Alternate Reality: City&dungeon

[Gunstar]

How many of you guys spent half your life back in the day playing this RPG series and Knew it was the greatest RPG ever available for 8-bit and 16-bit systems? How many of you, like me, still think the latest RPG's could learn a thing or two from this greatest of all RPGs(IMHO)! My sister and her boyfriend(back in the day), who were/are seven years older than me, even spent more time at it than myself! I bought a second disk drive just for this game, so I wouldn't have to swap disk as much! My fondest memories of Atari 8-bits are this game, the lucasfilm games, and StarRaiders!!! If I was to be stranded on a desert Island and could take any computer/console and a few games, even today I'd still pick my 8-bit and Alternate Reality games&Lucasfilm games&StarRaiders...

 

I may be insane, but only when I don't have my wits about me...

[Albert]

Ahhhh, the Alternate Reality series. I spent a great deal of time playing both The City and The Dungeon. Too much time, in fact. Those were amazing games considering the platform they were running on. I remember seeing this game running at a friend's house, before I purchased it. I was amazed at the intro and then by the gameplay. I still have many of those Alternate Reality tunes running through my head.

 

Those games certainly helped influence me later in life, as one of the more recent projects I worked on was Deus Ex (an RPG) for the PC.

 

There was a project afoot to bring Alternate Reality to the PC by some of the original staff. The website is here, but there haven't been any changes to it since it went online three (or so?) years ago. Too bad, because it'd be wonderful to see a version on the PC. The problem is, they'd have to live up to the standards of today's games, which takes large teams of artists, programmers, designers, musicians, and so forth. The core Deus Ex team was around 20 people, and many others were involved externally.

 

I see they have email links at the bottom of that page, might be worthwhile to drop them a line and see if any movement is being made on the project or if it's been abandoned.

 

..Al

[Gunstar]

Well, I guess it was just you and I Albert. This topic seems to be avoided like the plague...

It's strange, though, because there are web pages devoted to this game. It was released on quite a few platforms; Atari 800/ST and Commodore64/Amiga, maybe some others...oh, well, I absolutly love this game, and so has everyone else I've ever talked to that has come into contact with it. It WAS done first on the Atari 8-bit, and fans claim that version to be the best(it's the only version I've ever tried, so I've got no opinion on the others). Well guys, You've GOT to check it out if you like RPG's or not. The city was done by the original author on the 8-bit and all other versions were done by Datasoft teams. It was the first video game that reminded me of a movie(atleast the intro). Go get'um grasshopper...

[Gunstar]

Oh, yeah, Albert, I have seen that web page, and it did look promising...I did write them before, but never got any response...It would be cool. It's to bad they don't AT LEAST finish up the series on the 800, after all RETRO is in and lot's of people, including daytime professional programmers&artists are doing stuff for the classics in their spare time...and THAT they could do with just the few people from the original team...PHILIP PRICE where are you!?!?!?!?(besides somewhere in Hawaii)

[Mindfield]

AR has, and still remains my all-time favourite RPG for any system. Ever. It was way ahead of its time (texture mapping 3D 5 years before the first such game appeared on any other system. Granted, it was precalculated, but it was the first game ever to feature such), it was *incredibly* atmospheric -- all those little touches, the wind, night and day, rain and shine, random encounters, a full original score, secret areas, incidental sounds (the sound of the smithy's hammer, or the sound of battle as you passed the Arena) really enhanced the whole experience. I played the City to death, and then played it s'more. I ended up with a 14th level character who was immune to Deadly Poison, so as soon as I got a red & sweet potion, it got quaffed. If it was deadly poison -- oh well; I'd quaffed so many deadly poison potions and healed myself at the healer's that I built up an immunity to it. But if it was Treasure Finding, I went a-huntin' -- especially gremlins at night in the rain; they always had the best treasure on them when you were under the influence of treasure finding, and always appeared most frequently at night when it was raining.

