Another A8 disk archive started

[Tempest]

I always thought that when RoF was still known as Rescue Mission there was no shooting involved at all.  I guess I was wrong, or maybe they meant that there were no Jaggi pilots?  I didn't see any when I briefly played, but maybe I just wasn't at a high enough level.

[SpicyChronos]

6 hours ago, www.atarimania.com said:

 

Some amazing stuff here!

 

Do you have more details on disk 0638B-521? I understand these are VisiCalc templates but is there any other reference on the label? Is it VisaTax or VisiTax? Probably the latter, right? 

I'll have to locate the disk, and get back to you.

[Kr0tki]

On 3/3/2022 at 10:18 PM, Tempest said:

So what's the story behind this file.  It's obviously a beta of RoF that's slightly earlier than the Behind Jaggie Lines proto, but it's a executable for the Atari 8-bits and not for the 5200.  I thought the game was developed on the 5200 then ported to the Atari 8-bits.  Was this a quick conversion of a 5200 proto or were protos developed simultaneously for the 5200 and 8-bits?

Peter Langston revealed in his 1985 paper that their main development system consisted of Atari 800 machines connected via serial port to Unix hosts. So the 8-bits were the first targets for the games.

 

You haven't covered the "Ballblaster" nor the "Behind Jaggi Lines!" prototypes on your website so far, so I don't know if you know, but both titles have leaked from within Atari when Lucasfilm shared their WIP disks with them. They were the computer versions, not the console ones.

 

I had wondered why the leaked "Ballblaster" was dated 1983 and was rather far from the final version, while "Behind Jaggi Lines!", supposedly coming from the same leak, was dated 1984 and was much closer to the final. Existence of this "Rescue Mission" version seems to solve the puzzle. David Fox stated in a 1997 interview that the games were leaked in the fall of 1983 and were called "Ballblaster" and "Rescue Mission" at the time. That would mean that "Behind Jaggi Lines!" was pirated at some later date, independently of "Ballblaster".

On 3/4/2022 at 10:38 PM, Tempest said:

I always thought that when RoF was still known as Rescue Mission there was no shooting involved at all.  I guess I was wrong, or maybe they meant that there were no Jaggi pilots?  I didn't see any when I briefly played, but maybe I just wasn't at a high enough level.

According to the "Rogue Leaders" book (see page 16), the game was called "Rebel Rescue" at the time George Lucas asked for the fire button and for the Jaggies, and was renamed to "Rescue Mission" sometime later.

 

Jaggi enemies are in "Rescue Mission", you have indeed not played long enough. They can be green or disguised as human pilots, and they will tear your ship from the inside if you let them in; just like in the final version.

On 3/3/2022 at 10:09 PM, Tempest said:

Here's what  I've found so far.

 

There's no Lucasfilm logo or intro, the game starts at cockpit screen
There's no options screen or high score screen
Cockpit screen says * Rescue Misison * instead of Rescue on Fractalus!
Copyright says (C) Lucasfilm Ltd. instead of (c)1985 Lucasfilm Ltd.
Starts on level 1 instead of 4
Pilot Distance meter says L instead of R
Artificial Horizon meter is missing AH text
Long Range scanner right doesn't say LR instead has magnifications (2x, 4x, etc)
No Standby By text on launch
Compass doesn't display on launch, it only appears on planet
The mountains are 'smoother' and don't have dotted lines
E (engines) turns off shield instead of S (systems)
There is no sound when B is pressed and mothership not present
There is no sound when L is pressed when already landed
The Pilot Quota meter shows how many pilots rescued rather than number remaining to rescue.  It alternates between number rescued and number needed to rescue
Ships look like hollow diamond on radar instead of being 'ship shaped'
No Jaggie pilots or Aces
No MOTHERSHIP! text
No demo

Compass not displayed on launch is actually the same behaviour as in the final version.

 

More differences:

- No custom font.

- Different title music.

- Select key changes starting level, from 1 to 32. It's horribly slow, no wonder they later added a proper options screen instead.

- Engine sounds are a bit different both during launch sequence and gameplay.

- No "Manual" text once the player reaches the surface.

- No pause key.

- Start key resets the game - in later versions it was done by other keys.

- No day/night cycle.

- Terrain rendering not yet optimized, with the frame rate being about 3-4 FPS, compared to the later versions' 6-8 FPS. (I wonder if the change from solid mountain outlines to dotted ones wasn't dictated by optimization?)

