Petscii Robots Now in Color

[Irgendwer]

59 minutes ago, Beeblebrox said:

I am struggling to find another game with keyboard controls that exhibit's the same issue.

Maybe it's the way keys are handled: AotPR uses the OS for keyboard estimation and don't uses the keyboard interrupt directly. I know that there is also an OS difference between Atari800 <-> XL.

You can easily exclude a hardware problem by poking different values to 729 in BASIC (e.g. POKE 729,20) that should shorten the delay...

[Irgendwer]

27 minutes ago, -^CrossBow^- said:

I can understand the hesitation of distros carrying something that is a single game use for the moment.

Nope, contrary to the user-port-adapter for the Commies which relies on software supporting it specifically, SNACK is (also) fully compatible to the standard joystick.

So 'all' games work with it (and even the Joy2B (up to three buttons) enhanced ones).

It also should do it's job with the VCS or other DB-9 port systems (no verification yet).

[+mytek]

2 hours ago, Beeblebrox said:

Here's the thing - my 800XL driver A8 has an AKI USB keyboard interface internally installed. It's worth pointing out that I had been testing both versions of the game on the 800XL's own keyboard, not a USB external one. However the adapter is in place in the Pokey socket all the time. So that is the only explanation. It appears to introduce this delay even on the 800XL's own keyboard.

 

2 hours ago, _The Doctor__ said:

Yes I'd say update the adapters firmware and then let @mytek know the results and contact @Stephen J. Carden as well so many adapter aki krh tk.... etc...  I'd see what they'd say

Nope not my, nor Steve's device. Not even closely related, since I developed my own firmware from scratch and Steve based his board on the original AKI firmware with some patches he applied, both of which are designed for a PS/2 keyboard and not USB. Lotharek is the one you need to contact.

 

[pixelmischief]

4 hours ago, Mrshoujo said:

It's not a play on words. It's a reference to the character set. Which is why the Atari version needs to be ATASCII Robots. I mean, come on. Why wouldn't it?

Yeah.  That's what makes it a play on words, genius.

[_The Doctor__]

so the steve and buddy device is aki based according to mytek, since they were able to patch it etc. I'd talk with him and his buddy, it would appear they understand the device a little bit... so unless lotherik just used the name and his crew didn't base it on the original- which would be super strange-...   he'd have to point you to the maker if that's the case, as it's said he's just a manufacturer/retailer...

Edited December 14, 2021 by _The Doctor__

[+mytek]

1 hour ago, _The Doctor__ said:

so the steve and buddy device is aki based according to mytek, since they were able to patch it etc. I'd talk with him and his buddy, it would appear they understand the device a little bit... so unless lotherik just used the name and his crew didn't base it on the original- which would be super strange-...   he'd have to point you to the maker if that's the case, as it's said he's just a manufacturer/retailer...

Well it's gotta be a bit more different then the name implies, since the original and Dark Versions of the AKI firmware was designed to speak PS/2 which is entirely different than the USB protocol. Possibly the USB variant was developed by DarkDK who previously had completely re-coded the PS/2 AKI firmware, so he might be the one to speak to, but I'd try Lotharek first so that he is at least aware of any issues with what he's selling.

 

[Dinadan67]

10 hours ago, Mrshoujo said:

It's not a play on words. It's a reference to the character set. Which is why the Atari version needs to be ATASCII Robots. I mean, come on. Why wouldn't it?

Because the game does not use the ATASCII charset. It is based on the PETSCII charset, even the ports.

[Beeblebrox]

7 minutes ago, Dinadan67 said:

Because the game does not use the ATASCII charset. It is based on the PETSCII charset, even the ports.

@Dinadan67  Just a quick one - I recall you have the AKI USB keyboard interface installed?  Perchance do you own a copy of this game and if so are you able to test to see if you get the 1 second lag in continuous direction movement I get as detailed earlier in this thread? 

