Raiders of the Lost Ark for the 5200

[Keatah]

I liked the Syd Mead retro-futurism the 5200 styling conveyed. Would be at home in a home that garaged a Sentinel. And the tech of combining power and RF into one cable made it all the more exciting to a geeky kid learning about electronics.

 

1 hour ago, MrTrust said:

Definitely, the controller made a lot of difference on games other than Star Raiders.  Space Shuttle: A Journey Into Space took full advantage of keypad.  Some of the sports games did as well.  Countermeasure used it; Defender used it.  It wasn't used as well as on Colecovision or Intellivision, but it does work better than the keyboard for a lot of things.

Never could get used to the slushy controllers. Always liked the crisp definitive action of a simple 4+1 "digital" joystick. And I unequivocally say Intellivision made very good use their keypad. Likely the best of the pre-NES era.

[MrTrust]

10 hours ago, Greg2600 said:

That said, while I love getting another 8-bit conversion, I don't see the point for Raiders.  If it's literally the 2600 version.

 

Well, having the controls on a single joystick isn't nothing.  Plus, it's just cool to have it on there.  But, I can't imagine it being anywhere near the top of anyone's list of potential projects.

 

10 hours ago, Keatah said:

Never could get used to the slushy controllers. Always liked the crisp definitive action of a simple 4+1 "digital" joystick. And I unequivocally say Intellivision made very good use their keypad. Likely the best of the pre-NES era.

 

I think it's safe to say you're not in the minority on that one.  There are times where the "digital" joystick is definitively better. It's a lot more limited, though.  For instance, Missile Command still ain't quite the same game on 5200, since you don't have the three bases, but on A8, it's not even close.

 

The thing is, it does self-center.  It just doesn't to it consistently and accurately.  So, you had some games that had the dead zone really big to compensate for that, so what you end up with is a joystick with a really long throw if you're going from left to right or up to down, but your natural instinct is not to jam it way back and forth like that, even though, when you're playing something like Pac-Man, you basically have to.  You have to override what you're used to doing.  If you do, it works well enough.

 

It's a shame, because if more games had been built specifically for the controller, I think it would have a much better reputation.  Gorf showed this possibility.  You can zip from one side of the screen to the other in the blink of an eye, which is a big advantage in a game like that, though it's very easy to overcorrect when you need to dodge a projectile and get yourself killed.  You just can't do that with the old sticks.  Maybe you say "who cares?" because the arcade wasn't like that, but you could imagine lots of different games where that kind of needle threading precision could make for really good gameplay.  

[+Cafeman]

10 hours ago, Greg2600 said:

  That said, while I love getting another 8-bit conversion, I don't see the point for Raiders.  If it's literally the 2600 version.

Exactly!  It was always fascinating to see how other game system ports would look, if there had been more 5200 ports of 2600 adventure style games like Raiders, or Superman (or Adventure...), the 5200 would have been all that more appealing.  

 

But why devote all the effort to converting the logic and 2600 kernel into 5200 Antic 4 or a bitmapped mode, and end up with the same thing?    5200 has a tremendous amount more graphical and sound ability than what even gifted Howard could accomplish on 2600, so why not get an interested pixel artist to go wild drawing a bunch of awesome Antic 4 screens. All the screens, characters, and creatures should be reinvented, and use RMT to have RotLA soundtrack strains playing, and there are some gameplay tweaks that could be made.   Well, it's fun to imagine it. 

[Greg2600]

1 hour ago, Cafeman said:

Exactly!  It was always fascinating to see how other game system ports would look, if there had been more 5200 ports of 2600 adventure style games like Raiders, or Superman (or Adventure...), the 5200 would have been all that more appealing.  

 

But why devote all the effort to converting the logic and 2600 kernel into 5200 Antic 4 or a bitmapped mode, and end up with the same thing?    5200 has a tremendous amount more graphical and sound ability than what even gifted Howard could accomplish on 2600, so why not get an interested pixel artist to go wild drawing a bunch of awesome Antic 4 screens. All the screens, characters, and creatures should be reinvented, and use RMT to have RotLA soundtrack strains playing, and there are some gameplay tweaks that could be made.   Well, it's fun to imagine it. 

