Is the Amico dead?

[kevtris]

As previously mentioned, here's some things about the hardware I noticed over the years.  This is technical in nature so if you don't know a diode from a dingus it might not be too helpful to you.  anyways...

 

These three following stills are from a video (Meet Amico™ - Updated Controller Design & Features-G2Ij5qFMWuE.mp4)  INTV posted on 12/3/2019... over 2 years ago.

 

 

As tommy is walking through the office quickly, you get to see 5 PCBs pinned up to the guy's cube wall.  They are (left to right, top to bottom) controller PCB, two versions of the main PCB... the blue one is unpopulated, the red one appears to be populated and is probably an older version/proto.  The bottom row is a panel of 5 LED boards (for the LEDs on the sides of the base unit) and two PCB's of the charging PCB on 1 panel I believe; this sits under the controller wells and connects to the charging contacts.  It might have some other things like power supply components but I can't tell.

 

 

This next one is the CAD view for the controller PCB.  Several interesting things are visible- you can clearly see the 64 segments for the disc, three chips above it (LED controllers or analog muxers for the disc?), and in the upper right corner the footprint for the ESP32 which is the brains of the controller. 

 

 

And finally the PCB for the controller; we get a pretty good closeup shot of it.  The ESP32 module is clearly visible in the upper right corner, and this picture is good enough to find the exact model of it.  You can see the LEDs for the disc and the buttons, so this is the newer version of the controller with the buttons on the corners instead of the middle.  Remember this was the tail end of 2019 for all this!  They literally did no work on the hardware it seems in over 2 years.  It's like someone shut a switch off and all work ceased.

 

 

Pretty sure this is the one- an Espressif ESP32-WROVER-B.  The markings appear to match.

 

 

The footprint does too, complete with that pad on the bottom, seems to line up with the PCB design.

 

This image is from a later video (Meet Amico™ - Hardware Design-NTh3-Kx0O6I.mp4) from 10/11/2020.. a bit over 10 months later.

 

 

So I was right on the charging PCB, you can see it there.  It's T shaped and contains the pins for the "wireless" charging <cough>, the power button, and little else.  Interestingly it is connected with a dual row .1" connector set up for ribbon cables.  Think the ribbon cables floppy drives used.  Why would they use something so old?  Why not a flat flex cable like the cool kids use?  They are cheaper, easier to install during manufacturing and are much smaller.  The boomer design ethic is showing through I guess.  We can see the ribbon cable when they show the cutaway view briefly in the same video.  That top PCB also houses their NFC for the RFID stuff.

 

 

There's so many ways they could've saved money on this design.  It's waaay too complex, and no consideration seems to have been taken for reducing complexity of the internal parts to make it cheaper to produce.  There's a lot of ways this could've been simplified if they had to retain all the same features.  Putting the LEDs on the main board and using light pipes would've saved them 2 PCBs and all the associated connectors.  The plastics were stupidly complicated too, as can be seen in their assembly video.  Also interesting is they used double stick tape to assemble it, holding the light bar for the LEDs in place, and to hold the plastic trim on.  I hope that's just for prototypes and not production!

 

 

This is from a video (This is Amico™-m2aSUxuZPEI.mp4) posted on 2/24/21.  We can see the parts are still pretty much the same, though we can see the underside of the two LED boards and the NFC/power button/LED board.  There's two sets of connectors to connect the LED boards.  Why didn't they just make this all one board instead of three?  it would've been cheaper and there wouldn't have been a need for those connectors which take time (money) to install during manufacturing when the units are being assembled.

 

 

we get a rare look at the main PCB.  There's hardly anything on it.  I can spot a few things like regulators.   I'm glad they spent the time to put their running man logo on the PCB instead of working on less important things like software and certifications.

 

 

There's the dual row .1" spacing "floppy drive" ribbon cable.  haha

 

 

and there's the double stick tape for the LED lens on the front. lol.  The hilarious part is there's screwholes under this area, and they didn't pin these plastic parts to the unit with them.  I don't know why this is.

 

 

Apparently the plastic piece that covers the LED lens was only available in glacier white and not galaxy purple.  Sure looks funny sitting on there.

