Getting into the ST?

[T.A.P.]

I've spent my fair share of time playing with all of Atari's major formats, except for the ST line.

 

Well, not the 5200, but I don't really have any interest in that.

 

How hard and expensive is it to get into Atari ST computers these days? Is it worth it? Are there very many fun and interesting games that are exclusive to the line?

[Justin Payne]

I've been an Atari fan since the arcades and PONG so I go way back. When Atari went into the 16-bit era, I followed. As I look back, I realized that the Amiga was the proper path for a the Atari fan. That being said, I enjoyed my 520ST a whole lot but it never did capture the enjoyment I had with my 8-bit Atari's.
The good news is the Atari's, except for a few models, won't cost you as much as an Amiga BUT to get the full experience IMO, you'll need both the color and monochrome monitors. I LOVE the monochrome. That Sh1t is crisp! Not a ton of games for it but if there is, I play them. Medium res, with it's 4 colors is kinda limited so you'll probably spend your time in low or high res.
There is also the issue with all of the models which did improve the overall experience but tends to make devs still developer for the older systems since they want to attract the largest purchasing audience. This means that if you get a system with great capabilities, not a ton of games take advantage of it. I did, however, see some advantage in  Mega STE's 16mhz mode that made some sluggish games run at an acceptable framerate (I'm looking at you Knights of the Sky) but aftermarket upgrades can give your this ability. 
Since most of the games on the ST also exist on the Amiga and tend not to run as fast and sound as good, I think you might run into some regret.
Hopefully I didn't say something that's too far off the mark. I really hate to dis on my beloved Atari but I'm an honest guy and would never steer anyone wrong.

[darwinmac]

@Justin Payne does a good job of describing the ST. For me, I bought it back in 1987 because it was truly “Power without the price”. As a college student, even the Amiga was out of my price range. 
 

I still love the ST and had lots of fun with it. However, you either need: the original monitors (agree with Justin on how sharp the mono monitor is), a monitor that can do 15kHz, or a scan converter that can adapt the ST’s signal to something that a modern monitor can understand. There’s another thread here talking about a Dell monitor that supports the ST’s refresh rate. If you’re lucky enough to be in Europe, then a SCART TV is an option as well. To be fair, the Amiga has a similar display problem with modern monitors. 
 

I would also agree that most Amiga games look and sound better. Since I used my ST for work as well as play, it was the best choice for me and I’d do it again. However, in 2022, I’m assuming you want to simply play games on it. If you haven’t had an ST in the past, you won’t have the nostalgia for it now. 
 

Bob C 

[T.A.P.]

Thanks for the input guys!

 

I'm looking for honesty, so I don't mind hearing that it might not be worth pursuing the ST stuff. I'd rather learn that now instead of after buying a system and regretting it.

Edited March 19, 2022 by T.A.P.

[Bee]

Depending on where you are,  what is out there vaires.  The ST in my opinion has games like Space Harrier,  Dragon's Lair are just classic. I have built out a few  STs refilling the hole from my youth.

 

I hope that helps

 

Thank you

 

PM sent 

Edited March 19, 2022 by Bee

[Lostdragon]

5 hours ago, T.A.P. said:

Thanks for the input guys!

 

I'm looking for honesty, so I don't mind hearing that it might not be worth pursuing the ST stuff. I'd rather learn that now instead of after buying a system and regretting it.

I was a 520STFM owner at the time, had previously owned Atari systems in the form of the 2600 and 800XL.

 

Went with the ST over the Amiga as it was £100 cheaper and came bundled with a lot of software. 

 

 

In the long years after, been lucky enough to 'speak' with various coders artists etc who worked on ST software, dabbled with looking into games that never made it, so interest in the machine stayed with me. 

 

 

But, i honestly now can't think of anything I would actively play on the ST that isn't done better on the Amiga. 

 

The slightly faster 3D on the ST doesn't counter the lack of hardware scrolling, more limited colour palette and terrible sound chip. 

 

It was a great budget machine for it's time, my entry into 16-bit gaming, so it will always have a place in my heart. 

[ParanoidLittleMan]

There are only few Atari ST exclusive games.  One is Diamond Ice - very good scrolling despite all bad said and lack of HW scrolling. Very similar is Heartland 2000 .

Usually, when some game is good it will pull interest, and SW companies, programmers want to convert it for other popular computers. 

Space Harrier and Dragon's Lair were first on arcade machines - later used laser disc, for instance.

