With none of the required experience...

[clh333]

I have some Atari ST and one XL800 but never have had any of the Atari game machines - just didn't play many games, since game consoles weren't around when I was growing up.  I was reading the thread from hizzy titled What's your "daily driver"? but instead of jumping in there I thought I would start with a related question:  Which Atari game machine should I go after, and why?

 

I would rank my priorities as: 

   1) picture quality

   2) reliability

   3) breadth of options

   4) ease of maintenance

   5) playability

 

A sharp, stable picture is a sine qua non. Probably anything can be modded but knowing nothing about the available mods I'd like to start with a machine that won't require modding or recapping immediately.  When I got my XL recently I didn't know enough to realize that not just any Atari game cartridge could be played on any Atari machine with a cartridge slot.  I still don't know which machines can play what but I gather that the 2600 has the most games written for it.  It happened (through dumb luck) that my XL's board was socketed; if there is that sort of advantage one machine over another then that would be good to know.

 

Let's face it:  You're never going to be reading my high score here.  But I don't know the difference between a "heavy sixer" and a "junior" so I figured I'd ask the experts.

 

Whadday say, guys and gals?

 

-CH-

 

 

[toiletunes]

I'd look for a 4 switch woodgrain 2600. It's probably the most common model. There shouldn't be any compatibility issues with any 2600 games, and the chips are socketed. It will be RF output only (unles someone modded it) but that's true of all 2600 consoles.

[MrTrust]

Well, if you're an ST guy, literally anything you get will have that beat for reliability and ease of maintenance.  For my money, the 800 XL is pound for pound the best machine to have for Atari gaming.  I didn't get one until I was in my mid 20s, so no nostalgia attached there for what that's worth.

 

Maybe I'm lucky, but I've never had an Atari machine give me a serious problem, and I've had several of them.  If you're looking to get into 2600 stuff, the 7800 is the way to go.  In my experience, they're as reliable as anything else, they have few compatibility issues, and there's a whole extra library of hands you have access to.  Funky proprietary PSU, though, so that's a downside.

 

Picture is another story.  I would never mod an old Atari machine for the sake of picture quality.  I want the picture to look a little crappy, but I don't find it looks bad even on an HDTV through RF.  Definitely as good as any legit 2600 I've ever had.

[fiddlepaddle]

There are many games on several consoles that are REALLY fun, but not necessarily that pretty...I would suggest maybe putting less emphasis on picture quality in favor of great game play for these older games, or you will be missing out.

[Keatah]

18 hours ago, clh333 said:

I have some Atari ST and one XL800 but never have had any of the Atari game machines - just didn't play many games, since game consoles weren't around when I was growing up.  I was reading the thread from hizzy titled What's your "daily driver"? but instead of jumping in there I thought I would start with a related question:  Which Atari game machine should I go after, and why?

 

I would rank my priorities as: 

   1) picture quality

   2) reliability

   3) breadth of options

   4) ease of maintenance

   5) playability

Well I'm sure it's not exactly what ya'wanna hear, but, I have to vote for a modern small form factor PC stuffed with top-of-the-line emulators. Or something like a small set-top-box.

 

1- Picture quality is rock solid and stays that way over years, decades even. And you can dial it in to the original harsh razor sharp pixels or a fuzzy NTSC RF style image. And anywhere in between. It's all in the digital domain. So customization is a natural extension right from within the image source itself, the generating emulator.

 

2- Emulation will be perfectly reliable over the years. And if hardware ever fails it can be readily replaced without ebay or thrift-store hunts.

 

3- Tons of options and ways and methods of play exist with emulators. And you have savestates and debug capabilities, screenshots and rewind. Not to mention a ton of custom controller choices and a variety of host platforms. Cheats and the ability to pause is good too. Don't forget portability. With a Windows 10/11 machine, everyone has more than the basics necessary to enjoy this fantastic way of playing. A way of playing we could only dream about as kids.