 

[kevtris]

39 minutes ago, Rev said:

Great insight.   So, would it be wise, or is it industry standard to wait until the “last minute” so to speak, or are all these FCC/CE certifications typically done as soon as possible?  Of course, every company is different. 
 

Example. A product launches in December. What is a general rule in months prior to launch. 
 

thanks again!

You want to do it as soon as you can, because there's a very high chance of not passing, and needing fixes.  There is absolutely no advantage to waiting!  If you wait, you're not going to make it to market on time.  I 100% believe they failed and didn't have the money to redo the design, or add shielding or whatever else they had to do to get it to pass.  Adding in the radios and stuff just made it that much worse.  Even if you use a premade module like they did, I believe you still have to certify the entire device, and you cannot just go by the module's certification.

 

[roadrunner]

5 hours ago, MrBeefy said:

There's an app for that. Or well extension. But still no negative comments!

 

Anyone notice the color change in the purple console?

 

It no longer has the blue hue. I don't think it will have a special paint anymore like advertised.

Initial

 

2nd go notice the blue on the right.

 

 

New one without the blue.

 

 

 

 

What you get...

 

 

 

Yes, i had to use a extension to see the dislikes.

 

[youxia]

1 hour ago, mr_me said:

We've only seen, maybe half the games in active development.  I'm talking about what's been played at events 

How can you know what is in "active" development at this stage? Or how many programmers are working on their games, seeing as you gave the "couple dozen" estimate?

[mr_me]

We don't know what's in active development.  We only know what's been played at events.  They claim forty games in active development or complete, down from fifty.

 

Someone asked how many Amicos are there and I made a guesstimate, to show it's more than two or three.  They were building Amicos, for their developers, in 2019 and 2020 by hand at a cost of about $700 each.

[digdugnate]

1 hour ago, mr_me said:

We don't know what's in active development.  We only know what's been played at events.  They claim forty games in active development or complete, down from fifty.

 

Someone asked how many Amicos are there and I made a guesstimate, to show it's more than two or three.  They were building Amicos, for their developers, in 2019 and 2020 by hand at a cost of about $700 each.

What is the source of your $700 cost?  Guesstimate is another word for 'I don't know what I'm talking about and I'm full of it'.

[1980gamer]

38 minutes ago, digdugnate said:

What is the source of your $700 cost?  Guesstimate is another word for 'I don't know what I'm talking about and I'm full of it'.

Hand built... Time is money.  An engineer making $125 / hour will drive this price up quickly.

 

I am certain they didn't have grunts building these.  How hand made are they?  Boards assembled and just putting them together?  Or placing components?  What do they use to flow the solder?

Failure rates etc.etc.  I can easily see this amount, even if they didn't.

 

I think I remember them saying 700 parts in each console. I am guessing that includes 2 controllers.

 

 

[mr_me]

The $700 comes from the company.  It's in the range discussed here, building them by hand.  Getting components in small quantities, boards fabricated in small quantities are all expensive, plus labour as 1980gamer pointed out.

 

A couple dozen Amicos is not a big number.  They have third party developers and they made developer units for them, plus the ones they have in their offices including, Salt Lake, Germany, Middle East.

[MrBeefy]

2 hours ago, kevtris said:

This is from a video (This is Amico™-m2aSUxuZPEI.mp4) posted on 2/24/21.  We can see the parts are still pretty much the same, though we can see the underside of the two LED boards and the NFC/power button/LED board.  There's two sets of connectors to connect the LED boards.  Why didn't they just make this all one board instead of three?  it would've been cheaper and there wouldn't have been a need for those connectors which take time (money) to install during manufacturing when the units are being assembled.

 

 

we get a rare look at the main PCB.  There's hardly anything on it.  I can spot a few things like regulators.   I'm glad they spent the time to put their running man logo on the PCB instead of working on less important things like software and certifications.

 

So how much extra cost did they add to this by their design choice/multiple boards?

2 hours ago, kevtris said:

You want to do it as soon as you can, because there's a very high chance of not passing, and needing fixes.  There is absolutely no advantage to waiting!  If you wait, you're not going to make it to market on time.  I 100% believe they failed and didn't have the money to redo the design, or add shielding or whatever else they had to do to get it to pass.  Adding in the radios and stuff just made it that much worse.  Even if you use a premade module like they did, I believe you still have to certify the entire device, and you cannot just go by the module's certification.

