Laser Squad - 64KB & VBXE

[xxl]

Atari 800XL port of Laser Squad by MariuszW:

 

 

 

Strategies doesn't have a rich representation on Atari, we missed a lot... https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Laser_Squad

 

Fortunately, MariuszW version has more scenario than the original !!! Question: will Christmas come earlier this year? ?

 

Technically, the game runs on a standard Atari 800XL, on the video is a version with colored graphics for VBXE ?

 

Bravo MariuszW, another HIT !!!

 

Edited November 26, 2021 by xxl

[youxia]

ZX Spectrum's best game (and all the micro-era's in general)...better late then never, eh

[Rybags]

Looks good and nice to see some more VBXE enhanced software coming out.

[Gunstar]

A great example of how the port of 'Attack of the Petscii Robots" for the Atari 8-bit should have been done (that is NOT in high-res character mode, but high-res bitmap, like the Apple II version, with NTSC artifacting and/or with P/M underlays-so PAL has color too). Maybe a VBXE version is in order at least?

 

 

Edited November 26, 2021 by Gunstar

[Irgendwer]

1 hour ago, Gunstar said:

A great example of how the port of 'Attack of the Petscii Robots" for the Atari 8-bit should have been done

No, not really.

- PMG distribution cannot be guaranteed over the needed range and David doesn't liked the backdrops forming a colored halo in coarse grid, BTW: PMGs are fully in use to spice up the status area and save badly needed chars

- yes, going the bitmap route you could create enough tiles appropriate for artifacting (which I even don't like and only helps NTSC), but this means dropping the 48k Atari800 support

- for the money of a VBXE you could buy a C64 and even get the better music. How much do you would pay for a VBXE version?

- do you really like the character of the Apple II more than the one of the Atari version?

 

While the game play is fully intact and you can even use a SNES controller, I wonder if those who critique the production, actually play or will play the game or just like to boast with a presentation on the Atari, which other platforms can do better anyway...

 

Let me say it vice versa:

"Albert" has very nice and colorful graphics, but due to variance and depth of play I would prefer a round of "Petscii Robots" anytime.

 

or

 

Does it matter, if the falling blocks in Tetris are colored or not?

 

Let's see how the standard version of "Laser Squad" will look like...

[Gunstar]

1 hour ago, Irgendwer said:

No, not really.

- PMG distribution cannot be guaranteed over the needed range and David doesn't liked the backdrops forming a colored halo in coarse grid, BTW: PMGs are fully in use to spice up the status area and save badly needed chars

- yes, going the bitmap route you could create enough tiles appropriate for artifacting (which I even don't like and only helps NTSC), but this means dropping the 48k Atari800 support

- for the money of a VBXE you could buy a C64 and even get the better music. How much do you would pay for a VBXE version?

- do you really like the character of the Apple II more than the one of the Atari version?

 

While the game play is fully intact and you can even use a SNES controller, I wonder if those who critique the production, actually play or will play the game or just like to boast with a presentation on the Atari, which other platforms can do better anyway...

 

Let me say it vice versa:

"Albert" has very nice and colorful graphics, but due to variance and depth of play I would prefer a round of "Petscii Robots" anytime.

 

or

 

Does it matter, if the falling blocks in Tetris are colored or not?

 

Let's see how the standard version of "Laser Squad" will look like...

-As PMG use, yeah, I forgot about the status area. As far as what David likes or doesn't, it's his game he can control and his purgative, but it doesn't mean he is right or knows what's best or what people would like best on the Atari version.

 

-Again poor implementation based one's personal preference regarding artifacting, and not surprising since it wasn't ever used in your part of the world. And dropping 48K support for the stock 800 in this day and age effects a minority, especially since many 800 owners have an Incognito at this point. A poor choice by money grubbing software houses that held the Atari back from the quality of other brand 8-bit computer's games that had 64K as the lowest denominator instead of a 48K limit. It was stupid then and stupid now, at least two versions should be included then like with the original Mercenary 48/64K if 48K compatibility is felt so vital. Look at all the other home-brews and ports the last couple decades that finally ignored the 48K and even 64K barriers without much complaint from the community and generally praise that they avoided the 48k lowest common denominator as well as the use of extended memory. A poor excuse to me, every time.