 

4- Couldn't be easier. All you do is make a backup every year or so and be sure the PC is running smoothly - a no brainer these days. There is no fucking around with screwdrivers and soldering irons. 'Scopes and meters begone! PC maintenance is all modular plug-in stuff. Or disposable entirely

 

5- Emulation is pretty good once you get everything set-up. Some controller choices or mapping options can be finicky however. Sometimes.. But locating the game(s) you wanna play is uber convenient. And collecting them would be even easier! And you can keep your game documentation on the same system, always at the ready.

Edited December 6, 2021 by Keatah

[clh333]

Thanks to all of the respondents; you have given me much to think about.  I'll post back when I decide.

 

-CH-

[Skippy B. Coyote]

If you're looking to get the best picture quality out of an unmodified Atari 2600 system (assuming you'll be playing on a CRT TV using the built-in RCA cable with a female RCA to male coaxial adapter) I'd recommend either of the 6 switch systems, a Light Sixer or Heavy Sixer. In my personal experience the 6 switch models tend to have brighter and more vibrant colors than the 4 switch ones or an Atari 7800, and a bit cleaner RF signal too.

 

That said, the difference in picture quality isn't enormous or anything so I'd say go with whatever Atari 2600 system you like the looks of and can find affordably from a reliable seller who guarantees it to work properly. The important thing is really just having a properly working system to get you started, because if you end up liking the 2600 I can pretty much guarantee you'll end up with several different ones before too long

 

[clh333]

Just a quick update:  I decided to acquire a sixer, as some of you suggested, but to wait until after Xmas when the market slowed down a little.  Yesterday the unit arrived; a Taiwan six that came with a joystick, cheap PSU and three games. 

 

Unfortunately the packing was lacking and the PSU was destroyed.  I'm now looking for a replacement and I know from other posts on this board that not all power supplies, Atari or 3rd-party, are reliable.  Does anyone have a recommendation or warning about ones to avoid?

 

Thanks again for all your help!

 

-CH-

[christo930]

On 12/5/2021 at 7:53 AM, clh333 said:

I have some Atari ST and one XL800 but never have had any of the Atari game machines - just didn't play many games, since game consoles weren't around when I was growing up.  I was reading the thread from hizzy titled What's your "daily driver"? but instead of jumping in there I thought I would start with a related question:  Which Atari game machine should I go after, and why?

 

I would rank my priorities as: 

   1) picture quality

   2) reliability

   3) breadth of options

   4) ease of maintenance

   5) playability

 

A sharp, stable picture is a sine qua non. Probably anything can be modded but knowing nothing about the available mods I'd like to start with a machine that won't require modding or recapping immediately.  When I got my XL recently I didn't know enough to realize that not just any Atari game cartridge could be played on any Atari machine with a cartridge slot.  I still don't know which machines can play what but I gather that the 2600 has the most games written for it.  It happened (through dumb luck) that my XL's board was socketed; if there is that sort of advantage one machine over another then that would be good to know.

 

Let's face it:  You're never going to be reading my high score here.  But I don't know the difference between a "heavy sixer" and a "junior" so I figured I'd ask the experts.

 

Whadday say, guys and gals?

 

-CH-

 

 

 

Probably an Atari 7800 as that will give you the most amount of games and most of the games are not just clones of some other game (like the 5200 in comparison to the 8-bit line).  

Re-capping is rarely necessary on old consoles and computers. 

 

You are never going to get HD video out of any of these old systems. They are very low resolution devices, well under the limits of NTSC.  I have found that as long as you keep the channel switch clean, video output quality is pretty good.  But I also play (when) using real hardware on an NTSC CRT television.  IMHO, these game systems absolutely do not benefit in any way that makes the time and expense and modifications (of the plastic) worth doing it.  The 7800, for example runs most games at 160 pixels across and 240 horizontal lines.  If the machine is in good shape and you are using a good cable, the 7800 outputs pretty good video.  Same with the 2600 Junior.  I modded my junior with the AV mod many, many years ago, about the turn of the century and I undid that mod before drilling any holes.  It just wasn't worth it.  There are people who claim they can see the difference, but I can't.  No matter what you do, you can't beat emulation in terms of picture quality.

 

 

On 1/9/2022 at 6:50 AM, clh333 said:

Just a quick update:  I decided to acquire a sixer, as some of you suggested, but to wait until after Xmas when the market slowed down a little.  Yesterday the unit arrived; a Taiwan six that came with a joystick, cheap PSU and three games. 