 

So assuming they did pass all their emission and assuming they have the money to get the certs, why hold up?

 

How much/type of changes could they make to the hardware without needing a recertification?

 

[MrBeefy]

I think someone wanted more attention on them than the devs, but this is the type of stuff intelevision should have been doing a long time ago. Simple interviews like this one get me more excited than almost anything else IE does.

 

https://www.thegeekgetaway.com/2022/04/exclusive-interview-with-intellivision.html

 

Older one:

https://www.thegeekgetaway.com/2021/02/i-talked-with-bonus-level-entertainment.html?m=1

Edited April 12, 2022 by MrBeefy

[orange808]

Well, I thought about going through all the things Intellivision did that put off game devs, but I'd almost have to write a book. I can't hit all the topics.

 

First of all, the developer portal was tardy and they should have had devs working with cell phones paired to a simulator early on--especially given the company wanted exclusive titles. High quality games take well over a year to develop (probably two)--and it's virtually impossible to make a good game (that even meets high quality NES era standards) without time and a team. I also got mixed messages on rather or not INTV wanted any games with substance. One moment we're talking Earthworm Jim and a Fox N Forests port, the next moment I hear the games have to be "simple". Apparently, a bad Armor Ambush rehash thing and cornhole are killer apps in the 2020's? You're kidding me, right?

 

Everyone and their damn dog thinks they can make a game these days. They're wrong. Everyone can make shovelware. We have a term for it and there's a reason why.

 

Speaking of development, time, and team, how the heck were any of us going to jump in and pay bills with a ten dollar price cap and only $5 gross per unit? Don't care if that changed or not. The damage was done. INTV needed devs to get in when this thing was in the cradle. No, not some kid playing around with Unity in his bedroom after school for giggles (with stolen assets). I mean real devs. I can't figure out how anybody could have planned anything that was properly ambitious. Who could/can afford to make an exclusive with any ambition? Nobody.

 

That leads me into those pompous development commandments. I'd need to be salaried to tolerate something like that while I'm working--and I'd still be making fun of the commandments behind your back. I just can't help it. ?The tone of the guidelines are so over the top and hamfisted, not to mention the misguided ideas the "commandments" present, I don't have the words to describe it. Let's just say it put me off.

 

Asking for all simple games on a console in the 2020's is the road to ruin. OUYA already speculated that people really wanted to put their phones down and gather in front of a television with a controller for casual gaming. OUYA was wrong about that. Nothing has changed since, has it? Guess what? People really do want to play casual games on the train or in bed--and they are perfectly content to do it on a mobile. Do they miss sitting in front of the television? I don't think so. Another thing, too:  OUYA thought they could entertain people with cheap shovelware from hobbyists; it didn't work for them, why would it work for Intellivision?

 

Still talking OUYA, it actually shipped to retail at $99 (and they managed to get the controller into a tolerable state). I can't see how a waggle controller, lights, and a dial will make the Amico worth the asking price. How will the machine get a decent install base? It won't.

 

From the very beginning, it seems like this entire platform was mostly for hobby devs--and those hobbyists were asked to jump through a lot of silly obtuse hoops along the way. For what? If I had to boil down the entire dev proposition to one sentence, I have always heard:  "you aren't going to make any money".

 

They were making $700 machines for devs that didn't care if they made money? That's bonkers. What kind of results will you get?

 

Speaking of hobby development: if Intellivision follows through with their QA, how many of these games (that may be submitted) will meet standards? Do they even have anyone left in the office to test software for all their target localizations? Do they have a proper QA checklist document and a process for approval for the store? Let's hope they don't talk to devs the way the commandments read or with the tone I heard from Tommy. Most of us won't put up with that kind of shit.

 

I hear they don't want games patched, right? Amico is connected to the network, but we can't push patches? Really?? Why doesn't anything about this machine make sense? If you're arbitrarily limiting patches from your store, you have an obligation to your customers to handle the additional QA (in house) to guarantee quality. Games are the entire point and the experience (right or wrong) always reflects on the hardware manufacturer and store host. You can say it wasn't your fault, but perception is reality--and perception is everything.

