ivop Posted February 25, 2022 Share Posted February 25, 2022 11 hours ago, snicklin said: I still don't think you could fit every possible frame onto a cartridge. But if you could, I would say "Do it"! That depends on the cartridge. Uno CART with 16GB will fit a LOT of frames! Just select the one you need by software, and stream to the screen. No seek times. 11 hours ago, snicklin said: All the top demo's are full of smoke and mirrors. If you compare say Space Harrier with this proposition, SH prerenders each enemy. The only difference is that it would prerender the whole screen. Anyway, this isn't worth considering as I am proposing only prerendering each texture, just the same as an enemy in Space Harrier. Have no pride, just abuse the cartridge! Oh, sure! If you can, and you like it, go for it! It's a matter of taste I guess where the line between original hardware and expansions blurs. You can put a SID chip on a cart, and plug it in. I prefer software emulation Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
snicklin Posted February 25, 2022 Share Posted February 25, 2022 2 hours ago, ivop said: That depends on the cartridge. Uno CART with 16GB will fit a LOT of frames! Just select the one you need by software, and stream to the screen. No seek times. Oh, sure! If you can, and you like it, go for it! It's a matter of taste I guess where the line between original hardware and expansions blurs. You can put a SID chip on a cart, and plug it in. I prefer software emulation Hmm, I didn't realise a 16GB cart was possible. I wonder how the banking works on one of those? As for what is real Atari and what isn't, I personally accept additional storage but nothing else, not even stereo. But then if I accept extra storage, I accept the use of the storage for anything which is possible. Personal taste though, I accept. Anyway, back to the 3D system, I like it. Because at the moment, it is very "bare bones", it shows all the possibilities of what it could become. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
xxl Posted February 25, 2022 Author Share Posted February 25, 2022 interesting concept. Maybe someone will make a game for AVG cart which will be realized like Dragons Lair --- You can keep textures where you want, if you don't want them at all you can use solid color walls. The most important thing for me is that the engine will be able to run on a computer with 16KB RAM 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
_The Doctor__ Posted February 25, 2022 Share Posted February 25, 2022 (edited) But stereo was Atari design, as well as personality upgrades, and memory, including video updates.... this is the part issue, Hell it was even one of the Ad campaigns and selling points from the start. It is great to support from 16k and always can be, but that doesn't mean don't make for each step above after that too. A version for each major step so to speak... that's how it was done on many platforms... Edited February 25, 2022 by _The Doctor__ Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ivop Posted February 25, 2022 Share Posted February 25, 2022 58 minutes ago, snicklin said: Hmm, I didn't realise a 16GB cart was possible. I wonder how the banking works on one of those? There's no banking. Just loading from storage for each frame. Like Phaeron's IDE video player. That's the beauty of it. ANTIC (yes ANTIC) loads the video RAM directly from the IDE device (or SD card with an IDE API emulated). The CPU just selects a different block out of 16GB every frame, and there's a new frame on your display! 58 minutes ago, snicklin said: As for what is real Atari and what isn't, I personally accept additional storage but nothing else, not even stereo. But then if I accept extra storage, I accept the use of the storage for anything which is possible. Personal taste though, I accept. Yeah, I recognize the ambivalence. I accept stereo Pokey somewhat, but I am more impressed by single Pokey songs. Extra storage, okay, but where's the limit? 16GB is a Whole Lotta Bytees Co-processor on a cart was well known in the MSX, (S)NES and Sega world, but not so much in our 8-bit time just before that. Only Pokey in some 7800 carts. Wrathchild demonstrated a very cool MODE 7 implementation for the Uno Cart. 58 minutes ago, snicklin said: Anyway, back to the 3D system, I like it. Because at the moment, it is very "bare bones", it shows all the possibilities of what it could become. Yes, I like it. I thought it was about the engine fitting in 16kB, but now I read it should run on a 16kB machine, too That's cool. I really appreciate the effort. Similarly, I made sure that Pokey Explorer runs on a 16kB machine Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ivop Posted February 25, 2022 Share Posted February 25, 2022 (edited) Post deleted. Huh? I was replying to xxl's posting, wrote a lot of text, and when I posted it, it was a duplicate of my previous posting?!?!?! Edited February 25, 2022 by ivop Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wrathchild Posted February 25, 2022 Share Posted February 25, 2022 @ivop you might have a job trying to sync SD card access and antic requests. I feel you're bigging up the UNO Cart a little here. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