 

Unfortunately the packing was lacking and the PSU was destroyed.  I'm now looking for a replacement and I know from other posts on this board that not all power supplies, Atari or 3rd-party, are reliable.  Does anyone have a recommendation or warning about ones to avoid?

 

Thanks again for all your help!

 

-CH-

Whatever you buy, make sure you don't leave it plugged in.  Otherwise the power supply just sits there baking for no reason.  I just unplug mine when it's not in use.  I do the same thing with the dedicated CRT I use.  It's one of the newer TVs (well, new for me, as in the 90s) that never truly turns off.

 

Edited January 11, 2022 by christo930
clarification

[Keatah]

17 minutes ago, christo930 said:

No matter what you do, you can't beat emulation in terms of picture quality.

That's right. There's the awesome stability and color saturation. And some emulators gots NTSC effects like Stella and MAME. You can dial in some fuzzies and artifacts, or you can get razor sharp pixels. And it all works on modern displays, in 16:9 or 4:3 aspects, or anywhere in between. You can get the incredible color gamut and saturation, keep it vintage, or go overboard!

 

You can't beat emulation for versatility, reliability, convenience, and elegance. Yes it takes some knowledge to get going and to customize everything so its perfectly suited to your needs and preferences. But customizing you can do. And lots of it. Much more than than with the old consoles.

 

Emulation hardware is readily available everywhere. And easily replaceable should the worst happen. There's great support for all the vintage consoles. And several ways to go about it, like 100% software, or hardware FPGA.

 

On 12/5/2021 at 6:53 AM, clh333 said:

I would rank my priorities as: 

   1) picture quality

   2) reliability

   3) breadth of options

   4) ease of maintenance

   5) playability

Software Emulation will cover you on all those points in spades and droves. With #5 taking the most effort because of controllers. I personally hate mucking with them, so tedious and boring, but it is a necessary pain point to get through. That is improving however and goes smoothly if you are aware of all the choices available.

 

Picture quality is extraordinarily stable over the years, decades even. So is reliability - One of my emulation rigs is 20 years old and I replaced 2 plug-in components in it. Eventually I'll retire it. So whatever may fail is easily replaced with parts from just about everywhere. Options? Yikes! I don't know where to begin!

[Brainworm]

I can go all in on emulation except on paddle games, which are a pretty significant part of what makes the Atari 2600 and earlier systems unique. The issues are:

 

1) There's no good way to emulate paddle controls on a standard gamepad, and no modern gamepad that has a paddle or spinner.

2) Even with e.g. 2600-daptor, iCode, or stelladaptor, there's a combination of jitter and latency that makes paddle games basically unplayable. Stella has never really handled paddles well.

3) Navigating an emulator UI with paddle controllers is just horrific.

 

So if you like paddle games -- Warlords, Super Breakout, and Kaboom! are probably the best of them -- there's no substitute for hardware (except maybe FPGA). But a MISTer setup is expensive right now and IDK if all the hacks in place to support paddle controllers end up introduce all the same problems you get with software-based emulation.

 

If you're skittish about an old console, you can get a cartridge-modded Flashback 2 for like $100, and then get a Harmony cart for another $40 or $50. That and some Best paddles would take you to $200, all in. That also gets you composite out (instead of RF), and Flashback picture quality is really very good -- a brighter, more saturated image than I get out of my (recapped and A/V modded) 4-switch Vader.

 

 

 

[Keatah]

2 hours ago, Brainworm said:

1) There's no good way to emulate paddle controls on a standard gamepad, and no modern gamepad that has a paddle or spinner.

I don't mind using the mouse too much for paddles.

 

2 hours ago, Brainworm said:

2) Even with e.g. 2600-daptor, iCode, or stelladaptor, there's a combination of jitter and latency that makes paddle games basically unplayable. Stella has never really handled paddles well.

That's right. Jitter isn't a problem. But there is lag. I can even see it. And there's this heavy feeling to the on-screen object like it has extra momentum if you try to quickly reverse direction or stop. Rubbery perhaps.