 

Why would Intellivision want to make everything more difficult than it needs to be? I understood why I got hammered trying to get approval for mobile storefronts years ago, when mobile bandwidth was extremely expensive. That made perfect sense. Carriers and users paid for that bandwidth and we had to get it right the first time. I couldn't have users downloading their app multiple times--and there was no mechanism for patching software on those devices. But... On a console, at home, on wifi, and in 2022? Not so much.

 

Assuming the moderation of this conversation around here has actually changed, my post won't mysteriously disappear, and we can speak honestly:  why would anyone expect much of anything from the INTV development environment?

Edited April 12, 2022 by orange808
had to patch my comment :-)

[IMBerzerk]

6 hours ago, Rev said:

Where is a definitive list of games for Amico again?  Im too lazy to look. Someone google it for me. 

Hang on... it's still loading... getting there.. gotta be huge!!

 

Damn.. website crashed.  Sorry, I'll try again later... maybe.

[Cebus Capucinis]

I wouldn't worry. There's literally DOZENS of programmers working on the issue as we speak. DOZENS.

[phoenixdownita]

2 hours ago, orange808 said:

...

That leads me into those pompous development commandments. I'd need to be salaried to tolerate something like that while I'm working--and I'd still be making fun of the commandments behind your back. I just can't help it. ?The tone of the guidelines are so over the top and hamfisted, not to mention the misguided ideas the "commandments" present, I don't have the words to describe it. Let's just say it put me off.

...

I've never heard of those "commandments" or the undertone they were written as.

 

If it doesn't lend you into trouble (NDA etc...) and without posting pages of them, I'd like if you could share same of them.

[kevtris]

Just now, phoenixdownita said:

I've never heard of those "commandments" or the undertone they were written as.

 

If it doesn't lend you into trouble (NDA etc...) and without posting pages of them, I'd like if you could share same of them.

tommy posted them loud and proud. 

 

 

[Matt_B]

Things might have gone a lot better if the first two commandments were to get the console out on time and at the originally promised price. ?

[+fdr4prez]

1 hour ago, Cebus Capucinis said:

I wouldn't worry. There's literally DOZENS of programmers working on the issue as we speak. DOZENS.

 

[phoenixdownita]

1 hour ago, kevtris said:

tommy posted them loud and proud. 

 

 

6 and 10 together make the single controller SKU at least mildly challenging as now also "every games MUST support smart-phone control" as without that the "affordable" SKU has no family value.

I believe they already ate up number 5.

Not sure 3 alone makes a game fun but I guess it's the marketing gizmo under the name of Karma Engine (as I said elsewhere Karma really is a bitch)
Would a Final Fantasy 7+ qualify for 7? How about a Panzer Dragoon? .... wonder wonder. None of them is free roaming.

 

8 has a weird part, never heard of an exclusive port, I get he means exclusive content but with 5 in place I am not sure what the incentive to port really is, 'cause one MUST create extra stuff which adds cost on top of the port ... I guess maybe a simple main character reskin would qualify (like a spotted PacMan acne edition or maybe just have the ghosts wear mascara for the flamboyant edition, or a lavender pants Crazy Climber Jon Bon Jovi edition, or a yellow Galaga ship jaundice edition).

 

9 I get it but if you also dictate MSRP (from 5) you're kind of getting what you pay for at that point.

 

Then there's 1 .... even Nintendo has non-E games ... I understand the intent but when little bobby tables goes to bed why punishing the adults, it would also get the platform more exposure ... granted the Wii already proved that a gimmick controller does not really work for a whole class of games (like a whole lot of them) as you need real buttons (shoulder included), and a real grip etc...etc...

 

2 is easy, just do not include any instruction and let them guess ... you know like many games are doing anyway.

 

4 is something we've seen elsewhere, it tries to be anti-shovelware I guess, or does he really only mean "quality" as in "no major bugs" (you know like Coleco Chameleon Mike's pitch to ask developer to not put bugs in their games ... as if) .... maybe they wanted to mimic the Nintendo of old ... not sure even Nintendo still harps as much on it.