Terrible sound chip ? I don't agree. It is not DMA, so whole sound generation is different, but surely not worse than usual sound chips in 8-bitters, despite some claims like that C64 sound is much better. Typical case of being used on specific tone, and then everything different must be worse. 

For instance I like more Xenon2 music on ST than on Amiga - on later it is too soft. So, not for hardcore shooter ?

 

[Lostdragon]

16 minutes ago, ParanoidLittleMan said:

There are only few Atari ST exclusive games.  One is Diamond Ice - very good scrolling despite all bad said and lack of HW scrolling. Very similar is Heartland 2000 .

Usually, when some game is good it will pull interest, and SW companies, programmers want to convert it for other popular computers. 

Space Harrier and Dragon's Lair were first on arcade machines - later used laser disc, for instance.

Terrible sound chip ? I don't agree. It is not DMA, so whole sound generation is different, but surely not worse than usual sound chips in 8-bitters, despite some claims like that C64 sound is much better. Typical case of being used on specific tone, and then everything different must be worse. 

For instance I like more Xenon2 music on ST than on Amiga - on later it is too soft. So, not for hardcore shooter ?

 

Coming from the likes of POKEY and SID, finding the awful AY chip in the ST was a hard pill to swallow. It just felt so out of place in a 16-bit SYSTEM, it was a relic from the 8-bit era, something I expected to find in those horrible electronic doorbells ?

 

 

I always remember Ocean Software's Jonathan Dunn saying even the 128K Sinclair ZX Spectrum had a buzzer that could be used in conjunction with the AY chip and thus that 8 bit platform was capable of more advanced sound techniques than the ST. 

[youxia]

One big exclusive on the ST is Sundog (sci-fi strategy-rpg-sim). Okay, so it's not really an exclusive, but ST version is so much better than Apple original. There are also some other quirky games such as Aliens (strategy) which you won;t find elsewhere. But overall it's true: most of the ST games are either better on Amiga or PC. This affects action-arcade games in particular, since ST's scrolling is not up to scratch. Even so, the differences are not that earth shatrtering in a lot of titles. They're still great games, even if the colours or sound is weaker (about AY, I wouldn't call it "abysmal" but for sure it's not on the level of SID, nevermind Amiga)

 

So I'd say you have to ask yourself what kind of games you are interested in most, and how much the allegiance to Atari brand is important to you. I'm a big Amiga fanboi, never cared for ST a jot back then, but got one recently and quite like it...it was a good budget, but still pioneering, machine at the time.

 

 

 

 

[T.A.P.]

Hmmm, sounds like between the high hardware prices and the lack of exclusive software I probably shouldn't bother with the ST.

[Tillek]

11 hours ago, T.A.P. said:

How hard and expensive is it to get into Atari ST computers these days?

Not hard... usually just takes a screwdriver.

 

But to be serious... in some ways, it's a lot easier.

Some of the people are mentioning scan converters or having to get both of the original monitors.  On the one hand, not sure I agree you really "need" a monochrome monitor if you're just interested in the games (or for that matter, anything really).  I managed back in the day without one and now I really only use mono when working on things for the BBS and I need more screen space.

 

A much better way is to go with the ST to VGA adapter....
https://centuriontech.eu/product/st2vga-r4/

 

And then the Dell SE2722H monitor.
https://www.microcenter.com/product/638580/dell-se2722h-27-full-hd-(1920-x-1080)-75hz-led-monitor

(There is a thread on that below).

 

As for getting software from the PC to the ST... many methods, and people will fight for hours over which one is best.  (J/K, actually the fights last for weeks or months).  You'll find an easy way that works for you.

 

So I guess the question is what you're looking to do with it.  Sundog (mentioned above) is a great game (and actually helped influence my decision and was the first game I got with it).  Granted, I was probably going to go Atari anyway since I was an 8bitter, but that kinda sealed the deal.  But the costs aren't all that bad really when taking that dell monitor into account (and to be fair to the other posters, that's a fairly recent discovery).  To be fair though, the community isn't as big as the Atari 8-bit.

[Zogging Hell]

The apologists are strong on this one!

 

Really, it (the ST) is a great gaming system, a lot of the big name games are pretty much identical on both (bar the sound), it's just the horizontal scrolling games on the ST aren't anywhere near as good as they are on the Amiga generally, and vertical scrolling games have variably lower framerates some of the time, although not to the point it is usually an issue as the ST isn't quite so rubbish at that... and of course the sound chip is a bit... er... marmite. Personally I would say the sound chip is not great, it was originally meant to be the system buzzer chip like the PC has, but it is crisp and high frequency, and will not usually subject you to low res samples of pan pipes which the Amiga excels at, mainly because it can't, although it can make an awful racket in the wrong hands. So I would say if you want to play 16bit platformers and scrolling shoot 'em ups don't buy an ST... buy... a Genesis or SNES instead - as the games the Amiga excels over the ST in are generally better on them, and when it's not one of these, which I think generally a lot of the more interesting titles are not, then the ST is unlikely to disappoint!