 

3 hours ago, Brainworm said:

3) Navigating an emulator UI with paddle controllers is just horrific.

Of course. Paddles should not even be used to navigate menus beyond a couple of items, let alone an entire user interface. So that's not really a problem.

 

[clh333]

I obtained a replacement power supply, arrived today,  and gave the 2600 a test drive.  First thing I noticed was that it took a long time for the unit to power up:  something between 30 and 60 seconds, I would guess.  Is this normal, or is it indicative of a problem?  Screen image on a 20" Toshiba LCD TV was good, better than I expected; output was on CH3.  Switches seemed a little crusty but I'm guessing some DeOxIt can help.

 

Next I need to find a manual for the console and some games.  Thanks again, all.

-CH-

[Keatah]

The console should snap on instantly. No loading. No delays.

 

Is your television syncing right away?

Edited January 13, 2022 by Keatah

[clh333]

Well, the TV is being used as a monitor for the 2600, an 800XL and a Radio Shack Color Computer.  For the 800XL and the CoCo it acquires the signal almost immediately on power up.  The CoCo also outputs RF.

 

-CH-

[christo930]

5 hours ago, clh333 said:

obtained a replacement power supply, arrived today,  and gave the 2600 a test drive.  First thing I noticed was that it took a long time for the unit to power up:  something between 30 and 60 seconds, I would guess.  Is this normal, or is it indicative of a problem?  Screen image on a 20" Toshiba LCD TV was good, better than I expected; output was on CH3.  Switches seemed a little crusty but I'm guessing some DeOxIt can help.

 

Next I need to find a manual for the console and some games.  Thanks again, all.

 

-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

 

Well, the TV is being used as a monitor for the 2600, an 800XL and a Radio Shack Color Computer.  For the 800XL and the CoCo it acquires the signal almost immediately on power up.  The CoCo also outputs RF.

 

-CH-

I'm a bit confused here.  Assuming your TV is working/warmed up whatever it has to do, you are needing to wait 30 to 60 seconds?  For what?  When you turn on the Atari with a game in it, it should just turn on and output video immediately.  This is definitely a problem assuming the atari was not on and producing video and you just couldn't see it because of TV issues.. 

 

If it were me, I would turn the TV on and make sure it is working and warmed up or whatever it needs to do, basically that it is ready to display. Then, without turning it off, attach the 2600 and turn it on.  If you are not getting video out of the atari within a second or two (allowing for the detection of an NTSC signal and then the switching to the NTSC signal by the tv), turn your Atari off.  You have a problem.

[clh333]

Yes, I agree, I have a problem.  The long delay but eventual display suggests to me that one or more capacitors are out of spec.  Having never taken one apart and having no schematics I really wouldn't know where to start; I would have to shotgun everything.  

 

It doesn't seem worth it and I think I will return the unit.

 

-CH-

[Thomas Jentzsch]

On 1/12/2022 at 2:51 PM, Brainworm said:

2) Even with e.g. 2600-daptor, iCode, or stelladaptor, there's a combination of jitter and latency that makes paddle games basically unplayable. Stella has never really handled paddles well.

Can describe this in a bit more detail? There shouldn't be any more jitter using Stella and a 2600-daptor than using the same paddles on a real console. And if there is lag, then this results most likely from your monitor, not Stella.

[vcsrocks]

7 hours ago, clh333 said:

Yes, I agree, I have a problem.  The long delay but eventual display suggests to me that one or more capacitors are out of spec.  Having never taken one apart and having no schematics I really wouldn't know where to start; I would have to shotgun everything.  

 

It doesn't seem worth it and I think I will return the unit.

 

-CH-

I have a TV/monitor in my workshop that takes forever and a minute to actually sync with a 2600 JR.  Everything else works fine with it.

 

For a while I thought the problem was with the console, but at the end the TV just did not like the signal coming out of it.

 

This should be very easy to test:  just turn on the console and, even without video, get a game started.  Not just inserted but the actual game-play started.  You can check how to do this with the image on first, but usually it involves pressing the joystick button or select on the console.

