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The Atari VCS Controversies Thread

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2 hours ago, Shaggy the Atarian said:

If I'm understanding you correctly, the way to product success at retail are: 1) price 2) "build it and they'll buy" 

 

1) If that were true, then every sub-$300 gaming product ever placed in a Wal-Mart would be a smashing success. Odd that such logic didn't work out for the WiiU.

 

2) Playing off/paraphrasing the idea from Field of Dreams, game consoles aren't baseball fields in Hollywood movies. History is littered with the husks of failed consoles/PC/hybrid concepts, with Atari supplying plenty of those. There is no evidence that there's any demand for the VCS in any way outside of a miniscule blip in the gaming community. The only way it would ever "sell" is if it didn't have far superior and better backed products that consumers could buy. 

 

Yes. Fundamentally that’s typically all it was. I worked at Wal-Mart for quite a few years. There’s a “magic price point”.
 

If you price a laptop at $249-299 you’d sell every last one. $319 you’d sell none. 
 

The Wii U just wasn’t seen as an “impulse” item. Bulk of the controller, sharing part of the name with the Wii, just some of the factors. It’s hard to explain why this works this way but it’s how it is. If you brought Pandora’s box units in you’d sell every one but that’s as long as they’re sub $199. There’s a factor you can see in an item when you worked there long enough and you kind of know just what will and won’t sell. Sub $299 Atari units will likely sell very well. In fact they’re almost better off selling the controllers separately and bundling no controller. The Joystick should be priced at the same price as any standard controller. A $359 or $379 or $399 bundle would sell worse than selling a base unit at $249, $279 or $299 and selling the controller separately. 
 

All this unit needs to be is retro combine with more modern functionality at the correct price point. You could do it with a Commodore, an Apple IIe wouldn’t matter. It’s about what it delivers and price. 

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1 minute ago, yrly said:

All this unit needs to be is retro combine with more modern functionality at the correct price point.

 

 

impossible.gif

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7 hours ago, The Historian said:

Yeah, I feel like I covered that...

 

 

7 hours ago, The Historian said:

True Fans will clearly be understanding about anything

I wouldn't say the people on the backer discord are 'True Fans' as they are definitely pointing out the flaws and issues.  Some have been absolutely pissed and sold their stuff already. 

Guess unless you are actually a part of said discussions you would see.  They have already released OS updates, people were pissed they lost their save games, as they added in better multiuser support. 

Hell, one of their devs was wvwn annoyed with tgem so users made sure to call out to tge Atari support people in the chats that they need to pay attention and the next day the communication with the dev was sorted (it literally was over the holidays that the dev was getting antsy because no one was around to QA his new build.)

 

I have seen 'True Fans' of Apple products where they twist around things that Apple mess up into 'for the greater good' or 'why would you need that anyway, just buy a new one' (like for soldering ram on the motherboard).

 

Sure, I bet there are 'True Fans'  I am not one.  I am more a fan of other things about the VCS than Atari.  (I like gadgets I can run Linux on)

Edited by leech
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5 hours ago, yrly said:

 

The Wii U just wasn’t seen as an “impulse” item. Bulk of the controller, sharing part of the name with the Wii, just some of the factors. It’s hard to explain why this works this way but it’s how it is. 

I'm needing a little more here.  The VCS is (hypothetically) $300 and shares a name with a well-loved predecessor, and you can move a pallet of them.  The Wii-U was (in reality) $300 and shared a name with a well-loved predecessor, and gathered dust.  Let's not forget that the Wii-U offered games relevant to the current generation... so much so that when they were re-released on the Switch, they sold like crazy.

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4 hours ago, godslabrat said:

I'm needing a little more here.  The VCS is (hypothetically) $300 and shares a name with a well-loved predecessor, and you can move a pallet of them.  The Wii-U was (in reality) $300 and shared a name with a well-loved predecessor, and gathered dust.  Let's not forget that the Wii-U offered games relevant to the current generation... so much so that when they were re-released on the Switch, they sold like crazy.

Wait, you're wondering why this didn't sell?  1200px-Wii_U_Console_and_Gamepad.png

I actually think it didn't sell well because most people who already wanted one, would have had a Wii, right?  I never did understand what the purpose of the Wii-U was, what did it have over the Wii besides that weird screen as a controller (none of those things ever really sell.  It's either mobile, or console, but some weird thing where you're tied to the console but have to look at your controller for the benefit?)  I don't even know how that works, as I didn't see much info on the Wii-U back when it was being sold. 

