bootleg proof safety shit I was talking about. MAME version is actually unplayable if you ask me.

EDIT: Saturn version looks best. Jaguar is missing shadows and looks a bit dated. MAT2 looks good at first glance, but I feel like saturn still edges it out. An untrained eye may not catch it, but the blood is not fully on in the MAT2. See the gray/brown sweat on the weaker hits? You cant get to the dipswitches to turn the blood on high (red) on that version IIRC.

Saturn looks slow and choppy and has glitches in this video, but, Im sure its emulation. On a real saturn its smooth.

1. Saturn

2. MAT2
3. PSX

4. JaguarCD
5. PC DOS

Just my opinion bro.

Edited November 9, 2021 by Draxxon

[Draxxon]

5 hours ago, Shaggy the Atarian said:

So while it doesn't directly affect you or your Atari collection, it does end up creating less value for the VCS in general, as the pool of developers/talent willing to work with them on creating content isn't as large is it could be otherwise. 

 

 

 

As for your question about what would make it a "real" Atari system, the original pitch made it sound like it was going to be a great place for all of the homebrewers here on AA to go and create things. That had some merit on paper, but it soon became obvious that no one really knew what they were doing with the VCS. That and they completely misread the room on why people still make games for old systems. If they had some kind of unique "Atari 2600 Game Maker" for the VCS, then maybe it would hold some value in that regard, but really it still makes more sense, from my perspective, to get one of the various SD cart solutions for your old Atari hardware or buy carts direct from places like AA, than it does to buy an Obscure Indie Game Showcase machine with an Atari logo on it.   

For that first part, you really make a good point and a lot of sense. You really made me stop and think. While Im being an asshole only worried about myself and "my atari collection" thinking it doesnt affect me, well, it actually does. Imma big mouth idiot. (thats always fun to learn, lol)

Getting homebrew on the VCS should be a priority, Ive talked about that with others before. missed opportunity. They could still try something, even if its just sell the homebrews that are already out there and give the creators a cut, it doesnt even have to be a game maker, although that would be cool.

What if the VCS played A2600, sears tele-games versions, 5200, 7800, Lynx, 8-bit computers, XEGS, Atari arcade games, the weird flashback 1 nes ports, all the other flashback originals, Atari BASIC, TURBO BASIC XL, the Antic and other magazine type in games, real and homebrew games, and had a media viewer and a jukebox and a karaoke machine, Odyssey 2, Intellivision, ColecoVision, etc, with box art and custom bezels per game, with original atari joysticks and paddles, that would be cool right...

 

well the AFBs do it right now. To be totally honest, Im not interested in the VCS one bit. Im interested in adding Atari ST and Jaguar games to the mix and having keyboard and controllers with more than one button support. and I need a more powerful computer and I want a kick ass Atari case on it. so guess what is cooler than the branded Pi 3 and 2 hyperkin trooper IIs.... That VCS. Sure there are better cheaper solutions, but, I want to build it into an Atari everyone thinks they hate, like the AFBs. Because Im an asshole.

I know, I know, the retron has newer stella and galagon, well so does the AFB, and we just got emulators running outside of retroarch. Nobody knows, because every thinks they already know. You can play Atari 8-bit prince of persia homebrew on it right now. As a "gamer" i would rather play that than centipede recharged, just my opinions. Prince of Persia is like a work of art, recharged series, while kinda nifty, is like geometry wars fucked missile command and had a baby.

Edited November 9, 2021 by Draxxon

[roots.genoa]

2 hours ago, Draxxon said:

MAT2 looks good at first glance, but I feel like saturn still edges it out.

What is MAT2?

[+GoldLeader]

1 hour ago, roots.genoa said:

What is MAT2?

 I believe he's referring to Midway Arcade Treasures 2.

[leech]

5 hours ago, Draxxon said:

What if the VCS played A2600, sears tele-games versions, 5200, 7800, Lynx, 8-bit computers, XEGS, Atari arcade games, the weird flashback 1 nes ports, all the other flashback originals, Atari BASIC, TURBO BASIC XL, the Antic and other magazine type in games, real and homebrew games, and had a media viewer and a jukebox and a karaoke machine, Odyssey 2, Intellivision, ColecoVision, etc, with box art and custom bezels per game, with original atari joysticks and paddles, that would be cool right...