- M key switches Long Range Scanner between 1x and 4x. (How did you switch it to 2x though?)

- No sound when the range counter changes its value.

- No warning beep and Long Range Scanner not blinking when a downed pilot is in range of 2 or less.

- It is possible to position the ship just far enough from the pilot that the range counter shows "2", but the message is still "PILOT TOO FAR".

- Black background lines on wing clearance bars.

- No sound on all key presses, not only B and L.

- Downed pilots don't die after waiting at the airlock for too long.

- Pilot counter does not blink when the quota is reached.

- Enemy turrets also look like diamond shapes on the targeting scope.

- No jump-scarey sound when a Jaggi jumps at your windshield.

- In later levels random maneuvers apparently do not prevent the gun turrets from locking at you; makes the game much, much harder.

- A visual glitch: the "FIRE BOOSTERS" message changes its colour to dark grey for a moment when it disappears.

- When you choose to go to the mother ship with the pilot quota not reached yet, you can return to the same level but the quota is reset - you essentially start the level from scratch. In later versions the pilot quota is not reset and it is possible to complete a level in multiple runs.

- Even if you re-do a level as described above, you still get the "LEVEL COMPLETE" score bonus upon its completion. In later versions you get that bonus only if you completed a level in one go.

- After completing a level, you can skip up to 31 levels with Select. In later version the skip is limited to 3 levels.

- There is no fanfare tune after level completion.

- There is no game over tune after your ship crashes. The game just goes back to the title screen and also decreases the current level by 1.

 

The "Behind Jaggi Lines!" prototype is much closer to the final version, though still has quite a few differences:

- No custom font.

- No Lucasfilm logo or intro.

- Music improved since "Rescue Mission", but still different from "RoF".

- Starts at level select screen instead of cockpit view.

- Starts on level 1 instead of 4.

- Possible to select up to level 99 from the get go, in "RoF" it is up to 16 (disk versions) or 30 (cartridge).

- No highscores screen. (Note that it was added only in the XEGS cartridge release of "RoF".)

- No "STAND BY..." and "MANUAL" messages during launch sequence.

- Backspace resets the game, but only when paused. In the final version Break resets the game at all times.

- The day/night cycle has one "darkness level" less than "RoF" - even in the darkest moment mountains are distinguishable from the sky. "RoF" has an additional "completely black" darkness level with a nice little graphical touch when the screen goes from "almost black" to "completely black".

- E (engines) turns off shield instead of S (systems).

- Downed pilots still don't die when waiting at the airlock.

- The game over tune has a few additional notes at the beginning.

[bfollowell]

Thanks! That's a lot of detailed information. RoF is definitely one of my favorites and brings back a lot of memories from my college years.

 

[SpicyChronos]

On 3/4/2022 at 11:00 PM, SpicyChronos said:

I'll have to locate the disk, and get back to you.

 

Found the disk. It's labeled Visatax. It's possibly mis-labeled. I've found a few disks with spelling mistakes.

[Tempest]

9 hours ago, Kr0tki said:

You haven't covered the "Ballblaster" nor the "Behind Jaggi Lines!" prototypes on your website so far, so I don't know if you know, but both titles have leaked from within Atari when Lucasfilm shared their WIP disks with them. They were the computer versions, not the console ones.

I haven't covered Ballblaster, but I covered Behind Jaggi Lines in the 5200 section.  Is the 5200 version of BJL the same as the 8-bit proto?  Are the protos on Atarimania?  Do you have a list of differences for Ballblaster (I really appreciate that BTW)?

[Tempest]

Are there any dates on these prototypes?  Are the probably early 1984 or could Rescue Mission be late 1983?

[www.atarimania.com]

1 hour ago, SpicyChronos said:

Found the disk. It's labeled Visatax. It's possibly mis-labeled. I've found a few disks with spelling mistakes.

 

Thank you!

[Kr0tki]

3 hours ago, Tempest said:

Is the 5200 version of BJL the same as the 8-bit proto?

I haven't checked. Most of the differences you listed apply to the 8-bit version as well, except for "The stars don't fade out before entering the atmosphere" - huh? They don't fade out in the final version either; and "Many of the sounds are slightly different" - that doesn't seem to be true. Would be a good idea to check if all the other differences listed above apply to the 5200 proto.