Right I mean, I'd rather see a Raiders upgrade, or even better, a new platformer in the vein of Monty's Revenge or Tutankham, with Raiders "graphics" (under LucasFilm radar of course).  But that's going to be some work. 

[+Cafeman]

23 minutes ago, Greg2600 said:

Right I mean, I'd rather see a Raiders upgrade, or even better, a new platformer in the vein of Monty's Revenge or Tutankham, with Raiders "graphics" (under LucasFilm radar of course).  But that's going to be some work. 

True, it might be more successful to make an entirely different Raiders game, but to me, its more interesting to make it an enhanced port of Howards idea. There are many interesting ideas that could be used without reinventing the game, and staying somewhat faithful to the 2600 game.  More gun and whip action would be fun. Less tetse flies, less thief. Less abstractness.  Faster movement and more fun action,  but still have the same basic concepts and puzzles as Howard's game. And add the boulder. You could really expand the marketplace and add slightly more complex mechanics for finding items. 

[Atariperson23]

An upgrade sounds like a good idea. But the keypad controls (which are very hard to utilize) might be a problem for a true upgrade or a in-depth platformer.

[A Black Falcon]

22 hours ago, MrTrust said:

 

Duuuuuuuuude.  You're talking about a massively time consuming and expensive project for a system with a much smaller fanbase, and the homebrew scene for it is basically one guy at this point.  What's the point unless there are people actively developing for it?

 

True... but on the other hand, the best thing that could happen to 5200 homebrew, quality-wise, is more RAM.  And since the 5200's RAM chip is socketed, a homebrew upgrade to expand that amount of RAM to an amount that would let it play any A8 software is possible and would solve the system's main hardware problem.  External plug-in RAM expansions are also possible, with limitations, and could potentially get a larger userbase due to ease of use, but an internal one would be better.  The amarket for this would be pretty small either way, why not just do the better one...  Of course you'd have to open your console to do the upgrade, but as apparently all 5200s have this chip in a socket, so presuming that is accurate it wouldn't be too bad.

 

Greater availability of bank-switching for larger homebrew games would also be important of course, we see with Magical Fairy Force how limiting 32KB is (the game is quite good, but suffers in some ways from the size limit), but that is doable now, I believe.  I guess people could alternate make Atarimax-only games, but that would be unfortunate, a standalone cart option is always better. What's really needed is more system memory, and it's possible, as people on this forum have said every once in a while.  It's certainly unlikely to happen since putting that project together would be very difficult and expensive, but it sure would be incredible if it could.   What we have is great, it's just hard not to wish for the ability for some of the A8's more advanced stuff to run on the 5200, which I also prefer over the A8 computer.  It's fine either way but it's nice to dream, you know?

Edited January 10, 2022 by A Black Falcon

[phuzaxeman]

Would be cool to see a 5200 version using the keypad.

 

The 2600 version is already very good.

 

Superman is another version that would be cool too.

 

 

[+x=usr(1536)]

Since the 2600 got Raiders and Temple was released in the arcade, Grail would be the logical choice for a new ROTLA game.

 

And seeing as there never was a fourth movie in the series, that will take care of all of the films being turned into video games

[+Cafeman]

Don't forget to include the fridge scene. And vine swinging, with monkeys. 

[BIGHMW]

On 1/9/2022 at 9:52 AM, MrTrust said:

 

Well, having the controls on a single joystick isn't nothing.  Plus, it's just cool to have it on there.  But, I can't imagine it being anywhere near the top of anyone's list of potential projects.

 

I think it's safe to say you're not in the minority on that one.  There are times where the "digital" joystick is definitively better. It's a lot more limited, though.  For instance, Missile Command still ain't quite the same game on 5200, since you don't have the three bases, but on A8, it's not even close.