 

 

PS: thinking of Panzer Dragoon and the Amico controller they could actually finally allow the player to pat the poor bestie via the controller touch screen, you know rub behind the ears, pat on the head etc... 

[roadrunner]

I couldn't find a Amico games list but found these two articles.


Intellivision Amico boxed games go on sale, for console still without launch date
$150 for eight titles.
Tom Phillips 
News by Tom Phillips  Deputy Editor
Updated on 11 Oct 2021


https://www.eurogamer.net/intellivision-amico-games-go-on-sale-for-console-still-without-launch-date


----

Amico games are available now, despite the console not having a release date
THE BOXED TITLES COME AS RFID CARDS WHICH CAN STILL BE SOLD ON TO OTHER PLAYERS



https://www.videogameschronicle.com/news/amico-games-are-available-now-despite-the-console-not-having-a-release-date/
 

[roots.genoa]

10 hours ago, kevtris said:

you won't end up with a hot pocket

And yet I know people who would actually enjoy that! ?

 

9 hours ago, kevtris said:

I'm glad they spent the time to put their running man logo on the PCB instead of working on less important things like software and certifications.

You're obviously no industry legend in the gaming industry. ? As I said before, you always start developing a video game with the title and the cover art. ?

[roadrunner]

Found the games list -

From wiki 
 

Games
According to Tallarico, all games for the Amico will be both single player and multiplayer, with local cooperative play.[38] Six games will come included with the Amico, and more than 20 additional games are expected to be available at launch.[38] Five of the six included games have been announced as Skiing, Astrosmash, Shark! Shark!, Cornhole, and Farkle, with the sixth game being a party game.[36] Digitally downloaded games will generally be priced at $9.99 (€8.49) or less, while physical copies of games will be available at retail for US$19.99 (€17.99).[25][37] In July 2021, the first 50,000 run of physical game products for both Europe and North America were manufactured.[39]
 

Title    Developer    Source
10 Yard Fight        [29]
ACL Cornhole        [40]
Archon    React Games    [29]
Asteroids        [29]
Astrosmash    Rogue Rocket Games    [29]
B-17 Bomber⁑        [29]
Back Talk Party        [36]
Bad Dudes⁑        [29]
Baseball        [29]
Beauty and the Beast⁑        [41]
Biplanes    WastedStudios    [38]
Blank Slate        [42]
Bomb Squad    International Headquarters    [36]
Bowling        [29]
Boxing        [29]
Brain Duel    BBG Entertainment    [38]
Breakout    Choice Provisions    [29]
Bump 'n' Jump        [17]
Caveman Ninja        [29]
Care Bears Care Karts    PlayDate Digital    [19]
Cloudy Mountain*    Other Ocean    [29]
Darts        [36]
Demon Attack        [29]
Dolphin Quest    Playchemy    [17]
Dracula        [29]
Dragon Fire⁑        [41]
Dynablaster    BBG Entertainment    [38]
Earthworm Jim 4    Intellivision Entertainment    [43]
Emoji Charades    GameCake    [44]
Evel Knievel    Barnstorm Games    [38]
Farkle    Spaceflower    [37]
Finnigan Fox    Bonus Level Entertainment    [38]
Flying Tigers        [17]
Frog Bog        [29]
Horse Racing        [29]
Hot Wheels Colossal Crash        [42]
Ice Trek        [41]
Incan Gold / Diamont        [42]
Jungle Hunt        [36]
Kung-Fu Master        [29]
Liar's Dice    The Bitmap Brothers    [42]
Lode Runner    Tozai Games    [41]
Math Fun        [45]
Miner 2049er        [29]
Missile Command    Stainless Games    [38]
MLB Baseball        [41]
Moon Patrol: The Milky Way Chronicles    WastedStudios    [38]
MotoRace USA        [29]
Night Driver        [29]
Night Stalker    Other Ocean    [17]
Nitro Derby    Chicken Waffle    [42]
Pong    Way Digital Studios    [36]
Pool    Pool Legends IVS    [36]
R-Type        [29]
Rigid Force Redux Enhanced    com8com1, Headup    [42]
Sesame Street games        [42]
Shark! Shark!    Neobird, Bonus Level Entertainment    [29]
Skiing    Aesir Interactive    [17]
Snafoo    Thera Bytes    [29]
Space Strikers    Couch in the Woods Interactive    [42]
Spades*    Concrete Software    [36]
Spelunker        [29]
Soccer        [17]
Super BurgerTime        [45]
Tank Battle    Lost Mesa Entertainment    [24]
Telestrations        [42]
Tempest        [29]
A Toejam and Earl title        [45]
Tron Deadly Discs[46]    Other Ocean    [29]
Tropical Angel        [29]
Utopia        [36]
Warlords    Stainless Games    [36]
Yar's Revenge    