 

IMO the big games from that era, Dungeon Master, Populous, Stunt Car Racer (probably better on the ST I would say), the Bitmap Brothers games etc, they are usually just as good on the ST (bar the sound) so reallly don't let the naysayers on the ST put you off . I can think of a few 'big' games where you will have a far superior time with the Amiga... almost anything by Psygnosis, bar Lemmings, and some other early stuff (although I'm not sure much by Psygnosis can be classed as more than a tech demo with questionable gameplay), Turrican (bigger screen, music), Lotus series (smoother, more track detail), Cannon Fodder (the ST has horrible flip screen scrolling), X-Out (bigger screen), R-Type and Secret of Monkey Island (generally better effort) are better to the point I would fire up my Amiga to play them over the ST, I'm struggling to think of anything else though off hand, at least to the point where they were both getting conversions before the ST's death. Up to about 1989, the games were converted mainly from ST to Amiga, so there is really no difference at all in a lot of titles, bar some marginally smoother scrolling and use of the sound chip. Streetfighter is horrible on both, Final Fight is horrible on both. Anything else by Capcom is usually not great due to Tiertex converions. There are no platformers to rival Sonic or Mario or Castlevania on either. There are no horizontal shoot 'em ups that can really compare to the Genesis's finest on either system if I'm honest.

 

And the ST hardware is (still) cheaper to buy than the Amiga due to demand, and collecting original games for it, is also generally cheaper, at least over this side of the pond - the prices of Amiga boxed games are insane nowadays. Agree with Tillek on the monitor front. VGA adaptor for mono with a cheap 4:3 LCD, no need to hunt down one of Atari's tiny screens unless you want to complete the set.

[Justin Payne]

Oh, one thing I forgot to mention. The ST line has midi and some games (not a lot of them) incorporated midi sound in them which sounds awesome. I wish midi playback wasn't so expensive back then or, I think, this could be a gamechanger for the ST line. Heck, I would hope anyone writing a game for the ST today should expect to add midi sound in. For example...

 

[youxia]

58 minutes ago, Zogging Hell said:

The apologists are strong on this one!

I think the word you are looking for are "realists". Overall, quite a cute post, since you're actually admitting what we had already, while trying to put a positive spin on it

[masteries]

Nowadays, if you search patiently, is not hard to find a good deal for an Atari STE

 

A very interesting machine to work for it, for development and entertainment.

 

 

[+DarkLord]

Interesting question, even more interesting responses.

 

I both agree and disagree, with a few points.

 

Initial setup (these days), I agree that it's not that hard to find an ST (and get the STe or Mega STe if you can) in decent shape.

I also agree that it's easier than finding Amiga hardware these days. Retro = hard to find and high prices it seems.  

 

On top of that, there are several, easily added upgrades to enhance your ST experience. Easy to install and use mass storage

devices such as the Ultrasatan (both internal and external versions):

 

https://lotharek.pl/

 

as well as Masteries low-cost solution:

 

https://www.atari-forum.com/viewtopic.php?t=40018

 

Hard drive software is still available and commercially supported by P.Pera and Uwe Seiments' HDDriver:

 

https://atari.8bitchip.info/pphdr.php

 

https://www.hddriver.net/

 

There are also still older versions, easily downloadable by ICD and Atari Corp.

 

Keyboard enhancements such as the "TT Touch" upgrade at Best Electronics.

 

https://www.best-electronics-ca.com/520_1040.htm

 

Mouse upgrades such as the True Mouse from Best Electronics and the Mouster:

 

https://www.best-electronics-ca.com/accesori.htm

 

https://retrohax.net/the-mouster-project-is-here/

 

I absolutely agree with the crispness of the original Atari SC124 monitor - it's danged sharp!