[Dinadan67]

13 minutes ago, Beeblebrox said:

@Dinadan67  Just a quick one - I recall you have the AKI USB keyboard interface installed?  Perchance do you own a copy of this game and if so are you able to test to see if you get the 1 second lag in continuous direction movement I get as detailed earlier in this thread? 

I gave up on the AKI USB Interface, because neither Candle nor Lotharek are willing to look into the problem with the key mappings and it seems to be a dead project. But i can put it back into my 800XL and test it with Petscii Robots.

[Beeblebrox]

30 minutes ago, Dinadan67 said:

I gave up on the AKI USB Interface, because neither Candle nor Lotharek are willing to look into the problem with the key mappings and it seems to be a dead project. But i can put it back into my 800XL and test it with Petscii Robots.

@Dinadan67  Sure. (Please don't put yourself out if fiddly. I am guessing you won't need to resolder the function key signal lines back in as presumably you left these in and just disconnected the PCB itself/re-instated the Pokey when you removed the interface?)  Yeah, I know you you mean about the keymapping - I don't wanna hi-jack this thread but I noticed the other day it appears the "*" symbol isn't mapped, which is rather problematic in SpartaDosX to name a few instances! Given that Lotharek and resellers still sell the AKI USB interface it would be good to have some resolution on the issues buyers are having.

Edited December 14, 2021 by Beeblebrox

[Mrshoujo]

5 hours ago, Dinadan67 said:

Because the game does not use the ATASCII charset. It is based on the PETSCII charset, even the ports.

But it uses ATASCII characters. On the ATARI. 

[Peruchi]

16 hours ago, Beeblebrox said:

@Irgendwer  Ahh I see what you mean now re the available symbols - gotcha!

 

Strange - there is definitely almost a 1 second delay playing on my 800XL. I'll try it with my 800 in a bit.  I'll check out the Snack adapter - thanks

I got the same behaviour playing the newer version of this game in my XEGS with the TK-II interface.

 

Then I must say I have never updated the TK-II firmware since I bought it in 2017, so...my bad!

 

Anyway, I'm mentioning it just because  @mytek may have some interest in the matter.

 

As for myself, I'll try to update the firmware.

[+Stephen]

21 minutes ago, Mrshoujo said:

But it uses ATASCII characters. On the ATARI. 

The machine is capable of using custom fonts (re-defined character sets).

[+mytek]

2 hours ago, Peruchi said:

I got the same behaviour playing the newer version of this game in my XEGS with the TK-II interface.

 

Then I must say I have never updated the TK-II firmware since I bought it in 2017, so...my bad!

 

Anyway, I'm mentioning it just because  @mytek may have some interest in the matter.

 

As for myself, I'll try to update the firmware.

So now you got my ear

 

To better understand what is happening... this delay occurs when?

 

Is it a one time occurrence (like during booting), or constantly occurring?

 

[desiv]

1 hour ago, Stephen said:

The machine is capable of using custom fonts (re-defined character sets).

If the machine is using ATASCII on the Atari (I just got my 400 running and it is only 16k; 48k/52k card on the way, so I haven't tried it yet) and we wanted to keep to a play on words, then instead of Attack of the PETSCII Robots, on the Atari the name could be shortened to:

ATTACKSCII ROBOTS

 

[Beeblebrox]

5 hours ago, mytek said:

So now you got my ear

 

To better understand what is happening... this delay occurs when?

 

Is it a one time occurrence (like during booting), or constantly occurring?

 

@mytek Hi. So this is the Lotharek AKI USB interface device where there is a 1 second delay both on the A8's keyboard AND wiith external USB keyboards between holding dow left, right, up and down keys, and actually moving

[_The Doctor__]

5 hours ago, desiv said:

If the machine is using ATASCII on the Atari (I just got my 400 running and it is only 16k; 48k/52k card on the way, so I haven't tried it yet) and we wanted to keep to a play on words, then instead of Attack of the PETSCII Robots, on the Atari the name could be shortened to:

ATTACKSCII ROBOTS

 

What you say is very nice and pleasant I like it... but it is inaccurate...