 

3 hours ago, Tempest said:

Are the protos on Atarimania?

Yes, Atarimania hosts DOS binary files of both protos. Although them being binary files grabbed from the Internet, it's possible they are not 100% original. For example, the Ballblaster file on Atarimania has the title screen text "Lucasfilms Ltd", which seems suspicious - because there exists another copy available e.g. at AtariOnline.pl, which has the text "A Lucasfilm Ltd Production" instead, but is otherwise identical. This means one of these versions is a hack of another, but I'm not sure which is the original (though I think it's the latter).

 

3 hours ago, Tempest said:

Do you have a list of differences for Ballblaster (I really appreciate that BTW)?

Okay...

- No Lucasfilm logo or intro.

- Title logo drawn with a slimmer font.

- Differrent copyright text, includes credits.

- Text "pages" on the title screen change faster.

- Title music lacks bass line changes and the algorythmic "riffology" lead.

- Both easter eggs (i.e. type AUTHOR to reveal credits; finish game in less than 1 minute to show initials in the checkerboard's right corner) missing.

- No options menu, game hardwired to 3 minute human vs. human.

- When starting a round, there's a slight delay between the end of the music and the release of the ball.

- In-game music also lacks the randomly-generated percussion layer.

- Select does not pause the game.

- Break does not reset the game.

- Windshield of the rotofoil holding the ball does not lighten up.

- When scoring a goal, the sky does not flash for the scoring player and the scoring rotofoil does not brighten up in the other player's point of view.

- When scoring the goal, the recently-gained points on the scoreboard are NOT temporarily marked with circles.

- At match end the losing rotofoil does not spin out of control.

- When there's a draw when the time runs out, there is no "OVER TIME" message, the timer just stays at 0 until someone scores a goal.

2 hours ago, Tempest said:

Are there any dates on these prototypes?  Are the probably early 1984 or could Rescue Mission be late 1983?

There's no date anywhere in "Rescue Mission", but if David Fox is to be believed, then both "Ballblaster" and "Rescue Mission" would be from Fall 1983, and "Behind Jaggi Lines!" from 1st quarter 1984 (because by the May 1984 conference the game has been already retitled to "RoF").

 

EDIT: I've forgotten to list a few differences between "Behind Jaggi Lines!" and the final version:

- No "type AUTHOR" easter egg.

- Demo droids numbered sequentially instead of random letters/numbers.

Edited March 7, 2022 by Kr0tki

[Tempest]

1 hour ago, Kr0tki said:

"The stars don't fade out before entering the atmosphere" - huh? They don't fade out in the final version either;

I think they do in the 8-bit Cartridge version

1 hour ago, Kr0tki said:

Many of the sounds are slightly different" - that doesn't seem to be true.

Are you sure?  I'll have to recheck that, but it would be odd that I put it in there if it wasn't true.  Maybe it was the emulator I was using at the time?

[www.atarimania.com]

2 hours ago, Kr0tki said:

Yes, Atarimania hosts DOS binary files of both protos. Although them being binary files grabbed from the Internet, it's possible they are not 100% original. For example, the Ballblaster file on Atarimania has the title screen text "Lucasfilms Ltd", which seems suspicious - because there exists another copy available e.g. at AtariOnline.pl, which has the text "A Lucasfilm Ltd Production" instead, but is otherwise identical. This means one of these versions is a hack of another, but I'm not sure which is the original (though I think it's the latter).

 

This is an extremely old file, I really need to change it...

 

BTW, Rescue Mission was taken from this disk along with Ballblaster:

0596B - 664 - Misc Games.atr

[Kr0tki]

Thanks. FWIW that disk contains a version of "Ballblaster" with the "A Lucasfilm Ltd Production" text. If we assume that this diskette is a "low-generation" copy of the Atari leak, then it would suggest that the "Lucasfilms Ltd" version was hacked later.

 

Hey I'm having a Jaggi fever now, here's another bunch of BJL<->RoF differences!

- In BJL after finishing a level it's possible to skip only 2 levels using the Select key; In RoF it's possible to skip 3, and you can use Joystick Up to do it as well.

- In BJL after reaching planet surface the Lock-On Indicator lights turn on one-by-one, despite no locking-on taking place; after that they return to normal.