It's great for productivity software and the mono games are nice in the higher resolution. I

beg to differ with people saying there are a "few" mono games. Take a look at this list (my

post with the list is about 3-4 down, and I think that actually has grown):

 

 

Still, I would feel a little bit limited if it was the only mode I had available. The recently

discovered 27" monitor mentioned earlier has gotten very enthusiastic ratings by the

people that have bought it:

 

 

Now to games. I started out with the Atari 8bits and graduated to the ST line. Along

the way, I also owned an A1000 (I really liked it, especially that case and recessed

keyboard - wish I still had it), an A2000, and two A1200's. I think the Amiga is a nice

machine. I had an Amiga owning friend who lived near me. We'd compare the games

as they came out. Early games tended to be pretty generic on both machines. As the

Amiga became more popular in the late 80's, game designers finally seemed to take

more advantage of the machines hardware. Even so, I think the biggest difference is

the sound. Unless you're talking games with MIDI. Then the ST wins - but there's only

a few games that take advantage of MIDI, sad to say. Some games on the Amiga

do scroll better.  Some 3D style games on the ST are faster (especially with > 8mhz

speeds).  There's actually a video on Youtube that compares a large list of Atari and

Amiga games. It's funny, Amiga people watch it and say "wow!, look at the difference!",

and Atari people go "meh". What's more interesting is that I showed it to a couple of

family members who had to ask *me* what the difference was in multiple games

because, not being familiar with them, it was not obvious. 

 

I will agree with this. If you already have a large Amiga hardware collection, complete

with a ton of Amiga games, I'm not sure why you would want them replicated from the

ST line. Unless you're just wanting to complete a retro collection of computers from the

80's. If you do decide to proceed with the ST side of things (and I think you would enjoy

it!) make sure to check out P.Pera's list of HD adapted games (around 1500!):

 

https://atari.8bitchip.info/fromhd3.php#DL

 

Good luck and I hope our responses help you in your queST...  

 

[Zogging Hell]

2 hours ago, youxia said:

I think the word you are looking for are "realists". Overall, quite a cute post, since you're actually admitting what we had already, while trying to put a positive spin on it

Ha, of course, the difference is a pint half empty and one half full..  but I'm certainly not blind to the ST's 'shortcomings', so most definitely with you some of the way to your 'realist' position, just not to the extreme of saying the ST is not worth getting when you can have the old Spanish girlfriend cluttering up your desk with her 'hotbox' and illogically cumbersome modulator boxes!  . I would just argue most of the best games on the 16bit computers are/ were not generally the ones the Amiga hardware has by design generally much, if any, advantage in (sound hardware aside), and the Miggy's hardware hands the ST a beating mainly only in genres that are actually better represented on Sega and Nintendo's console offerings (with a few notable exceptions). Perhaps that is being a realist after all (blast)! 

[Lostdragon]

11 hours ago, Zogging Hell said:

The apologists are strong on this one!

 

Really, it (the ST) is a great gaming system, a lot of the big name games are pretty much identical on both (bar the sound), it's just the horizontal scrolling games on the ST aren't anywhere near as good as they are on the Amiga generally, and vertical scrolling games have variably lower framerates some of the time, although not to the point it is usually an issue as the ST isn't quite so rubbish at that... and of course the sound chip is a bit... er... marmite. Personally I would say the sound chip is not great, it was originally meant to be the system buzzer chip like the PC has, but it is crisp and high frequency, and will not usually subject you to low res samples of pan pipes which the Amiga excels at, mainly because it can't, although it can make an awful racket in the wrong hands. So I would say if you want to play 16bit platformers and scrolling shoot 'em ups don't buy an ST... buy... a Genesis or SNES instead - as the games the Amiga excels over the ST in are generally better on them, and when it's not one of these, which I think generally a lot of the more interesting titles are not, then the ST is unlikely to disappoint!

 

IMO the big games from that era, Dungeon Master, Populous, Stunt Car Racer (probably better on the ST I would say), the Bitmap Brothers games etc, they are usually just as good on the ST (bar the sound) so reallly don't let the naysayers on the ST put you off . I can think of a few 'big' games where you will have a far superior time with the Amiga... almost anything by Psygnosis, bar Lemmings, and some other early stuff (although I'm not sure much by Psygnosis can be classed as more than a tech demo with questionable gameplay), Turrican (bigger screen, music), Lotus series (smoother, more track detail), Cannon Fodder (the ST has horrible flip screen scrolling), X-Out (bigger screen), R-Type and Secret of Monkey Island (generally better effort) are better to the point I would fire up my Amiga to play them over the ST, I'm struggling to think of anything else though off hand, at least to the point where they were both getting conversions before the ST's death. Up to about 1989, the games were converted mainly from ST to Amiga, so there is really no difference at all in a lot of titles, bar some marginally smoother scrolling and use of the sound chip. Streetfighter is horrible on both, Final Fight is horrible on both. Anything else by Capcom is usually not great due to Tiertex converions. There are no platformers to rival Sonic or Mario or Castlevania on either. There are no horizontal shoot 'em ups that can really compare to the Genesis's finest on either system if I'm honest.