The Atari character set has been remapped with PET character set and a few custom characters in the character key map... so it is indeed PETSCII on the Atari... as was stated, the characters are redefined to PET characters for all of the ports...

 

If you use your own custom character fonts and custom character mapping for a similar game... we could call in ATTACKSCII Robots for sure...

 

[desiv]

5 minutes ago, _The Doctor__ said:

What you say is very nice and pleasant I like it... but it is inaccurate...

Well, I wouldn't say what I said was inaccurate, as I started with: "If the machine is using ATASCII..."

So I wasn't saying it did use ATASCII.    

Edited December 14, 2021 by desiv

[+Nezgar]

5 hours ago, desiv said:

ATTACKSCII ROBOTS

"ATASCII OF THE PETSCII ROBOTS" ?

[_The Doctor__]

2 minutes ago, Nezgar said:

"ATASCII OF THE PETSCII ROBOTS" ?

By George, I think You've done it!

[+mytek]

53 minutes ago, Beeblebrox said:

@mytek Hi. So this is the Lotharek AKI USB interface device where there is a 1 second delay both on the A8's keyboard AND wiith external USB keyboards between holding dow left, right, up and down keys, and actually moving

I don't have this game, so I'm going to presume that it doesn't support a joystick and is using keys on the keyboard instead (W,A,S,D?). Anyway I could definitely understand the delay being associated with the USB keyboard, but not on the stock keyboard as well. Not saying you are mistaken, it's just an observation that the two should remain separate in operation, and the delay shouldn't have migrated over to the stock keyboard as well.

 

Not hearing back yet on the TK-II also having a delay, I'm guessing that it could be related to a PS/2 keyboard's characteristic of pausing if one key is held down, and then before releasing it, another is pressed at the same time, with the last key pressed overriding the previous one after the pause has subsided. And I suspect that a USB keyboard might possibly have the same exact quirk if you are seeing that happen with the AKI USB adapter. As for the stock keyboard also being affected - that sounds like poor coding. You can test the pause issue yourself on your PC by opening up notepad.

 

I remember trying to play Bomb Jack on a TK-II system via the PS/2 keyboard and it was a poor experience, which led me into investigating the problem. Inevitably I discovered that there was no way to correct for it since it's baked into the PS/2 standard. So long story short you shouldn't expect Atari games that can use the keyboard instead of a joystick to perform well on anything other than the Atari stock keyboard

 

EDIT: there might be a way to correct for this attribute of the PS/2 keyboard by reprogramming it's key repeat speed and delay before repeat aspects, which I haven't tried. However this would need to be configurable and/or have the ability to disable the alterations, thus adding an additional layer to the firmware which I don't presently have enough left over program memory in the PIC to even consider.

 

Edited December 14, 2021 by mytek

[_The Doctor__]

Having played games on PS/2 machines and usb machines.... there must be a way to configure the keyboards controller... while it's true some of the keyboards were complete crap BITD -that would have been a major issue for dang near all of the games that used the keyboard at that time as well as now... having played Unreal Tournament would have been impossible if they couldn't... and many a player used PS/2 gear at first... not all of the keyboards worked the same... so it may be time to try out a few different ones if you can.

The key should be held down and report its down for the entire time it's held... if a device is pulsing the keys according to the clock...

so when you press down a key the make code is sent and the in between device should phycally connect the Atari Keyboard matrix points and hold it down continuously until a break code is sent... if the AT/PS2 keyboard is crappy and you press the next key it might not break between keys if more than it can handle is pressed at once....  so long as the code is read and changes with keys being held down responding with the transition to the next key with the previously held key being released a middle box can handle switching the matrix-but it would needs to handle the make code without a break code. the break code simply clears the matrix so to speak. You can have issues if the keyboard insists on break code periods for a certain period of time before asserting the next make code in it's buffer.

 

here's  a link to the protocols, thought there were a crap ton of keyboards with slightly different takes on it... some being named this or that implying speed, performance response, keys at the same time.... etc etc.