 

Even the C128 gets a special version instead of having to "settle" for the C64 version and they (for obvious memory constraints) told the C16 users to "stuff it" and upgrade to 64K to use the Plus/4 version instead of attempting a 16K version. There are probably more users out there with just 16K 400 and 600XL's than there are 800 users, and versions for them were also ignored. Again like with the C16 this is understandable with so little memory it just can't be pulled off reasonably well, but if all those users are ignored then what is a few more who only have 48K?

 

And the Apple version even has a mimicked character version for those who might prefer it over a artifact color version. Someone is doing a TRS-80 Coco conversion using high-res bitmap 64K and artifact colors based off the Apple version right now, I guess I'll just have to buy that version when it's finished since I have a Coco now.

 

-Obviously you haven't paid attention to the price of C64's (or most any vintage 8-bit these days) as I couldn't get a working C64 for less than twice the price of a VBXE. Then I'd need a disk drive too or other modern alternative at least. The VBXE is a MUCH cheaper solution. I was actually going to purchase a C64 a couple months ago as a second alternative to my Atari 8-bit monopoly in my home, but after seeing the outrageous prices, even for non-working and/or poor cosmetic ones I started looking at other vintage 8-bit micros and found a near-mint cosmetically and working TRS-80 Coco 2 for less than the cost of a VBXE! So the Coco is my Atari alternative instead of C64 due only to the ridiculous prices for a C64 that is anything but rare, but still people want as much or more for it as brands that sold a mere fraction of the units of a C64!

 

-No, I don't prefer the Apple II character over the Atari character, but I'd rather have it and the bit-mapped graphics than Atari character mode and a slightly better looking character. An easy choice for me.

 

-And now for my personal preference: I don't care about using an NES controller, I hate them. I'd rather be able to use one of my Joy2B+ enhanced joysticks if it's about keyboard vs. controller.

 

-Albert or Petscii Robots? Again, it certainly comes down to personal preference and yes, being an artist and very much visually oriented color is always better, IMHO. And "game play" is a matter of preference too, personally, I'd much rather have smooth scrolling and consider the lack thereof a detriment to "game play." My idea of making all game play better all around. 

 

-Yes! it makes a difference, to me personally, if Tetris has color or not, color of course! And if I had to choose between buying a higher priced color version to a B/W version, I would. If such a circumstance existed.

Edited November 26, 2021 by Gunstar

[Luke210]

Stop teasing us... just release this game already  ?

[xxl]

  

1 hour ago, Irgendwer said:

Let's see how the standard version of "Laser Squad" will look like...

 

 

Standard Hi-res and Lo-res (from: 06:08)
Lo-res graphic was made by PG

 

I don't know why the voice is out of sync - better mute it

 

Edited November 26, 2021 by xxl

[Thelen]

This is a good Atari year ?

[Jetboot Jack]

The multicolour version looks really nice!

 

     sTeVE

[Irgendwer]

3 hours ago, Gunstar said:

-As PMG use, yeah, I forgot about the status area. As far as what David likes or doesn't, it's his game he can control and his purgative, but it doesn't mean he is right or knows what's best or what people would like best on the Atari version.

 

Yes and that somebody forgets something is very often the case, but doesn't help when you have to come up with a complete picture. The current implementation is balanced between the capabilities of the machine and effort. Not more but also not less. Sure David is not always right or his taste is better than others, but I can see the position he comes from in this case. Forcing to put color into an else consistent looking game isn't necessarily an improvement but could even let look the machine weaker, while bound to other restrictions. 

 

3 hours ago, Gunstar said:

-Again poor implementation based one's personal preference regarding artifacting, and not surprising since it wasn't ever used in your part of the world. And dropping 48K support for the stock 800 in this day and age effects a minority, especially since many 800 owners have an Incognito at this point. A poor choice by money grubbing software houses that held the Atari back from the quality of other brand 8-bit computer's games that had 64K as the lowest denominator instead of a 48K limit. It was stupid then and stupid now, at least two versions should be included then like with the original Mercenary 48/64K if 48K compatibility is felt so vital. Look at all the other home-brews and ports the last couple decades that finally ignored the 48K and even 64K barriers without much complaint from the community and generally praise that they avoided the 48k lowest common denominator as well as the use of extended memory. A poor excuse to me, every time.