As for Missile Command not having three bases, well Paul Lee came up with a better version of it a few years back, more true to the arcade (play-wise not necessarily graphic-wise) called Missile Command + and it even utilizes the 1, 2, and 3 keypads (J, K, and L on the A8 keyboard) on either the joystick or (better than that!) the legendary CX53 Trak-Ball for each of the missile bases, Alpha, Delta, and Omega. And to switch between joystick ("STIK") mode and trak-ball ("TBAL") mode, all you do is hit the reset button on the controller (or Ctrl + T? on the A8 keyboard). I have played it and it is BY FAR better than the original A8/5200 MC.

Missile Command +.bin Missile Command+.xex

[Greg2600]

5 hours ago, x=usr(1536) said:

Since the 2600 got Raiders and Temple was released in the arcade, Grail would be the logical choice for a new ROTLA game.

 

And seeing as there never was a fourth movie in the series, that will take care of all of the films being turned into video games

By Grail do you mean Last Crusade?  That was released well after the 5200 was canceled; however, you have a point, had another Spielberg collaboration happened in the 1984 time frame, it most certainly would have been an adaptation of Temple of Doom, the latest movie.  So scratch Raiders, we need a proper Temple game for the 5200!  The arcade though didn't release until summer 1985, with most ports coming until 1988-89 time frame.  Anyway, the Apple II port is maybe the most low powered, with Amstrad/ZX Spectrum a bit more sophisticated graphically.  Oddly the only system Atari ported to of theirs was the ST.

[phuzaxeman]

On 1/9/2022 at 1:25 AM, Keatah said:

I liked the Syd Mead retro-futurism the 5200 styling conveyed. Would be at home in a home that garaged a Sentinel. And the tech of combining power and RF into one cable made it all the more exciting to a geeky kid learning about electronics.

 

Never could get used to the slushy controllers. Always liked the crisp definitive action of a simple 4+1 "digital" joystick. And I unequivocally say Intellivision made very good use their keypad. Likely the best of the pre-NES era.

The intellivision keypad can be hard to press.  Upgraded 5200 sticks with the gold dots make the keypad much smoother than intellivision. You can tell a difference between trons deadly disc vs 5200 Intellidiscs.  You can't also move the disc and press the keypad at the same time on Intellivision.

 

Many people that grew up on the 5200 sticks know how to take advantage of the analog sticks for games like Centipede and Galaxian. The 5200 sticks innovated controls for gaming. It's too bad the flex circuitry gave out and made the sticks unreliable. 

[Greg2600]

3 hours ago, phuzaxeman said:

The intellivision keypad can be hard to press.  Upgraded 5200 sticks with the gold dots make the keypad much smoother than intellivision. You can tell a difference between trons deadly disc vs 5200 Intellidiscs.  You can't also move the disc and press the keypad at the same time on Intellivision.

 

Many people that grew up on the 5200 sticks know how to take advantage of the analog sticks for games like Centipede and Galaxian. The 5200 sticks innovated controls for gaming. It's too bad the flex circuitry gave out and made the sticks unreliable. 

INTV controllers mostly stink, sadly, because I love that console.  Disc leaves much to be desired but the biggest problem is the fire buttons.  Too narrow, badly situated.  Granted at least they spring back unlike the terrible 5200 mush buttons.  I personally love the 5200 analog stick, don't care about self-centering.  It's terrible though for platform style games where you need to aim your character, with again the mushies lousy.  Thank God for the Matrix Maker pad!!!

[+x=usr(1536)]

5 hours ago, Greg2600 said:

By Grail do you mean Last Crusade?

*smacks forehead*

 

Yep, that's it.  Being pulled too many directions to think straight.

[Keatah]

I won't argue about the lousy ergonomics and action of the Inty controllers. But I will say I had a blast with the sophistication and complexity of games like Baseball and Sea Battle and Utopia compared against the VCS. It was like next-gen gaming compared against 5-switch joystick. And the keypad was integral to that.

[Crazy Climber]

On 12/18/2021 at 1:26 PM, Allan said:

I always wondered why there was no Raiders of the Lost Ark for the 5200. Not even a mention of it in any internal documents (that we know of). It seemed like it was such a lost opportunity to not publish this game for the 5200. My guess is that they simply didn't have the time/right creative programmer, although the 2600 version was released in 1982. You would have figured that they would have jumped on the opportunity to have this title for their new system.