I mean it has MAME on it, that is how it is running Atari 7800 games.  Problem is, from what I have been seeing, MAME has pretty poor Atari 8bit and 5200 support.  Not sure about their other consoles / computers. 

I need to try setting up some 5200 games, and try out my USB adapter I have...

[Bill Loguidice]

I've heard this emulation-centered approach and having the whole Atari library plan before. The problem is, Atari themselves has limited game holdings, so you're not going to see much more than what we've seen on Vault, Flashbacks, and Evercade (and it's a very well worn library at this point). On the Atari 8-bit side it's mostly the same stuff as on their other platforms. Most probably don't need or want multiple similar versions of the same games. It would be expensive and difficult for a variety of reasons for Atari to license content from third parties as well. 

 

I think a different plan would have been needed for those reasons and others.

Edited November 9, 2021 by Bill Loguidice

[El Livo Cat]

57 minutes ago, Bill Loguidice said:

I've heard this emulation-centered approach and having the whole Atari library plan before. The problem is, Atari themselves has limited game holdings, so you're not going to see much more than what we've seen on Vault, Flashbacks, and Evercade (and it's a very well worn library at this point). On the Atari 8-bit side it's mostly the same stuff as on their other platforms. Most probably don't need or want multiple similar versions of the same games. It would be expensive and difficult for a variety of reasons for Atari to license content from third parties as well. 

 

I think a different plan would have been needed for those reasons and others.

It’s interesting that you think a project that has yet to be released by a company with mostly cash flow “out”…can get more things accomplished then a project that has been released by a company with serious cash flow “in”…interesting to me?

 

Also…no offense to the kiddie/Hyper(Scan) casual game project that may or may not make it through 2 Christmas seasons. 

[zzip]

18 hours ago, Draxxon said:

Money Grab. That's obviously the clear reason @Bill Loguidice, but they can't say that. I think that's why all the attacks on its NOT REAL ATARI!!!! Because that is exactly its purpose and what it has going for it. That's why the extra attention to the case. You mess around with it for a year, or two or three if your lucky, and then it goes into storage or on a shelf next to a Jaguar, IDK man. It's a "modern, playable shelf piece", if it needs a label, lol.

I guess that depends on what their break-even point is.    Can a niche console with its own app store and small user base be profitable for a small company?    IDK the answer to that.   My gut says they probably need to sell a lot more than they have.    But on the other hand, producing in small quantities is a boon for collectors if that's their target market.

[Bill Loguidice]

Look, the Amico has its own set of issues, no doubt. I gave them and others (Playdate, with that silly crank and low tech parts) credit for having a unique value proposition in the market, something the VCS does not. In other words, that whole reason/justification to exist thing. The Amico was also able to get far better retail distribution and reach than the VCS and was able to secure many more original titles/exclusives. It seems like it pre-sold more than the VCS will ever sell, so there's also that. Whether the Amico results in long-term success is anyone's guess (I'm leaning towards no, but A for effort). Step 1 is to get the thing physically in people's hands, of course, something it's failed spectacularly to do to date (the worldwide logistics issues have not been kind to most new products, but they were clearly going to be in a delay even before that became a bigger issue). 

 

Again, whether the Amico approach pays off remains to be seen. They're positioning themselves for success if for some reason the platform takes off (in its own relative way, of course - there's no scenario where it's a major competitor to anything). The VCS was never in a position to have the potential to take off. It ended up an overpriced, underpowered machine with little appeal outside a very specific and tiny demographic. That doesn't take away from the fact that that tiny demographic can still enjoy it a great deal. Hopefully even if the Amico fails, its supporters can still enjoy the content for many years to come.

 

(Disclaimer: I pre-ordered an Amico founders edition because it piqued my curiosity, particularly the control schemes. I half-heartedly tried to get a Playdate, but since it sold out so quickly I lost interest in having to wait for next year's shipment. They're just a few of the examples of how I pretty much try to go in on everything to satisfy my curiosity. The VCS never once tempted me, though I would have at least considered it had the price been considerably lower.)

[zzip]

17 hours ago, Draxxon said:

And like every other system in history, if you can make a killer app, exclusive-must play game, people will buy the fucking system. (Hey, Atari.... You should have kept Primal Rage..