I see your point and would agree in the case the result would be reduction of content (e.g. like the "London"-level in "International Karate"). But while all levels are supplied and the game mechanics are fully intact my position is, that there is nothing wrong with targeting a bigger audience and have faster loading times.

 

3 hours ago, Gunstar said:

-Obviously you haven't paid attention to the price of C64's (or most any vintage 8-bit these days) as I couldn't get a working C64 for less than twice the price of a VBXE. Then I'd need a disk drive too or other modern alternative at least. The VBXE is a MUCH cheaper solution.

Seems I do not know the prices in the US, but here in Germany it isn't a problem to get a working C64 with disk drive for about € 100,- with is the same price range like an VBXE.

 

3 hours ago, Gunstar said:

-No, I don't prefer the Apple II character over the Atari character, but I'd rather have it and the bit-mapped graphics than Atari character mode and a slightly better looking character. An easy choice for me.

That's good, as I wasn't very happy with the original one and extra created the new version. What I like to say: Critics come from a position saying that there was not put any dedication or effort into the Atari port and this is just not true. The side panel is also an example as well as the reverb audio. (Interestingly the newer ports (e.g. NES, Atari 7800) also use now my character adaptation...)

A really poor implementation, as you mentioned it, would have been different...

 

3 hours ago, Gunstar said:

-And now for my personal preference: I don't care about using an NES controller, I hate them. I'd rather be able to use one of my Joy2B+ enhanced joysticks if it's about keyboard vs. controller.

Won't work. Much to few buttons.

 

3 hours ago, Gunstar said:

-Albert or Petscii Robots? Again, it certainly comes down to personal preference and yes, being an artist and very much visually oriented color is always better, IMHO. And "game play" is a matter of preference too, personally, I'd much rather have smooth scrolling and consider the lack thereof a detriment to "game play." My idea of making all game play better all around.

Sure, a lot depends on personal preference. So if you don't really care about this kind of game, why do you care anyway? And while I'm asking: Did you actually played or a least saw the game or are you just judging based on the footage?

(I have the strong impression (not based on you) that the loudest critics wouldn't play or even purchase the game anyway.)

 

Edited November 26, 2021 by Irgendwer

[Irgendwer]

3 hours ago, xxl said:

Standard Hi-res and Lo-res (from: 06:08)
Lo-res graphic was made by PG

Thank you very much. Monochrome looks good, even it has no color... ;)

[patjomki]

Well, I like the low-res version more. Mono mode is the reason why Spectrum games most of the times do not appeal to me.

[xxl]

6 minutes ago, patjomki said:

Well, I like the low-res version more. Mono mode is the reason why Spectrum games most of the times do not appeal to me.

for me personally it is the hires mono version that appeals the most ?
I like the clear figures... if this game had only purely schematic graphics it wouldn't bother it in any way because it's just a good game, even very good. Fortunately it has good graphics

[Probabilitydragon]

Awesome - fav childhood game I never owned - can’t wait for the release!

[Jacques]

Seems to be great conversion, congrats to @mariuszw! Nice to see the optional use of VBXE to enhance graphics, I love that feature (where available) ?

 

It would be awesome to have as well Times of Lore converted from C64, one day. 
 

[+MrFish]

2 hours ago, Jacques said:

It would be awesome to have as well Times of Lore converted from C64, one day. 

 

This guy looks like he has a walleye to me...

 

 

[Jacques]

52 minutes ago, MrFish said:

This guy looks like he has a walleye to me...

He's never been the same since he got trapped in 16 colours palette, they say. 

[+MrFish]

11 minutes ago, Jacques said:

He's never been the same since he got trapped in 16 colours palette, they say. 

 

I've added a few colors, to help him out...

 

 

[twh/f2]

Great news!! Laser Squad is an excellent example of A8 under-represented genre-games .... With this and other games (e.g. PoP, Stunt Car) this is bringing the Atari 8bit platform to the "Champions League" of home computers (for me this would be C64, ZX Spectrum, CPC, Amiga, ST).

 

So step by step the true gems are coming home... finally. wish this would have been the 80s...

 

 

[derSammler]

On 11/26/2021 at 5:03 PM, Gunstar said:

A great example of how the port of 'Attack of the Petscii Robots" for the Atari 8-bit should have been done (that is NOT in high-res character mode, but high-res bitmap, like the Apple II version, with NTSC artifacting and/or with P/M underlays-so PAL has color too). Maybe a VBXE version is in order at least?