Look at how well the weird 5200 sold.  Generally weird controllers will make/break a system's success, it seems.  Ha, probably the one exception to that is the N64, which seemed to have some decent success, but a really odd controller layout.  The Dreamcast was similar, but definitely some odd choices in the controller there, and look how that one succeeded...

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4 hours ago, godslabrat said:

I'm needing a little more here.  The VCS is (hypothetically) $300 and shares a name with a well-loved predecessor, and you can move a pallet of them.  The Wii-U was (in reality) $300 and shared a name with a well-loved predecessor, and gathered dust.  Let's not forget that the Wii-U offered games relevant to the current generation... so much so that when they were re-released on the Switch, they sold like crazy.

This is a weird thing you have to work there for long enough to be able to gauge. Wii U came off as kinda clunky which didn’t help but it didn’t have the right size, shape, flash, feel etc. Having started there in high school and working through college you become surprisingly good at gauging stuff. When the new stuff comes in you can up just open it at say what will and won’t sell. The Atari VCS will sell, it’s got the necessary aesthetics, functionality and packaging that will appeal to a certain group of Wal-Mart shoppers. The Wii U customer was typically mid 30s to mid 40s daily grind lower middle class non tech saavy working parent (from experience). It’s probably largely because the bulky controller looked like those kids tablets but the Wii U was also expensive for what came across as an elaborate kids toy.  This is why the same stuff sells on a Switch. Those types of toys have historically sold badly even ones that seemed technologically edgier. Look at the Juicebox for instance. 
 

This particular Atari has the necessary appeal factors however it must make price point and be in sufficient quantity. IGG is a bad benchmark for demand because there are enough expensive products like this that just never materialized. One question is why did Wal-Mart cancel preorders? Did demand outstrip supply? Can Atari not make enough? Can they not meet price? Could they not meet target date? Is there too little demand? My guess is insufficient supply fast enough. That’ll be the downfall of the VCS more than anything. Having had a look at the design this is something they should be able to churn out in droves if they handled things well.

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6 minutes ago, leech said:

Wait, you're wondering why this didn't sell?  1200px-Wii_U_Console_and_Gamepad.png

I actually think it didn't sell well because most people who already wanted one, would have had a Wii, right?  I never did understand what the purpose of the Wii-U was, what did it have over the Wii besides that weird screen as a controller (none of those things ever really sell.  It's either mobile, or console, but some weird thing where you're tied to the console but have to look at your controller for the benefit?)  I don't even know how that works, as I didn't see much info on the Wii-U back when it was being sold. 

Look at how well the weird 5200 sold.  Generally weird controllers will make/break a system's success, it seems.  Ha, probably the one exception to that is the N64, which seemed to have some decent success, but a really odd controller layout.  The Dreamcast was similar, but definitely some odd choices in the controller there, and look how that one succeeded...

Dreamcast’s biggest downfall was more that it it almost launched too soon jumping the gun by a year on the PS2. This left it underpowered. Price point was good and it had initial success but didn’t last long. N64 meanwhile hampered itself with cart prices particularly on large ones that’s probably the same reason Skyhammer never came out for Jag during its lifetime (if I recall it was a 64Mb cart which would probably have run $70 had it come out in 95-96 before jag busted). The Wii U like I said in the above post looked like an elaborate kids toy, but demographic that bought those types of things doesn’t impulse buy them at $300. 

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15 minutes ago, yrly said:

This particular Atari has the necessary appeal factors however it must make price point and be in sufficient quantity. IGG is a bad benchmark for demand because there are enough expensive products like this that just never materialized. One question is why did Wal-Mart cancel preorders? Did demand outstrip supply? Can Atari not make enough? Can they not meet price? Could they not meet target date? Is there too little demand? My guess is insufficient supply fast enough. That’ll be the downfall of the VCS more than anything. Having had a look at the design this is something they should be able to churn out in droves if they handled things well.

image.thumb.png.2dd77a9f54e81e2ad757304edc794433.png

Apparently they still are selling the Jaguar :P

Yeah, it'll be interesting if they can supply enough for demand.  From my understanding of it (which is little, mind you) that was one of the big reasons the Jag failed.  There simply weren't enough of them made to go around to all the stores and be in stock long enough for people to notice them.  No user base, means that very few developers were willing to try to make games for them.  So many studios took a 'wait and see' approach, and because of that the Jaguar never did have a lot of third parties sign on for it.  And a game console without games...