 

differences in the serial device drivers and the keyboards themselves were able to keep thing at the ready reduceing rts/cts lag... consider the Atari always ready to receive the matrix, and the keyboard as being delayed at time to receive from a middle box, a driver, etc.

 

for those interested I'll include a link with the  general idea start at page 8 or 9

https://www.avrfreaks.net/sites/default/files/PS2 Keyboard.pdf

https://wiki.osdev.org/PS/2_Keyboard

 

You can find as in all protocols and implementations that different manufacturers used different chipset/drivers and matrix modifications to make them more responsive quite interesting in the control of led's and keys....

 

now what get's most people is that the press(make) and Release(break) codes allow for more than one key to be down at the same time depending on the driver and the keyboards controller. So a middle box or driver that expects  key make key break will have issues if it gets key make key make then key break key break....

 

it's a little more complex than one might expect.... now don't upload virus to the keyboard buffer etc or reassign the y and n key as being swapped...

Edited December 14, 2021 by _The Doctor__

[+mytek]

As I implied in my previous post, the standard implementation as used in virtually every PC starting with the XT, was to use the default built-in keyboard settings. And yes there are two different parameters that I also mentioned that would allow customization. Games that depended upon fast keyboard control most certainly modified these parameters. But we are talking about TK-II and AKI which use those standard keyboard defaults, and never provided the means for the user to alter them. When used as originally intended, those defaults work very well for typing in general, which is what I aimed the TK-II at, and likely the same goes for the AKI variants as well.

 

Since there is no way to speak to the PS/2 (or USB) keyboard from the Atari, you can't simply run a program to change those defaults.

 

So it would take modifying the firmware in the PIC chips (or whatever is used in the AKI USB adapter) to accept new parameters and pass them on to the keyboard. I do know how to do that, in fact my TK-II does it quite frequently to activate the LEDs.

 

But here's the deal as I already mentioned...

2 hours ago, mytek said:

...there might be a way to correct for this attribute of the PS/2 keyboard by reprogramming it's key repeat speed and delay before repeat aspects, which I haven't tried. However this would need to be configurable and/or have the ability to disable the alterations, thus adding an additional layer to the firmware which I don't presently have enough left over program memory in the PIC to even consider.

 

For the few situations where the default keyboard parameters are a problem, I'm not going to worry about it

 

Instead why don't you guys ask David to add Joystick control to his game

 

[Dinadan67]

On 12/14/2021 at 9:53 AM, Beeblebrox said:

@Dinadan67  Just a quick one - I recall you have the AKI USB keyboard interface installed?  Perchance do you own a copy of this game and if so are you able to test to see if you get the 1 second lag in continuous direction movement I get as detailed earlier in this thread? 

I tried the original and the enhanced version of the game, there is no lag on my machine. I tested with both the internal keyboard as well as with my wireless USB keyboard. My 800XL is PAL with NTSC-Antic running at 60hz. 

Edited December 16, 2021 by Dinadan67

[Beeblebrox]

24 minutes ago, Dinadan67 said:

I tried the original and the enhanced version of the game, there is no lag on my machine. I tested with both the internal keyboard as well as with my wireless USB keyboard. My 800XL is PAL with NTSC-Antic running at 60hz. 

@Dinadan67  Interesting. Thanks for testing. So to clarify the lag on my 800XL is only when you hold any direction down to continually move in said direction - where the continual movement is delayed for approx 1 second before you start moving. Then the same occurs if you want to then change to move continually in another direction. However where you press a directional key once to move one square/tile in a direction you get no lag and move one step instantly.

 

Whereas on my 800 there is no lag at any stage.

 

Of course the other difference between your's and my 800XL setup's is that I have a PAL machine with PAL Antic, (50hz) whereas your PAL machine has an NTSC Antic onboard - but I don't think that would have a bearing on this behaviour (?)

Edited December 16, 2021 by Beeblebrox