First, you can always ask David for the source code and do a VBXE version instead of complaining.

 

Second, no, that is not how it should have been done. How many people having any compatible 8-bit Atari also have an VBXE installed? One per-cent maybe? He's a business man and selling the game, so he needs to make sure as many (of the already few) people as possible can run it. It's like stating the C64 version should require the SuperCPU for better performance. Sure, makes sense...

[Lord Thag]

Damn, this is one of my most wished for Speccy/c64 ports. Can't wait to try this, as you're right: outside the excellent His Dark Majesty... we don't get a lot of strategy homebrew/ports.

Great year for Atari fans for sure.

[Gunstar]

6 hours ago, derSammler said:

First, you can always ask David for the source code and do a VBXE version instead of complaining.

 

Second, no, that is not how it should have been done. How many people having any compatible 8-bit Atari also have an VBXE installed? One per-cent maybe? He's a business man and selling the game, so he needs to make sure as many (of the already few) people as possible can run it. It's like stating the C64 version should require the SuperCPU for better performance. Sure, makes sense...

All I said was MAYBE a VBXE port should be done. One very short sentence at the end that had nothing to do with the rest of my post. Take a reading comprehension course pal.

Edited November 29, 2021 by Gunstar

[_The Doctor__]

6 minutes ago, Gunstar said:

All I said was MAYBE a VBXE port should be done. One very short sentence at the end that had nothing to do with the rest of my post. Take a reading comprehension course pal.

ah but this his how it seems to be... happening more and more often... at least you called it straight away instead of getting sucked into a multi part post frenzy making all involved look bad as I have in the past... that sort of thing can cost you! Kudos for the fast catch, tossing that little slider into the damaged ball box! And yes that was a foul ball!

Edited November 29, 2021 by _The Doctor__

[Gunstar]

On 11/26/2021 at 4:09 PM, Irgendwer said:

Won't work. Much to few buttons.

 

Sure, a lot depends on personal preference. So if you don't really care about this kind of game, why do you care anyway? And while I'm asking: Did you actually played or a least saw the game or are you just judging based on the footage?

(I have the strong impression (not based on you) that the loudest critics wouldn't play or even purchase the game anyway.)

 

I only feel the need to reply to these last two responses:

 

What NES controller are you referring too? Do you mean SNES (which I don't mind) as the only NES controller I know of has only 2 buttons, so a Joy2B+ should work fine, but there is also a reason for the "+" on the end of what was Joy2B; the "+" refers to more than two buttons possible. I did the mod on a Sega Genesis/Megadrive 3 button controller and all three buttons work if the game supports them, like the hacked version of Star Trek Strategic Operations Simulator. Others have modified 6 button Sega controllers, IIRC.

 

Yes, I have played the game, I purchased the Atari version to support The 8-bit Guy (who I am a subscriber too) even after seeing what it was like in his video. And I DO like this sort of game, but usually I much prefer them when they have smooth scrolling, the Atari version doesn't. Yes I know due to character based graphics most version don't, but that is why bit-map is better if the machine can handle it, the game was originally done on a PET which doesn't have anything but character graphics. That's fine for any 8-bits that are like that. And other versions changed because the computer could do bit-map graphics and have poor character modes. But even so, I am enjoying the game very much, but I just wish the graphics were better like other versions, which the Atari is perfectly capable of doing if the programmer is willing to go one better and not settle and willing to use more than 48K. 

 

Also, I did watch The 8-bit Guy's videos of Petscii Robots, not just the Atari one, but every single version that he has released a game for and some still being worked on. I know exactly how the programmers decided to do it on every version released. I saw them all and he also explains WHY (with visualizations) each version was done how it was done. So I know it could have been done better, the way some other versions were done.

 

I would like to point out, as others have done in the past many times, in regards to games requiring more than 48K or even 64K, or in regions with NTSC vs. PAL and only one regional version exists (I think even you have used this "excuse" under the right circumstances in the past. I apologize if not you and I'm thinking of someone else) for those that only have stock machines: There is ALWAYS emulation. Though I can't stand emulation myself and only use Altirra for utility purposes with Rastaconverter. Also, most people that I am familiar with on AA 8-bit forums and others I frequent that own 800's also own another 64K or greater Atari XL/XE.

Edited November 29, 2021 by Gunstar