 

17 hours ago, leech said:

Would be awesome if the gauntlet series was owned by them again

Weren't Primal Rage and Gauntlet owned by the other Atari (Atari Games/ex arcade-division of Warner Atari),  and therefore never part of the lineage of this Atari?

 

13 hours ago, Shaggy the Atarian said:

As for your question about what would make it a "real" Atari system, the original pitch made it sound like it was going to be a great place for all of the homebrewers here on AA to go and create things.

What's stopping them?   You can run virtually any homebrew posted here on a VCS under emulation,  Or if you want to develop homebrew-  it supports standard development tools.

[Bill Loguidice]

32 minutes ago, zzip said:

I guess that depends on what their break-even point is.    Can a niche console with its own app store and small user base be profitable for a small company?    IDK the answer to that.   My gut says they probably need to sell a lot more than they have.    But on the other hand, producing in small quantities is a boon for collectors if that's their target market.

I find this collectability aspect particularly intriguing. Is there really going to be collectability for commodity PC hardware in a custom case? I would never bet against collectors, but it's definitely an interesting thought of how that market may or may not actually develop in the future.

[El Livo Cat]

15 minutes ago, Bill Loguidice said:

Look, the Amico has its own set of issues, no doubt. I gave them and others (Playdate, with that silly crank and low tech parts) credit for having a unique value proposition in the market, something the VCS does not. In other words, that whole reason/justification to exist thing. The Amico was also able to get far better retail distribution and reach than the VCS and was able to secure many more original titles/exclusives. It seems like it pre-sold more than the VCS will ever sell, so there's also that. Whether the Amico results in long-term success is anyone's guess (I'm leaning towards no, but A for effort). Step 1 is to get the thing physically in people's hands, of course, something it's failed spectacularly to do to date (the worldwide logistics issues have not been kind to most new products, but they were clearly going to be in a delay even before that became a bigger issue). 

 

Again, whether the Amico approach pays off remains to be seen. They're positioning themselves for success if for some reason the platform takes off (in its own relative way, of course - there's no scenario where it's a major competitor to anything). The VCS was never in a position to have the potential to take off. It ended up an overpriced, underpowered machine with little appeal outside a very specific and tiny demographic. That doesn't take away from the fact that that tiny demographic can still enjoy it a great deal. Hopefully even if the Amico fails, its supporters can still enjoy the content for many years to come.

 

(Disclaimer: I pre-ordered an Amico founders edition because it piqued my curiosity, particularly the control schemes. I half-heartedly tried to get a Playdate, but since it sold out so quickly I lost interest in having to wait for next year's shipment. They're just a few of the examples of how I pretty much try to go in on everything to satisfy my curiosity. The VCS never once tempted me, though I would have at least considered it had the price been considerably lower.)

Curious…do you think ATARI is not going to do anything for their 50th. Anniversary year…in terms of marketing/sales/nostalgia?

 

And…do you think that ATARI will NOT include their new system in those plans if there are any plans…for their 50th. Anniversary year?

[zzip]

Just now, Bill Loguidice said:

I find this collectability aspect particularly intriguing. Is there really going to be collectability for commodity PC hardware in a custom case? I would never bet against collectors, but it's definitely an interesting thought of how that market may or may not actually develop in the future.

Look at it this way...   Back in the 90s the Jaguar was a disappointing console that few wanted.   The JagCD faired even worse.     I bought both on clearance for $49 each at Electronics Boutique.   But I couldn't even justify owning it at those prices so resold it within a year.   Nowadays they are hot items that sell for hundreds.

 

This is also not the first Atari PC.   The Atari PC1-5 line from the 80s is extremely rare and doesn't sell for commodity PC prices.

 

PC market is subject to same supply and demand.   Common PC parts you can't give away,  but when you have something rare people will pay decent money for it.   The VCS mainboard is etched with glyphs of asteroids and other Atari-themed Easter eggs,  which is odd since most people will never see that stuff.  But I imagine it was done to boost its collectability.

.  

[zzip]

3 minutes ago, El Livo Cat said:

Curious…do you think ATARI is not going to do anything for their 50th. Anniversary year…in terms of marketing/sales/nostalgia?