 

The Dungeon I also loved, although much of the atmosphere was lost. It was a logical move, of course; there are no atmospheric effects -- sun, rain, wind, etc. -- in a dungeon. Still, I missed that. They also changed the sound of the smithy's hammer, which bugged me 'cos it didn't sound as good as the original. There was however an actual plot in the Dungeon -- with numerous sub-plots and quests to engage in, which really kept you interested and playing hard.

 

And yes, there's plenty that modern games could learn from the AR series. These days it's all about pomp and ceremony; flashy graphics, realistic sound -- all the sales pitch material. Unfortunately it's usually at the expense of good -- and bug-free -- gameplay. With software companies constantly tightening deadlines and trying to push more product out faster, it's all become one big grist mill -- the Hollywood of video games, endlessly churning out cookie-cutter games that look pretty and elicit plenty of oohs and aahs from spectators, but don't try very hard to foster any sort of affinity from the one who's actually playing. Personally, I feel a game's enjoyment is inversely proportional to the number of aftermarket patches that are (or will be) required to be able to play the game properly.

 

Is it any wonder retrogaming is so in vogue these days? I mean, it highlights better than any example the fact that pomp is, in the larger sense, irrelevant next to how well the game plays -- and more importantly, replays. Sure, I love the immersiveness of first person perspective games, but by the same token, I'd rather play a game that immerses me in other, more important ways. I'd rather play a game that involves me and encourages me to play it further. Modern games are of a finite nature; there's a definite beginning, a middle, and an end, like a one-off book, and that's fine and well. The AR series however was very much open-ended; while there were definite tasks you needed to complete (in The Dungeon), even after completing the final task and revealing the Alien plot, you could still, even after the end sequence, wander about and kill creatures and such, ostensibly in preparation to import your character into the ill-fated third in the series. That kind of open-endedness offered unlimited gameplay, and the fantastic gameplay itself made you want to continue to play even after you've completed it. And you can't fake that kind of thing like modern companies try to do with all that window dressing.

[Gunstar]

Exactly! Another perefect example of this, is, the entire library of Infocom text adventures. I was like reading a good book, only interactive. It let your IMAGINATION immerse you. It's too bad someone hasn't tried to revive the text adventure genre. With todays A.I., They could be incredible!

I think EA owns the rights to Infocom now. I always loved opening the Infocom "kits" and beholding what trinkets lay inside to ad to the atmosphere of the game, before you even played it.

[Mindfield]

Infocom games were great. I especially loved the ones Douglas Adams had a hand in. (Bureaucrasy, THHGTTG, Planetfall/Stationfall) They left you with no choice but to use your imagination, as there were no visual cues. As you said, it was like reading a good book, only except that you were able to take part in it. Ironically, several books were released based on several of the Infocom games; I bought both the Enchanter and Sorcerer books, though each was written by a different author. They weren't epic fantasy as you'd expect from the likes of say, Robert Jordan or Terry Goodkind, but they were cute, in that Piers Anthony Xanth sort of way.

However, The AR series were no less adept at telling a good story, even if it was mostly visual rather than mental. The plot was excellent, the gameplay was phenominal, and the story evolved in new and interesting ways as you played, which is just what a good book -- and a good RPG -- should do. Most RPGs try, but they tend to have tired, archetypical plots with predictable plot twists and action; there's little to fire the imagination and plenty to get bored of after the first time through. AR was good enough that, even when you've been through it, you want to go through it again and again -- also the mark of a good book. And it takes a skilled developer to create an engaging world that you want to revisit even after you've toured it extensively and repeatedly.

It's a pity modern developers simply don't take heed -- or can't because of deadline destrictions.

[Tempest]

Anybody who could beat Bueracracy without cheating is a God in my book. That game was so damn impossible even with a hint book. The only think that helped was that I was a huge Douglas Adams fan and I knew the way he thought.

 

How many of the Infocom text adventures were released for the Atari (all of them?) I had them for my Apple IIe. I still have my Fluff from HGTTG.