danwinslow Posted February 25, 2022 Share Posted February 25, 2022 (IMO) Raycasting engine should raycast. Using extra memory for fast textures - OK. Trying to pre-cache every possible view - lame. 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ivop Posted February 25, 2022 Share Posted February 25, 2022 (edited) 13 minutes ago, Wrathchild said: @ivop you might have a job trying to sync SD card access and antic requests. I feel you're bigging up the UNO Cart a little here. Okay, I might be mistaken about the Uno Cart IDE emulation, but I believe the AVG cart is up to it, no? The rest I said about having ANTIC fetch screen memory should definitely work with MyIDE(1,2) and SIDE(1,2,3). Dragon's Lair (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bRU0TaJq2eA) should be possible. The CPU only has to poll the joystick a little, and select the proper block to load next frame, including sampled sounds. For a new game: choosing a different graphics mode (no DLIs), no sampled sounds but Pokey sounds, will give you back a lot of cycles. Edited February 25, 2022 by ivop 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ivop Posted February 25, 2022 Share Posted February 25, 2022 (edited) 22 minutes ago, danwinslow said: (IMO) Raycasting engine should raycast. Using extra memory for fast textures - OK. Trying to pre-cache every possible view - lame. I'm not advocating using this (i.e. stream frames from an IDE device, or a large cartridge like The!Cart), just pointing out it is a possibility that could work. But xxl is all about real hardware, and sizecoding, and so am I. Pokey Explorer works on a 16kb machine. 16kB for the win! Edit: just wait for xxl to release his code, and then listen to the complaints that it doesn't work on their CMOS CPU's because of "illegal" instructions Edited February 25, 2022 by ivop Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
snicklin Posted February 25, 2022 Share Posted February 25, 2022 Ahh it's OK, I am only joking about prerendering frames, extending on Ivo's idea, though I do think that prerendering textures may be a good thing. I don't want Dragon's Lair, just stick with what is being done now. Let's end this conversation deviation. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ivop Posted February 25, 2022 Share Posted February 25, 2022 1 hour ago, snicklin said: Ahh it's OK, I am only joking about prerendering frames, extending on Ivo's idea, though I do think that prerendering textures may be a good thing. I don't want Dragon's Lair, just stick with what is being done now. Let's end this conversation deviation. Absolutely, we want <16kB sweetness. No cartridges or whatsoever Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
xxl Posted February 26, 2022 Author Share Posted February 26, 2022 On 2/25/2022 at 8:53 PM, ivop said: Edit: just wait for xxl to release his code, and then listen to the complaints that it doesn't work on their CMOS CPU's because of "illegal" instructions careless code will work on craft computers lda (zoomY),y tax lda textura,x but for a screen and four pixels per byte it's better to write faster code that unfortunately excludes some modifications: lax (zoomY),y lda textura,x but will save 2*4*16*64 = 8192 cycles on screen 3 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
xxl Posted February 26, 2022 Author Share Posted February 26, 2022 I've implemented faster routines and you can't see it, but I can clearly feel it when I control it - it's quite smooth now. The change was to eliminate the texture shift (now the texture takes 512 bytes) - of course you can not see the textures here, but they are there 8 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
xxl Posted February 27, 2022 Author Share Posted February 27, 2022 the Saint's confession brought new ideas - move the buffer to the stack and use SP as an index register that will update itself after writing to the buffer y=height @ lax ScaleY,y ;4 delicious raisin lda Tex,x ;4 and #$c0 ;2 sta EBUF,x ;4 dey ;2 bne @- ;3 19 x=height txs @ ldy ScaleY,x ;4 lda Tex,y ;4 and #$c0 ;2 pha ;3 faster than STA tsx ;2 bpl @- ;3 18 5 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
xxl Posted March 7, 2022 Author Share Posted March 7, 2022 (edited) If someone has an irresistible urge to make a set of textures then I am ready. sizes: width 4 bytes, height 32 bytes - can be multiples of width e.g. 8 or 12 bytes wide. --- of course I invite to cooperation the person who does not mind that this code will not run on malfunctioning extensions. --- redy for sprites (zbuf added) Edited March 7, 2022 by xxl 10 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
invisible kid Posted March 7, 2022 Share Posted March 7, 2022 Lookin' good! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
xxl Posted March 7, 2022 Author Share Posted March 7, 2022 I have to hurry up, because when Saint publishes the 3D game (today I saw that it works) there will be nothing left to collect Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
+Stephen Posted March 7, 2022 Share Posted March 7, 2022 4 hours ago, xxl said: of course I invite to cooperation the person who does not mind that this code will not run on malfunctioning extensions. Keep on fighting the good fight 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
xxl Posted March 7, 2022 Author Share Posted March 7, 2022 Saint takes no prisoners: Doom on Atari 64k... 9 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
xxl Posted March 8, 2022 Author Share Posted March 8, 2022 Well, and is there any point in continuing to write the 3D engine now that Saint has taken the plunge? 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Beeblebrox Posted March 8, 2022 Share Posted March 8, 2022 (edited) 2 hours ago, xxl said: Well, and is there any point in continuing to write the 3D engine now that Saint has taken the plunge? Absolutely! Your engine has a wider onscreen playfield, is smoother and I like the walking bob. (Of course kudos goes to Saint for the above - cool engine - DOOM on a postage stamp!). IMHO the more A8 3D engines the merrier! Edited March 8, 2022 by Beeblebrox 3 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
_The Doctor__ Posted March 8, 2022 Share Posted March 8, 2022 I would say absolutely! I like your approach and would like to see it further developed. There is so much to be gained by the community with more avenues explored. Please take it all the way. 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
xxl Posted March 8, 2022 Author Share Posted March 8, 2022 After consultation with Saint it was agreed that the sprite engine from Doom would be stolen by me and implemented in some form. 4 3 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Heaven/TQA Posted March 9, 2022 Share Posted March 9, 2022 On 3/7/2022 at 10:44 PM, xxl said: Saint takes no prisoners: Doom on Atari 64k... Well… easy VIC20 Port 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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