[Kr0tki]

18 hours ago, Tempest said:

I think they do in the 8-bit Cartridge version

I checked and don't see any differences in the launch sequence between all versions. Can you verify that?

18 hours ago, Tempest said:

Are you sure?  I'll have to recheck that, but it would be odd that I put it in there if it wasn't true.  Maybe it was the emulator I was using at the time?

It is possible it was the reason. Rechecking might be hard though, as you have once metioned that you don't have the 2-13-84 prototype ROM anymore. (BTW. the 1-18-84 prototype is still pending review ?)

Edited March 8, 2022 by Kr0tki

[Tempest]

1 hour ago, Kr0tki said:

I checked and don't see any differences in the launch sequence between all versions. Can you verify that?

Nope. I guess I was on something when I wrote that...

 

1 hour ago, Kr0tki said:

 (BTW. the 1-18-84 prototype is still pending review ?)

I completely forgot about that.  I'm going to assume that the 5200 1-18-84 is going to be the similar to the 8-bit Behind Jaggi Lines beta. 

 

EDIT: Nope.  If anything it seems similar to that lost 2-13 proto.  I wonder if they're actually the same?

[+DjayBee]

@SpicyChronos Can you please redump your Stickbear disks as ATX?

235, 236, 239 and 252 from your Feb, 23rd batch.

 

They seem not to be cracked.

Because track 1 has 19 sectors a normal sector copy will not show anything obvious protectionwise.

 

thanks

[SpicyChronos]

4 minutes ago, DjayBee said:

@SpicyChronos Can you please redump your Stickbear disks as ATX?

235, 236, 239 and 252 from your Feb, 23rd batch.

 

They seem not to be cracked.

Because track 1 has 19 sectors a normal sector copy will not show anything obvious protectionwise.

 

thanks

Sure thing.

 

I'll get those dumped as ATX images shortly.

 

I've modified my Panasonic JU-475 drive to be a "flippy" drive, but I seem to be having issues with reading the "flippy" side. I think I am using the correct parameters.

*Using Powershell*
.\dtc.exe -p -f<disk#-flippy>\track_ -i0 -i2 -y -g2 -k2 -b-8
.\a8rawconv.exe -if auto -of atx -v c:\kryo\<disk#-flippy>\track00.1.raw c:\kryo\<disk#A(B).atx

Whenever I use a8rawconv to make a side "B" disk image, it shows:

0160B.atx.log0160-flippy.log

 

 

Any help would be appreciated.

 

[+DjayBee]

59 minutes ago, SpicyChronos said:

Whenever I use a8rawconv to make a side "B" disk image, it shows:

I guess that you are using v0.94.

Try it with 0.92.

 

0.94 wants the B-side as *.0.raw like the A-side. Therefore you need to rename all files.

0.92 needs B-sides as *.1.raw but needs an additional parameter -r.

Edited March 8, 2022 by DjayBee
added info about files

[SpicyChronos]

Hey all,

 

I have uploaded to my Google drive new images of Disks 0235, 0236, 0239 and 0252 as ATX (ATX 03-08-2022.zip) and uploaded the raw data files from KryoFlux as 0235-flippy, 0236-flippy, 0239-flippy and 0252-flippy.

ATX 03-08-2022\0235A - Sticky Bear Opposites.atx
ATX 03-08-2022\0235B - Around the World.atx
ATX 03-08-2022\0236A - Sticky Bear ABC.atx
ATX 03-08-2022\0236B - Sticky Bear Numbers.atx
ATX 03-08-2022\0239A - Sticky Bear Bop.atx
ATX 03-08-2022\0239B - Sticky Bear Bounce.atx
ATX 03-08-2022\0252A - Sticky Bear Shapes.atx
ATX 03-08-2022\0252B - United States Adventure.atx

I also figured out that I needed to add the "-r" switch to a8rawconv to create the "B" side.

 

With this, I should be able to create ATX images of any copied, copy-protected, or original disks now. Woo!!!

 

Also, attached are the pictures of the disks. As you can see, these are copies of the originals. I don't have the originals, so if anyone has these, please share.  This helps out @DjayBee.

 

Enjoy!