 

Tempest

[zekish]

Re: Infocom and Interactive Fiction:

 

http://interactfiction.about.com/

 

Believe it or not, there's a cult following. And with the programming experience of the folks here, I'm sure you'd have no problem learning how to use Inform or any of the other languages.

 

The weirdest thing about the Infocom games it that they were designed to work on a virtual computer, the z-engine. This would be running on whatever system you put it on. So, you only really had to program one version of a game and a z-engine for each system once. Made their work at Infocom easier, I'm sure.

 

I'm in the process of re-reading the Hitchhiker's trilogy right now. Been quite a few years since I last read it. I'm still bummed we lost Douglas Adams. It would have been great to see him get the internet version of the guide up and running, though I'm sure folks are continuing with it.

[Gunstar]

I only ever had Wishbringer, and the Zork's for my Atari back in the day, I didn't realize Douglas Adams was involved with any of them. I always intended to get more/all of them, but just never got around to it. Now I know I have to get them ALL.

To the question; "where all the Infocom games made on the Atari 8-bit," I'd have to say I believe so. I know there were a LOT. Off the top of my head, I remember titles like; Wishbringer, Sorcerer, Leather Godesses of Phobos, Zork I&II&III, Infidel, Murder on the Zinder-something or other, HHGTTG, Deadline, Enchanter, Planetfall, Seastalker, Starcross, Suspect, Suspended, Witness, well, if that's not all of em', that's all I can remember(I'm surpised that I remembered that many!).

 

I sure do miss playing AR, though, I remember finishing both the Dungeon and the City and I still couldn't get enough, so I kept adventuring around anyway(finding lots of neat things I missed the first time) and just becoming ALL POWERFUL. I'll keep playing this game until the day I die(once I get it/them again), whether that be today or when I'm 90. I always like the Ultima one's too, but not as much as AR-by a long shot! Never did get into any of the SSI RPG's much, I really tried to like Phantasy, but after Ultima and then AR, I just couldn't suffer through it. I got spoiled on the best.

[Mindfield]

Most of the Infocom games made it, up to (but excluding) Zork Zero. The Atari ST and Amiga saw a few of the ones the 8-bit didn't get; Zork Zero, Beyond Zork, Nord and Bert Couldn't Make Head or Tail Of It (hillarious game, by the way -- anyone have an image of this one? It's damn impossible to find!) and one or two others. The rest -- Return to Zork, Zork Nemesis, and so on -- only made it to PC (possibly Mac, too). I didn't much like these tho, as they became "interactive movies" and so lost their classic touch, becoming more common with the then-glut of such games (Myst, et al) Curiously, only the Amiga got the Infocom Collection 1 and 2; for some reason they never released that on the ST.

Personally I liked Zork Zero; it was still purely text, but there were simplistic graphics in the form of a map that showed where you were and where you'd been. Plus, where else could you beat someone up with a shelailagh? :-)

 

As for Douglas Adams -- yep. He was involved in several, starting, of course, with The Hitchhiker's Guide to the Galaxy. He went on to write a few more, all, of course, rife with his wit and sense of humour. (Mind you, Planetfall and Stationfall, while funny, weren't quite as offbeat as one might be used to when reading Adams' stuff) I was morified to read of his death; he was a legend in his prime who had hardly begun to write in earnest. I was really looking forward to another Dirk Gently novel; I kept anxiously awaiting a third installment while he was working on Last Chance to See... he is sorely missed.