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1 hour ago, leech said:

image.thumb.png.2dd77a9f54e81e2ad757304edc794433.png

Apparently they still are selling the Jaguar :P

Yeah, it'll be interesting if they can supply enough for demand.  From my understanding of it (which is little, mind you) that was one of the big reasons the Jag failed.  There simply weren't enough of them made to go around to all the stores and be in stock long enough for people to notice them.  No user base, means that very few developers were willing to try to make games for them.  So many studios took a 'wait and see' approach, and because of that the Jaguar never did have a lot of third parties sign on for it.  And a game console without games...

VCS has the decided advantage it will play many games available on Steam/epic etc.

 

Jaguar... where to go. Well the only places that had it were Electronics Boutique and this short lived place VGE, Lechmere which was like always first on expensive technology didn’t even have them. VGE was a cool store but unfortunately only survived a year around here.  VGE had it hooked up running Doom. Now had they done that everywhere they likely wouldn’t have had issues selling it because it blew away the 32X. It’s not that there wasn’t buzz around it. I was in school at the time people wanted them. There just wasn’t availability early enough on. Around that time you got the 3DO, Saturn, 32X and PSX. Early on though the Saturn was too expensive along with 3DO. 32X was pretty much figured to be a stop gap until Saturn could get the price down. So Jaguar did have a fleeting window.

 

Now that’s kinda the VCS window. I’m pretty convinced people would buy them if Atari could delivery quantities. What’s gonna happen though if they drag along not knowing what to do with it is someome is gonna throw a less powerful (but still sufficient) mini PC into the next rehash of some retro console put a software skin on it which will allow your efficient emulation, windows, streaming, whatever and that’s that. Probably won’t be as expandable but no matter because it’ll be available and meet the price. People jailbreak systems to get that functionality. Still though the industry isn’t gonna wait. Jazz up some celeron pc in a box as a Turbo Graphx redux at $249 put a nice enough software skin on it and that’s that.

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The Wii-U was incredibly frustrating for me, as a fan of Nintendo in general and of the system specifically.  On paper, there was no reason it shouldn't have been able to compete with the 360 and PS3.  It had comparable tech, plus Nintendo's exclusives.  The problem was, Nintendo kept trying to focus on the stuff that no one cared about (the tablet being first on the list) at the expense of stuff that could have been bigger had they put some muscle into it (social media, streaming, TVii).  The tablet wasn't even a completely terrible idea, but the fact that it became the hill Nintendo had to die on just sunk the works.  If they could have made a tablet-free version that could sell for $220, comparisions between it and the other two systems would have been much more even.  It was also a time when being able to play Blu-Ray (or at least DVD) was still really relevant, so not having that as an option was, again, a problem Nintendo gave themselves.

 

The legacy of the Wii-U is that, if you like the original Wii, it's the best system to play those games.  But it could have been so much more.  

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57 minutes ago, yrly said:

This is a weird thing you have to work there for long enough to be able to gauge. Wii U came off as kinda clunky which didn’t help but it didn’t have the right size, shape, flash, feel etc. Having started there in high school and working through college you become surprisingly good at gauging stuff. When the new stuff comes in you can up just open it at say what will and won’t sell. The Atari VCS will sell, it’s got the necessary aesthetics, functionality and packaging that will appeal to a certain group of Wal-Mart shoppers. The Wii U customer was typically mid 30s to mid 40s daily grind lower middle class non tech saavy working parent (from experience). It’s probably largely because the bulky controller looked like those kids tablets but the Wii U was also expensive for what came across as an elaborate kids toy.  This is why the same stuff sells on a Switch. Those types of toys have historically sold badly even ones that seemed technologically edgier. Look at the Juicebox for instance. 
 

This particular Atari has the necessary appeal factors however it must make price point and be in sufficient quantity. IGG is a bad benchmark for demand because there are enough expensive products like this that just never materialized. One question is why did Wal-Mart cancel preorders? Did demand outstrip supply? Can Atari not make enough? Can they not meet price? Could they not meet target date? Is there too little demand? My guess is insufficient supply fast enough. That’ll be the downfall of the VCS more than anything. Having had a look at the design this is something they should be able to churn out in droves if they handled things well.