 

And…do you think that ATARI will NOT include their new system in those plans if there are any plans…for their 50th. Anniversary year?

The BIOS password to the VCS references their 50th anniversary, so I think it's on their mind

[6502wrangler]

5 minutes ago, El Livo Cat said:

Curious…do you think ATARI is not going to do anything for their 50th. Anniversary year…in terms of marketing/sales/nostalgia?

 

And…do you think that ATARI will NOT include their new system in those plans if there are any plans…for their 50th. Anniversary year?

Maybe me and some investors can revive the Studebaker line, write some blog posts about how “we” were such an automotive innovator back in the day, come out with a warmed over clone of a 2005 Honda Civic and then plan some big festivities for our 160th year anniversary next year. 

 

I’m sure the collectors would eat it up. I mean, come on, you are drive a Studebaker!

[El Livo Cat]

8 minutes ago, 6502wrangler said:

Maybe me and some investors can revive the Studebaker line, write some blog posts about how “we” were such an automotive innovator back in the day, come out with a warmed over clone of a 2005 Honda Civic and then plan some big festivities for our 160th year anniversary next year. 

 

I’m sure the collectors would eat it up. I mean, come on, you are drive a Studebaker!

Ummmm…maybe if it was something a bit more current…you should have used a better analogy. 
 

Like…a new American Motors with updated Gremlins made from the 2005 Honda Civics…dude…I “might” be onboard that project. 

[+Nathan Strum]

1 hour ago, Bill Loguidice said:

Look, the Amico has its own set of issues, no doubt. I gave them and others (Playdate, with that silly crank and low tech parts) credit for having a unique value proposition in the market, something the VCS does not.

It has a logo that lights up.

[El Livo Cat]

5 minutes ago, Nathan Strum said:

It has a logo that lights up.

? + spinner > “homage” Mattel controllers + touchscreen

 

 

[Draxxon]

 

3 hours ago, Bill Loguidice said:

I've heard this emulation-centered approach and having the whole Atari library plan before. The problem is, Atari themselves has limited game holdings, so you're not going to see much more than what we've seen on Vault, Flashbacks, and Evercade (and it's a very well worn library at this point). On the Atari 8-bit side it's mostly the same stuff as on their other platforms. Most probably don't need or want multiple similar versions of the same games. It would be expensive and difficult for a variety of reasons for Atari to license content from third parties as well. 

 

I think a different plan would have been needed for those reasons and others.

I wasnt trying to give the impression that i want to buy these digital games. I will build my own setup.

I disagree about 8bit stuff. there are 1000s of games. While true that home computers, XEGS and 5200 have a similar library, that library is quite different than the 2600 library most people are familiar with. 

Edited November 9, 2021 by Draxxon

[Bill Loguidice]

2 minutes ago, Draxxon said:

 

I wasnt trying to give the impression that i want to buy these digital games. I will build my own setup.

I disagree about 8bit stuff. there are 1000s of games.

Please re-read what I wrote. There's nothing to disagree with me about. What I said is fact. The current Atari themselves has limited first party game holdings for their platforms. They would have to license anything that they don't own to put on there or anything else, which is neither cheap nor easy, especially considering many licenses are locked into existing form factor or other platform-specific restrictions. 

[Draxxon]

I re read it. I wasnt saying atari should sell the shit, I said I want to set it up myself.

You said the 8bit stuff is the same as stuff on other consoles, there are 1000s of home computer games, like, past finder, that arent on 2600. So I do disagree.

And that PC Primal Rage port isnt the best version. Saturn is.

Bill, what gives? I dont think you like me. lol.

Edited November 9, 2021 by Draxxon

[El Livo Cat]

2 minutes ago, Bill Loguidice said:

Please re-read what I wrote. There's nothing to disagree with me about. What I said is fact. The current Atari themselves has limited first party game holdings for their platforms. They would have to license anything that they don't own to put on there or anything else, which is neither cheap nor easy, especially considering many licenses are locked into existing form factor or other platform-specific restrictions. 

Please don’t take offense to this…I mean with your ties & compensation & all…ATARI fans actually do want better than just Flashbacks. 
 

Sorry if that troubles your or anyone’s soul.