 

Once the image appears, if the game is playing, the console was likely running fine all along.  There may still be a problem with the RF circuit, but that should be easier to figure out.

[Brainworm]

Just now, Thomas Jentzsch said:

Can describe this in a bit more detail? There shouldn't be any more jitter using Stella and a 2600-daptor than using the same paddles on a real console. And if there is lag, then this results most likely from your monitor, not Stella.

I can send you some video, if that helps.

 

I spent some time over the weekend fiddling with RetroPie to find a way to play Kaboom!, going back and forth between Retropie w/ different versions of Stella/different paddle sensitivity and dejitter settings and my a/v modded Vader. This on the same TV, although the Vader uses composite inputs and the RetroPie uses HDMI.

 

Just in summary:

 

1) When I use my original paddles on my Vader, we'll get what I call "no" lag and "no" jitter. FWIW, these are original paddles (not e.g. AtGames/Flashback Paddles -- not that there should be a difference -- with recently-cleaned pots). I have a couple other paddle sets I can test out if that would be useful.

 

2) Using an iCode two-port adapter, there's significant paddle jitter in every 6.x major point release of Stella unless (for 6.2 and above) both dejitter and dejitter response are set pretty high (2/2 or 3/3). This creates some weird control issues (slow and sometimes erratic response to input).

 

3) Again with the iCode: Stella 6.5 and 6.6 (after the "improved analog handling" commit) have what I'll call a "dead zone" -- an area of non-responsiveness inside the ordinarily active or responsive range of the paddle controllers.

 

In other words: if you start with your Kaboom buckets on the far left side of the screen and turn the paddle knob clockwise at a steady rate, what you should see is the buckets progress to the right of the screen at a similarly steady rate (once the paddle enters the game's responsive range).

 

What actually happens: the buckets progress across the screen, stop at about the halfway point, and begin moving again once the paddle reaches some point significantly further along in its rotation.

 

I had similarly weird (but different) issues using the 2600-daptor d9 maybe 18 months ago (which is why I picked up the iCode). I don't remember exactly how those played out with different versions of Stella, though (I think I just tried the then-current lr-Stella and plain vanilla Stella instead of compiling later versions). I can mess around with these some more if that would be helpful.

 

 

[Thomas Jentzsch]

25 minutes ago, Brainworm said:

2) Using an iCode two-port adapter, there's significant paddle jitter in every 6.x major point release of Stella unless (for 6.2 and above) both dejitter and dejitter response are set pretty high (2/2 or 3/3). This creates some weird control issues (slow and sometimes erratic response to input).

Stella doesn't introduce any jitter, it only tries to suppress it. The slow reaction is the result of setting the 1st dejitter too high. The erratic response is most likely a result of very high jitter combined with a high 2nd dejitter setting, which tries to compensate the slowness of the first setting. If the jitter is really high, the compensation can "overshoot".

 

I have no iCode adapter, but what you describe cannot come from Stella. And if the paddles do not jitter on the console, then it must be the iCode adapter.

 

How does Stella react if you disable both dejitter settings? Then you see the results which the iCode adapter provides to Stella 1:1. And maybe there is a test program for you OS which you can try to see the values created.

25 minutes ago, Brainworm said:

3) Again with the iCode: Stella 6.5 and 6.6 (after the "improved analog handling" commit) have what I'll call a "dead zone" -- an area of non-responsiveness inside the ordinarily active or responsive range of the paddle controllers.

That deadzone is the result of the OS (Linux). You can disable it using evDev-joystick. 

25 minutes ago, Brainworm said:

I had similarly weird (but different) issues using the 2600-daptor d9 maybe 18 months ago (which is why I picked up the iCode). I don't remember exactly how those played out with different versions of Stella, though (I think I just tried the then-current lr-Stella and plain vanilla Stella instead of compiling later versions). I can mess around with these some more if that would be helpful.

Yes, please. I have not heard about any bad behavior of the 2600-daptors regarding paddles. After eliminating the deadzone, your paddles should work without any problems.

[Brainworm]

2 hours ago, Thomas Jentzsch said:

Stella doesn't introduce any jitter, it only tries to suppress it [...] I have not heard about any bad behavior of the 2600-daptors regarding paddles. After eliminating the deadzone, your paddles should work without any problems.