I'm sorry, but...

 

Spiderman Lol GIF - Spiderman Lol Jonahjameson GIFs

 

I can't take you seriously when your argument claims that one of the most recognizable gaming brands on the planet had a major product flop (even though they were at your supposedly magical price point of becoming a guaranteed impulse buy) but somehow the VCS will do gangbusters just because... it's Atari and you worked at retail for a while?

 

You seem to imply that kids would go crazy for something that looks like a 43-year old game console that they've probably never even played - this ignores the many factors that go into a product being a success. The VCS has a logo and nostalgic shape - no one cares about the PC mode (excepting the minuscule group of "early adopters" that would buy anything with an Atari logo on it, regardless the reason). It's nothing more than something that makes you guys who already spent the money on one to feel good, but no "Netflix mom" is going to look at that and be thinking "Finally, a game system that allows me to explore the wonders of Linux!" or "I wonder what the Adventure block looks like in 4K?" Chances are that if they do see it - which they probably won't as I highly doubt that Atari will manage to get this into a Wal-Mart or Target - they'll wonder why that thing that looks like the Flashback that they bought for their husband for Christmas a few years ago, but it costs a ton more than it did and why should they buy it again when their kids or husband never plays the FB in the first place.

 

As for appealing to kids - where are you getting this idea from? What has Atari done in recent memory that appeals to kids and gets them talking about it at school? Absolutely nothing. Every kid right now knows who Mario & Zelda are. Good luck at floating Bentley Bear, Commander Champion or the Pong rectangle at them and getting them to care.  I have a feeling that you VCS guys think that Atari games were still recent classics instead of relatively ancient artifacts:

 

facebook_1612887657066_6764941151585053347.jpg

 

Since we're also comparing Atari & Nintendo, last I checked, Nintendo was a multi-billion dollar company with virtually no debt, while Atari is happy they're scraping by on lawsuits and licenses, while hoping that blockchain and trying out every crowdfunding idea on the block goes viral for them. Just compare the stocks...they're not even in the same universe of value:

image.png.200721fba57b8847fa318dbb2d02e082.png

image.png.8488b84694258397d11fe21fb9287792.png

 

Not to mention that the NES outsold the VCS by more than 2:1, if you're wanting to compare nostalgia. Yeah I like the Atari of old, but I'm not going to pretend that Nintendo isn't a far, far more popular brand and has been since the NES launched here in 1985. Having worked at Wal-Mart, you should know how well anything with a Nintendo logo sells, even the flops.


You supporters are using the rosiest colored glasses I've ever seen in fandom, and while it's fine to like something, you're just setting yourself up for a massive disappointment when the VCS will be nothing more than a tiny blip on the history of gaming's radar.

 

 

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2 minutes ago, Shaggy the Atarian said:

I can't take you seriously when your argument claims that one of the most recognizable gaming brands on the planet had a major product flop (even though they were at your supposedly magical price point of becoming a guaranteed impulse buy) but somehow the VCS will do gangbusters just because... it's Atari and you worked at retail for a while?

 

 

To be fair, I worked at Circuit City for several years.  I also would get a sinking feeling when certain products would show up, knowing they were just a horrible mismatch of what they did vs. what they cost.  As for the stinkers that just sat on shelves, I always had to wonder what idiot in corporate approved it, and what terrible "market research" had sold them on the idea.

 

There was a certain price point where people stopped using critical thinking and would often take a risk on any piece of garbage that looked "fun", but that price was considerably less than $300.  Honestly, you'd start to hit resistance once you got past $99.99.  As has been said so many ways, if someone walks into Wal-Mart with $300 in their pocket and sees the Atari VCS, there's no comparison they could make that favors the VCS.  In the odd event that someone gets duped into thinking it's a fully usable computer out of the box, or a video game system on par with an Xbox, you can be sure they would discover their mistake within an hour of opening the thing up.

 

Not a small point to make: Wal-Mart has a very generous return policy, and people returning items there because of buyer's remorse is almost proverbial.