 

[Steven Pendleton]

5 hours ago, orange808 said:

Speaking of development, time, and team, how the heck were any of us going to jump in and pay bills with a ten dollar price cap and only $5 gross per unit?

This is something that I had long wondered about, and I believe I asked Tommy about it once. Obviously the amount of purchases that you need to make profit, or just to break even, will vary by game, but larger development cost = higher break-even point. Breaking even is technically "good" since that allows you to stay in business, but nobody wants to break even if it's possible to make profit instead.

 

I always wondered about how much cash the smaller Amico developers would have made, but for larger developers, like Sega, who I believe was said to be interested in the system, I was always unsure of how they were actually on board with the system in the first place, as it's entirely possible that their development costs, which would almost certainly be larger than those of smaller developers with like some random dude in his bedroom coding the game and like his brother doing the art and the music and literally nobody else, combined with a relatively small userbase of likely less than 1,000,000 households, which I believe Tommy said he would have loved to sell, as I believe that's about 1% of the total Wii sales, means Sega, or other larger developers, would possibly have to sell copies to the majority of the Amico owners just to break even. Even if they make profit, it's like... why not put those development costs into releasing the same thing on Steam instead and reach the entire PC community (who absolutely loves Sega if you didn't know, especially in Europe, mostly because of Football Simulator), and make possibly a much larger amount of profit on the same game?

 

Like I said, without actual numbers for development costs or the number of Amico consoles sold (which of course doesn't exist at this point), it's hard to say, but this is just me wondering and also being bored enough to type all of this.

[youxia]

6 hours ago, orange808 said:

why would anyone expect much of anything from the INTV development environment?

Silly question. Simply because the world's top devs are on board, and they are being offered everything they always wanted, so naturally they are all floored and excited about Amico!!11!

 

Quote

Every developer is absolutely floored and excited about the system. We currently have 20 hand-picked developers signed up. And a lot of them reached out to us after they saw the initial trailer. Honestly... we've only spoken to 1 developer (and they were kids in their 20's) who didn't get it and didn't "long for the old days". We are offering EVERYTHING they've always wanted, dreamed and asked for. Any developer who is negative about the system (I've read a few things on other message boards) have not spoken with us and just saw the trailer and started assuming a bunch of stuff that wasn't true. We will be releasing a list of developers leading up to E3. Some of the top developers in the world are working on it and we'll be getting a lot of them on film at E3 to share with everyone in a special developer trailer. Without super creative and happy developers... then the system fails. We have the most unique approach to game developers that anyone has ever seen. Why? Because the folks making the system have all been developers for 30 - 40 years and we know the problems they face

Behold, the wrath of Wayback Machine....

Edited April 12, 2022 by youxia

[Steven Pendleton]

2 hours ago, Steven Pendleton said:

Football Simulator

lol oops, that's Football Manager, not Football Simulator. You probably knew that I mean that anyway, right...?

[digdugnate]

10 hours ago, mr_me said:

The $700 comes from the company.  It's in the range discussed here, building them by hand.  Getting components in small quantities, boards fabricated in small quantities are all expensive, plus labour as 1980gamer pointed out.

 

A couple dozen Amicos is not a big number.  They have third party developers and they made developer units for them, plus the ones they have in their offices including, Salt Lake, Germany, Middle East.

It looks like you're counting 'busy work' and extra offices in that $700 cost to make the dev units.  

 

Why not just add in the full year's salary for each extra employee, plus costs for extra offices and say that each dev unit cost $100k?