Thank you for this. Stella is a killer piece of software and I think I sound underappreciative when I complain about paddle behavior.

 

I'll get evdev-joystick installed, see what we get in the latest Stella with the iCode, 2600-daptor, and dejitter settings, and report back.

 

 

[dualcam]

4 hours ago, Brainworm said:

I can send you some video, if that helps.

 

I spent some time over the weekend fiddling with RetroPie to find a way to play Kaboom!, going back and forth between Retropie w/ different versions of Stella/different paddle sensitivity and dejitter settings and my a/v modded Vader. This on the same TV, although the Vader uses composite inputs and the RetroPie uses HDMI.

 

Just in summary:

 

1) When I use my original paddles on my Vader, we'll get what I call "no" lag and "no" jitter. FWIW, these are original paddles (not e.g. AtGames/Flashback Paddles -- not that there should be a difference -- with recently-cleaned pots). I have a couple other paddle sets I can test out if that would be useful.

 

2) Using an iCode two-port adapter, there's significant paddle jitter in every 6.x major point release of Stella unless (for 6.2 and above) both dejitter and dejitter response are set pretty high (2/2 or 3/3). This creates some weird control issues (slow and sometimes erratic response to input).

 

3) Again with the iCode: Stella 6.5 and 6.6 (after the "improved analog handling" commit) have what I'll call a "dead zone" -- an area of non-responsiveness inside the ordinarily active or responsive range of the paddle controllers.

 

In other words: if you start with your Kaboom buckets on the far left side of the screen and turn the paddle knob clockwise at a steady rate, what you should see is the buckets progress to the right of the screen at a similarly steady rate (once the paddle enters the game's responsive range).

 

What actually happens: the buckets progress across the screen, stop at about the halfway point, and begin moving again once the paddle reaches some point significantly further along in its rotation.

 

I had similarly weird (but different) issues using the 2600-daptor d9 maybe 18 months ago (which is why I picked up the iCode). I don't remember exactly how those played out with different versions of Stella, though (I think I just tried the then-current lr-Stella and plain vanilla Stella instead of compiling later versions). I can mess around with these some more if that would be helpful.

 

 

 

The dead-spot is a "feature" of the Linux OS.  There is a work-around for this on the Stella site, though seems to have been fixed in recent RetroPie.

 

My adapters have anti-jitter built in and I recommend turning off any emulator anti-jitter.  Note there is a bit of jitter on the real 2600 console, and I have tried to match that.

 

I loved playing paddle games as a kid, and have worked to make the paddle response the same with my adapters.

 

Tom

http://2600-daptor.com/

 

[Brainworm]

8 hours ago, Thomas Jentzsch said:

Stella doesn't introduce any jitter, it only tries to suppress it [...]I have not heard about any bad behavior of the 2600-daptors regarding paddles. After eliminating the deadzone, your paddles should work without any problems.

OK. I installed evdev-joystick and built the latest Stella (from git), since retropie is still on 6.0.1 (for vanilla Stella). I reset all the settings to their default values. This means that all the de-jitter settings are off.

 

Here's a video of the paddle jitter in Stella/Retropie with the 2600-daptor. It doesn't seriously affect playability, but it is constant.

Here's a video of the same paddles on the same TV, with Kaboom! running from cartridge on an a/v modded Vader (no upscaler, so the image is so-so). There's no jitter when the paddle is still and only a little visible jitter throughout its entire range of motion.

 

If it matters, the latest lr-stella has significantly less jitter. IDK anything about the differences between how vanilla Stella and the LR flavor handle input, or if Stella itself can log input in a way that's useful for this.

[Thomas Jentzsch]

I have never seen that before, really odd. The problem is, that there are at least five systems involved which all could cause the error. 

1. Raspberry Pi
2. 2600-adaptor
3. Retropie
4. Stella
5. Paddles (eliminated by test on a real console)

It would help if you could eliminate more systems. E.g. by using the iCore instead of the 2600-adpator and/or a computer instead of the Rasberry.

Edited January 15, 2022 by Thomas Jentzsch