 

But to take this out of speculation and back to reality, there are about 3,500 Wal Mart supercenters in the US.  Let's put aside the idea of each one selling a pallet of Atari VCS units.  If each store were to get six of them, Atari would need to produce another 21,000 units, plus enough to handle warranty issues and replacements, of which they've already had their share.  So, a very conservative number would be them having to produce at least 25,000 more units.  And this is the same company that nearly choked the fish trying to fill less than 10,000 IGG orders.  

 

Where would Atari get the money to make nearly 30,000 units?  

Would Wal-Mart actually have confidence in them to deliver on time?

Would Wal-Mart have any faith in Atari to buy back any unsold stock?

 

I'm going to make the suggestion that stocking the VCS at retail would put nearly ALL the risk on Wal-Mart, for honestly very little reward.  They've been working with Atari SA on this for about three years now, and have not made any move to help Atari get the VCS into stores or help fund production.  I'd conclude they have their reasoning.

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I've worked retail too, and I've sold products from the wholesale distribution end. I operate a small business in two malls right now and we often do things with our neighboring game stores (I'm an arcade so I don't sell the traditional inventory route). One of those stores sells everything from the 2600 to the PS5; I asked them about the VCS and they don't have any interest in it because they don't think it will sell and they've had no inquiries about it either. The logic they would use for not carrying a gaming product would certainly be a bit more loose than Wal-Mart would, since they tend to carry it all, even those Retron consoles. They still won't touch it. I should ask them about their thoughts on the Amico next time I'm in.

 

Either way, the notion that something will sell solely based on price & brand is too simplistic and why I don't buy the argument. If the VCS were the only gaming product on the market, or truly one of two, then sure. But it isn't 1978 anymore - nothing it offers brings any value to the table over what I already have for gaming. As us "manbaby haters" have pointed out before, the Atari VCS should be an easy buy for all of us here at AA. If it was offering something other than PC mode, then it would. As just something from Atari, that's not good enough for a vast majority of consumers. I didn't buy a Switch because it's a Nintendo product; I bought it because it had several games I wanted and my kids wanted; the handheld function was a nice touch. As far as I can tell, the PC mode is nothing more than a nice touch for someone already convinced to buy one. How does it truly sway anyone away from buying a Switch/XBX/PS5 or laptop? No clue. 

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If your desired market is impulse buyers you really want the price to be $99 or less. At least, that's why the Flashback is the price that it is, and how they're selling enough to be onto the tenth generation of them by now.

 

Once you tick over that third digit, you're entering into a realm where all but the most brand-loyal customers are going to be looking for value for money. Supermarkets will still sell things like $300 no-name TVs, but they've got to be the same size as $400 Samsung ones. A no-name console that's $100 more than an Xbox or a Switch probably isn't going to shift. At $200-250 it might be a different story, but Atari have to be willing to go there first.


 

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I don’t think it’s going to appeal to kids at all. It’s gonna appeal to 20s-30s hipsters, techies, and 50 plus adults who now have disposable income to ditch on such a thing. That 20-30s hipster crowd is huge at Wal-Mart and drives sales on stuff like vinyl records. They’ll buy presuming the price is right. They often see those flashbacks as sort of “disposable”.

 

Contrary to any said belief in I’m not really any sort of real fanboy of it. 

 

Wal-Mart meanwhile also contrary to belief doesn’t care about tons of profit on everything their goal is actually more gross sales volume with which they believe the profit will come. They sell stuff like Tennis Balls at a loss just because it gets someone in the door. If the Atari had 5% markup they wouldn’t care if a person went in the doors that’s why a lot of those bargains are in store only on their website. They know most people buy more than that.  As far as the Atari, Wal-Mart would out and out front the money to get these made if Atari could meet some promised deadline if Wal-Mart thinks it gives them some sort of inherent competitive advantage over say Best Buy or GameStop. They’d even stock them if it got you to buy a PS5 and PS5 games instead. The VCS to them is chump change in the grand scheme. I still think this is a pretty easy sell at sub $299, it just shouldn’t cost more. I think in this case any hesitations on Wal-Mart’s part in helping get a ball rolling is really on Atari’s lack of meeting a deadline. Atari has had enough issues getting to backers. 

 

All that said this really will come down more to Atari. If they can’t produce, can’t meet deadlines, it’s all just talk. People can wish whatever and hope around here but like I said don’t be surprised when someone else does a PC in a box retro console and gets it to a Wal-Mart shelf faster. 

 


 

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VCS800+Altirra Atari emulated on an Atari!