 

**Yes I know about the Czeck and Polish Indiana games.

Licensing might have had a play in this too... I'm not sure how it worked for ROTLA/etc back then but you generally have certain criteria you have to meet (deadlines/costs/etc...)

[BIGHMW]

On 1/11/2022 at 7:08 AM, phuzaxeman said:

Would be cool to see a 5200 version using the keypad.

 

The 2600 version is already very good.

 

Superman is another version that would be cool too.

 

 

I'll put up both ROMs again and hope that maybe either Paul Lay (or someone else) will do you (and others besides myself since I wasn't the OP of this thread on the first place) a big favor and convert these for you guys, I'll do my part and thank him greatly for that afterwards, hopefully some of you will follow suit in doing so, you brought up Star Island almost 2 years ago, in which gave us Big Sexy owners our own version of Star Castle, maybe one (or more) of these will take off just as much. 

Raiders of the Lost Ark.xex Superman - The Game.xex Superman III.xex

[Wrathchild]

Keep up...  ?

 

[BIGHMW]

1 hour ago, Wrathchild said:

Keep up...  ?

 

 Hey thanks!!! I already downloaded it and will check it out.  

 

EDIT: OOPS! I almost forgot I already had this downloaded but for others info here it is:

Superman 3.rom

Edited January 12, 2022 by BIGHMW

[phuzaxeman]

22 hours ago, Greg2600 said:

INTV controllers mostly stink, sadly, because I love that console.  Disc leaves much to be desired but the biggest problem is the fire buttons.  Too narrow, badly situated.  Granted at least they spring back unlike the terrible 5200 mush buttons.  I personally love the 5200 analog stick, don't care about self-centering.  It's terrible though for platform style games where you need to aim your character, with again the mushies lousy.  Thank God for the Matrix Maker pad!!!

There's a much faster reaction time on an upgraded gold dot 5200 fire button than the wide hard to push intellivision.

 

Intellivision is one of my favorite consoles.  

[phuzaxeman]

6 hours ago, BIGHMW said:

I'll put up both ROMs again and hope that maybe either Paul Lay (or someone else) will do you (and others besides myself since I wasn't the OP of this thread on the first place) a big favor and convert these for you guys, I'll do my part and thank him greatly for that afterwards, hopefully some of you will follow suit in doing so, you brought up Star Island almost 2 years ago, in which gave us Big Sexy owners our own version of Star Castle, maybe one (or more) of these will take off just as much. 

Raiders of the Lost Ark.xex 14.5 kB · 3 downloads Superman - The Game.xex 48.42 kB · 3 downloads Superman III.xex 15.24 kB · 3 downloads

Please don't include me in your requests for conversions again.  That's not cool.

 

If someone actually worked on a 5200 version, I'd support it and purchase like I have many 5200 games.

 

 

[phuzaxeman]

5 hours ago, Wrathchild said:

Keep up...  ?

 

Hey, never knew about this.  Thanks.  Was this an 8bit game converted by you to the 5200?

 

 

[+Allan]

On 1/11/2022 at 12:16 PM, BIGHMW said:

As for Missile Command not having three bases, well Paul Lee came up with a better version of it a few years back, more true to the arcade (play-wise not necessarily graphic-wise) called Missile Command + and it even utilizes the 1, 2, and 3 keypads (J, K, and L on the A8 keyboard) on either the joystick or (better than that!) the legendary CX53 Trak-Ball for each of the missile bases, Alpha, Delta, and Omega. And to switch between joystick ("STIK") mode and trak-ball ("TBAL") mode, all you do is hit the reset button on the controller (or Ctrl + T? on the A8 keyboard). I have played it and it is BY FAR better than the original A8/5200 MC.

Missile Command +.bin 16 kB · 7 downloads Missile Command+.xex 9.51 kB · 6 downloads

I started this thread and it wasn't about making conversions. I really wish you would stop asking people to convert programs. Can't you see the problem with this? It's been pointed out to you MANY times. Please just stop.

[Cebus Capucinis]

It's never going to stop, frankly.