 

 

<moment of silence>

 

 

</moment of silence>

 

Returning to the larger topic at hand, I did the same with AR -- adventuring well beyond the game's climax, mapping everything, discovering all the secrets, items, etc. It was just that kind of game where, even when you've seen the culmination of all your efforts bear fruit, you still want more. I remember anxiously awaiting The Palace, as that was to be next, and hearing of beta versions floating around (though I never came across such). Then I heard of Datasoft's folding and subsequent cancelling of the project and very nearly died of apoplexy. And as good as the Ultima games were, they couldn't hold a candle to AR, so were scant consolation. I always wanted to continue the series myself; I was even writing an ATASCII version of AR in MAC/65 to be played on Oasis bulletin boards (believe it or not -- and it worked! Clunky visuals of course, but the 3D was there!) I left the 8-bit scene before I got anything playable done though... *sigh*

 

One of these days...

[Karl Heller]

For people who like AR... I worked on a Doom version for a few years with my brother. The City is 100% intact, even has sounds from the Atari8bit version and some other games. We just hadn't finished populating it. If anyone is interested please let him know: http://www.personal.psu.edu/axh174/ Ther is some info under the shells.wad link. Otherwise email.

 

Karl

[Scott Stilphen]

I remember AR:The City Excellent RPG! Wow, that brings back some memories.

 

The whole AR series was going to be huge, if I remember (4 games? 6?). I think there was a C-64 version of City (and Dungeon? Any others?) but I never played it.

[Mindfield]

There were to be seven titles, all told.

 

Released:

 

- The City (A8, C64, Apple II, PC, ST, Amiga)

- The Dungeon (Same)

 

Unreleased, but rumoured to have a beta at the time:

 

- The Palace (third in the series)

 

Unreleased, and not even started:

 

- The Arena (Fourth)

- The Wilderness (Fifth)

- The Revelation (Sixth)

- The Reckoning (Seventh)

 

The entire series had, at the very least, been concieved of by Philip price -- he knew where everything was headed. Unfortunately the death of Datasoft squelched any hopes of seeing the series even begin to reach a climax. Last I heard (from Phil himself, no less) he does have the rights to the games, and does plan on excersizing them, but at present is pressed for time to do so as a result of his regular job.

 

Here's some tidbits I thought I'd share about the game for anyone interested:

 

There were some striking differences between the 8-bit and 16-bit/PC versions of The City; On the ST, Amiga and PC, streets and areas had names (on the 8-bitters they were merely "A street," "An Alcove," "A Cul-de-Sac," etc.) You were also able to join Guilds, get a job (and a watch by which to arrive on time), and be judged in degrees of good or evil by your actions (which determined your acceptance at public establishments, and the frequency and type of encounters that occurred) None of these variables were present in the 8-bit versions of the game. And here's a little trivia: One area of the game (known as Price Commons in the 16-bit versions of the game) when mapped out, spells "Philip Price." Another bit of trivia: If you tried to play a copied version of the game on the ST/Amiga/PC, your character would be generated pure evil with no hope of redemption.

 

[ 07-14-2001: Message edited by: Mindfield ]

[Gunstar]

Attempting to make a copy of it on the Atari 8-bit, resulted in "the long arm of the law arresting you once you got your stats and entered. It even showed a graphic of "Men in Black" and then the game just shut down. I believe this copy protection technique has been cracked or bypassed since? After all, just about every 8-bit ftp site has the games listed.

[Mindfield]

Yeah, the protection was defeated on pretty well all versions of the game. (Mind you the ST version wasn't cracked all that well, and there were a number of bad cracks that floated around, unplayable because you couldn't get a job, sleep at an inn, or slake your thirst or hunger at a tavern due to your being evil. Of course that didn't really matter much because every encounter resulted in immediate attacks and usually ended in death -- yours, since every smithy just threw you out, leaving you defenseless)

[Xebec's Demise]

I grew up on this game!

 

In fact, I am playing it right now, on my PC with Atari800win Plus, in another window, as I type this!

 

 

Trying to make it to level one without dying!

 

I am not backing up my character, not using any map, not interested in cheating and I am having a blast.

 

It's a tough game The City.

 

The Dungeon is another story all-together. It's more of a quest type game and when you complete all the quests, you kind of feel you're done with the game. But The City, well, there is something mysterious and magical about it no matter how many times you play, I really like to think of it as an alternate reality.