Edited by _The Doctor__

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46 minutes ago, _The Doctor__ said:

VCS800+Altirra Atari emulated on an Atari!

Ha, I was going to set up my VCS for playing with the Atari800 emulator under Linux.  Use the new 'classic' controller in 8bit games just seems to be natural for it.

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On 2/9/2021 at 3:19 PM, yrly said:

hipster crowd is huge at Wal-Mart

 

Hipster and Walmart don't go together in the same sentence, unless I am not familiar with the current usage of the word "Hipster".   I am old, but last time I checked, Walmart is filled with rejects, poor people and freaks.  Then again, last time I was inside one of those, was over a decade ago.

 

lotto-winner.jpg

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I haven't checked this thread in a while. Doesn't seem like I missed much. Glad to see some things never change though. 🌮🌮

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5 hours ago, CPUWIZ said:

 

Hipster and Walmart don't go together in the same sentence, unless I am not familiar with the current usage of the word "Hipster".   I am old, but last time I checked, Walmart is filled with rejects, poor people and freaks.  Then again, last time I was inside one of those, was over a decade ago.

 

lotto-winner.jpg

Ha, from my understanding of 'Hipster', they are spoiled brats that think it's 'cool' to act like they're poor?  So maybe they do hang out in Wal-Mart, but unlike this wonderful person, they do it because they think it's neat vs shopping there because Wal-Mart has killed off any other competition and they have to.  :P

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We don't have Walmart over here, so it's always been a mystery, but a cultural icon, as much
as a great place to get good deals. Walmart did buy a UK chain, but it stayed Asda brand, 20y.

I have seen this web-site... but I think it only features the most special new-celebrity shoppers.
https://www.peopleofwalmart.com/
It's not clear to me how many of those people would be shopping for a VCS, an Amico, or a PS5.

PS5 controllers, for sure.
https://www.peopleofwalmart.com/playstation-5-wireless-controller/

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On 2/8/2021 at 10:04 AM, OCAT said:

Someone mention GameStop?  🧐 💎  I'm in

 

As a Candian 6 hours away from you I can also say that I would be a little surprised, but I do expect to see this in the Walmart glass display cases, also I would also expect to see this in Canadian Toys-R-Us and EBgames "SELECT" locations as well.

Thing worthy of note, EB games in Canada= Gamestop

 

Unfortunately due to the Pandemic, I do not see any DEMO stations EVER hitting the floors.

Do we know if walmart had pre-ordered atari vcs consoles for their physical stores?  Walmart is the largest retailer for video games so Atari SA would want to be there but that would be up to the retailer.

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32 minutes ago, mr_me said:

Do we know if walmart had pre-ordered atari vcs consoles for their physical stores?  Walmart is the largest retailer for video games so Atari SA would want to be there but that would be up to the retailer.

I think we can safely conclude Wal-Mart has not done that.  If they had, they would have ordered a sufficient quantity that the 10,000 made for the IndieGoGo backers would not have been the struggle that it clearly was.  

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Just my 2 cents.

 

It's popular to hate on this thing. I can't tell you how many times I read that this unit would never even come out before its launch. Well, it did. The haters were wrong.

you have to be able to see both sides, people hate on shit when its fashionable. A fair amount of that was going on. And, they had some issues getting the vcs out to people, so some of that falls on them. But now that its out, that shit is over with. Lets just see some gameplay video at this point. 

These are just my thoughts as a casual atari player.

Edited by Draxxon
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3 hours ago, Draxxon said:

Just my 2 cents.

 

It's popular to hate on this thing. I can't tell you how many times I read that this unit would never even come out before its launch. Well, it did. The haters were wrong.

you have to be able to see both sides, people hate on shit when its fashionable. A fair amount of that was going on. And, they had some issues getting the vcs out to people, so some of that falls on them. But now that its out, that shit is over with. Lets just see some gameplay video at this point. 

These are just my thoughts as a casual atari player.

Ah yes, none of us haters would have anything to talk about if it wasn't "fashionable" to hate on it. 🙄 Granted, you can say that when you ignore the various other flaws pointed out about it, but that must be "hate" because you don't agree with it.

 

If you want to watch gameplay videos of PC games, then there are thousands of people out there streaming that on Twitch and YouTube, providing far superior gameplay & visual quality than the VCS can manage (even with hardware mods). 

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