[SpicyChronos]

Question about imaging hard sectored disks... Since the 1050 (with Happy) and Indus GT drives don't use the index hole... and I had both back in the day, I got a bunch of hard sectored disks cheap, and now I'm using KryoFlux and my Panasonic "Flippy" drive to image them. If it is a standard non-protected disk, will I be able to create a ATR image? I can always use my APE interface to make ATRs, if it fails. I have dumped a few disks so far, but I haven't attempted to make ATRs yet. If I have a copied protected disk on a hard sectored disk, will I run into any troubles?

 

I'll find out tomorrow, as I'm stopping for the evening.

 

Thanks.

[_The Doctor__]

for flux dumping it will be an issue... for standard Atari drives it won't... save the XF551 where you would have the to have the mitsumi mech and cover the index jacket hole to read on a normal sio chain... been there done that...

[+DjayBee]

21 hours ago, SpicyChronos said:

I have uploaded to my Google drive new images of Disks 0235, 0236, 0239 and 0252 as ATX (ATX 03-08-2022.zip)

Thanks, all of these work and as I suspected, all Stickybears are protected. The US Adventure disk is also protected.

?

 

You should check your ATR-dumping equipment/software because some of your ATR-dumps are not correct.

I expected that Around the World would also be protected, because your ATR from Feb 23rd crashes. This seems not to be the case, because an ATR which I generated from the new ATX works fine, but your first dump is bad. On nearly every sector the 3rd byte is wrong:

 

 

Yesterday I have seen similar behaviour with one of the Stickybear dumps.

 

21 hours ago, SpicyChronos said:

Also, attached are the pictures of the disks.

Thanks again but not worth the effort for non-originals.

We are only interested in pictures of originals to put them on the a8preservation webserver together with information about the dump.

 

hours ago, SpicyChronos said:

I'm using KryoFlux and my Panasonic "Flippy" drive to image them. If it is a standard non-protected disk, will I be able to create a ATR image?

I doubt that.

Too many index pulses will confuse everything; and with a hard-sectored disk, you have 18 of them per rotation.

I am no dumper myself but from what I believe to have understood, a working index pulse is mandatory for Kryoflux. So even covering the index hole will not work because then Kryoflux fails.

Edited March 9, 2022 by DjayBee

[SpicyChronos]

Thank you for the feedback.

 

I possibly had either dirty heads ('ve cleaned them many times, after finding a disk died and lost it's magnetic media), or I think it might have been an issue with the PC I was using. So I've checked my PC, added some more RAM, and switched to a SSD. I've checked all the drives I'm using 1050s (Happy (Original and Clone (AtariMax), US Doubler (Original and @Nezgar's ROM) and a Mini-Speedy). Drives have been serviced for capacitor replacements, re-soldered the SIO connectors and added hardware to secure the SIO connectors to the PCB. The only other modification I made to them is a reset button, and a write-protect bypass circuit.

 

So in the meantime, I am going through all the images I've made, and making a list for re-dumps, etc...

[+DjayBee]

I found it:

 

@Nezgar can give you more details. 

[BillC]

On 3/8/2022 at 5:27 PM, SpicyChronos said:

Question about imaging hard sectored disks... Since the 1050 (with Happy) and Indus GT drives don't use the index hole... and I had both back in the day, I got a bunch of hard sectored disks cheap, and now I'm using KryoFlux and my Panasonic "Flippy" drive to image them. If it is a standard non-protected disk, will I be able to create a ATR image? I can always use my APE interface to make ATRs, if it fails. I have dumped a few disks so far, but I haven't attempted to make ATRs yet. If I have a copied protected disk on a hard sectored disk, will I run into any troubles?

 

I'll find out tomorrow, as I'm stopping for the evening.

 

Thanks.

I don't know about the Kyroflux, but when I tried dumping a hard sectored disk with a Greaseweazle/modified JU475 it zipped through the disk very quickly. I think the GW interprets every index pulse as a disk rotation.

Edited March 10, 2022 by BillC

[Zarxx]

Same experience as BillC with SC Pro

4 hours ago, BillC said:

I don't know about the Kyroflux, but when I tried dumping a hard sectored disk with a Greaseweazle/modified JU475 it zipped through the disk very quickly. I think the GW interprets every index pulse as a disk rotation.

 

I've had a few of these and you have two choices.

If non protected and the sector map is not required, copy it onto a normal disk and dump that. The other method is take out the inner disk and cover over all the holes but one and then dump normally (I think last time I cut out the inner ring of a normal disk and taped that on - lining up one hole).

Edited March 10, 2022 by Zarxx