Edited May 10, 2005 by Xebec's Demise

[Heaven/TQA]

we spent weeks playing AR (city/dungeon) but i was more into dungeon than city... but friend of mine was addicted to the city... he even do not go to school when playing... last weekend we had a chat about AR when we talked about WOW... and he told more stories like he spend weeks to get all for his "hammer" like weapon...and when going to the guy who makes the weapon he told him that the weapon will be ready in 2 weeks... REALTIME... unbelievable...

 

maybe after playing WOW and ultima i should play little bit AR... i love the thunder and lighting and yes... i have bought a second 1050 as well just to avoid disk swapping (as my switch broke...)

[Heaven/TQA]

and as a demo lover & coder i was impressed by the intro and the well used atari features.... and i could sing the intro song... "the waves are pounding on the shore..."

[Gunstar]

What does WOW stand for? I haven't a clue...but I'm all about old school RPG's except for Morrowind on the xbox, they only "modern" RPG I've really played for any length of time. (true RPG anyway, I've played plenty of modern psuedo RPG/adventure games.

[Heaven/TQA]

World Of Warcraft = WOW...

[Goochman]

AR Dungeon was only released on the 8bit and C64 not the ST or Amiga - so demo code it out there only.

[eobet]

AR Dungeon was only released on the 8bit and C64 not the ST or Amiga - so demo code it out there only.

853360[/snapback]

 

I just woke up, so forgive me if I'm slow, but what does the last part of the above sentence mean?

[Goochman]

AR Dungeon was only released on the 8bit and C64 not the ST or Amiga - so demo code it out there only.

853360[/snapback]

 

I just woke up, so forgive me if I'm slow, but what does the last part of the above sentence mean?

853825[/snapback]

 

Typo - meant to say some demo code made it out there only.

[Xebec's Demise]

Ahhhh, the Alternate Reality series.  I spent a great deal of time playing both The City and The Dungeon.  Too much time, in fact.  Those were amazing games considering the platform they were running on.  I remember seeing this game running at a friend's house, before I purchased it.  I was amazed at the intro and then by the gameplay.  I still have many of those Alternate Reality tunes running through my head.

 

Those games certainly helped influence me later in life, as one of the more recent projects I worked on was Deus Ex (an RPG) for the PC. 

 

There was a project afoot to bring Alternate Reality to the PC by some of the original staff.  The website is www.alternatereality.com but there haven't been any changes to it since it went online three (or so?) years ago.  Too bad, because it'd be wonderful to see a version on the PC.  The problem is, they'd have to live up to the standards of today's games, which takes large teams of artists, programmers, designers, musicians, and so forth.  The core Deus Ex team was around 20 people, and many others were involved externally.

 

I see they have email links at the bottom of that page, might be worthwhile to drop them a line and see if any movement is being made on the project or if it's been abandoned.

 

..Al

Yeah, Philip really squoze every little bit of capability out of the Atari and then some! It's amazing that the Atari 8-bit verson looks far better than the 16-bit Amiga and ST versons! Philip Price must have made a deal with the devil to write such wonderful code for the Atari 8-bit! The screenshots speak for themselves:

 

Atari 8-bit:

 

Atari ST:

 

Amiga:

 

I checked your link to www.alternatereality.com, but sadly, there is nothing left. A massively multiplayer Alternate Reality: The City, would have been the perfect MMOG and at the perfect time, if it had come out! I would have prefered it to Ultima Online, which is nowhere near as realistic, believeable or immersive as a virtual world, even compared to the original AR: The CIty. A great oportunity was missed, especially if it was programmed with the loving care of Philip Price and his passionate programing perfectionism, with wonderful music by Gary Gilbertson.

 

To try to compete now, you need millions of dollars in capital, but it could happen if Philip and Gary hooked up with the right company!

 

*dreams*

Edited May 12, 2005 by Xebec's Demise