 

 

You loose things like the Ice Cream! Ice Cream! sample and more detailed pitch on ST Speedball 2 with the ST version, the Amiga version is the definitive version. 

 

Midnight Resistance features push scrolling on the ST and lacks the animated background graphics and simultaneous 2-player mode the Amiga version offers. 

 

 

Realtime games added extra missions, rear view scanner and I think extra speech, to the 128K ZX Spectrum conversion of Starglider, from the ST version. 

 

 

You loose the wonderful sampled whalesong etc from Amiga Starglider II with the ST version. 

 

 

You loose the heartbeat which added a lot of atmosphere, in ST Popolous... 

 

 

ST Captain Blood is the definitive version. 

 

It is s open-ended. When you 'win' the game, it actually continues, pointless as that might well be. 

The Atari ST version is the only version to feature spoken Bluddian. (the language the inhabitants of the Hydra Galaxy use to communicate. In the game. 

 

Edited March 20, 2022 by Lostdragon

[ParanoidLittleMan]

On 3/19/2022 at 4:33 AM, Lostdragon said:

Coming from the likes of POKEY and SID, finding the awful AY chip in the ST was a hard pill to swallow. It just felt so out of place in a 16-bit SYSTEM, it was a relic from the 8-bit era, something I expected to find in those horrible electronic doorbells ?

 

 

I always remember Ocean Software's Jonathan Dunn saying even the 128K Sinclair ZX Spectrum had a buzzer that could be used in conjunction with the AY chip and thus that 8 bit platform was capable of more advanced sound techniques than the ST. 

That's ridiculous to call some chip 'awful' .  Let see little history: 1985 - Atari ST launched. Amiga 1000 launched. Later costed about 3x more. First one was sold like 10x better (or more) .  And sound system in ST was just one of solutions which costed much less. And not only in matter of manufacturing costs. Doing sound with such 'relic' system meant much less memory, disk space for sound.

 

Another claim, that Spectrum 128 was capable for more advanced sound ?  Because buzzer ? I guess that it was rather some national pride matter - someone British prefers British computer. (Btw. I have Spectrum 128 too).

It is not only sound chip what matters. Atari ST has about 5-6x faster CPU and MFP chip, what can be programmed as timer, for short intervals too. And that is very welcome in sampled sound playback. Not to mention much more RAM .

 

And to demolish some computer just because sound chip is so lame. If AY sound was so awful, how it is that after STE release programmers still made most of games with only AY sound ? People is different. Sound hearing is pretty much personal. Majority was fine with ST sound. All this reminds me on those talking against digital audio when audio CDs appeared on market - how vinyl has much better sound, 'we don't need digital noise' , etc ..

[Zogging Hell]

4 hours ago, Lostdragon said:

You loose things like the Ice Cream! Ice Cream! sample and more detailed pitch on ST Speedball 2 with the ST version, the Amiga version is the definitive version. 

 

Midnight Resistance features push scrolling on the ST and lacks the animated background graphics and simultaneous 2-player mode the Amiga version offers. 

 

 

Realtime games added extra missions, rear view scanner and I think extra speech, to the 128K ZX Spectrum conversion of Starglider, from the ST version. 

 

 

You loose the wonderful sampled whalesong etc from Amiga Starglider II with the ST version. 

 

 

You loose the heartbeat which added a lot of atmosphere, in ST Popolous... 

 

 

ST Captain Blood is the definitive version. 

 

It is s open-ended. When you 'win' the game, it actually continues, pointless as that might well be. 

The Atari ST version is the only version to feature spoken Bluddian. (the language the inhabitants of the Hydra Galaxy use to communicate. In the game. 

 

True, on the Midnight Resistance front the ST version doesn't even have the two player -  it is a pretty shoddy port on the ST. That one was a major disappointment for me.

 

Populous 2 on the other hand, the Amiga AI (if you can call it that) is slower - try pitching the ST against the Amiga with CPU controlled players and see who wins. So not entirely black and white, but I never tried that with the first one admittedly or even if that is an option.

 

Starglider 2, not sure a whalesong track makes up for the slightly slower framerate in game

 

Speedball 2, I will also give you, the Amiga version probably is the best thanks to the sound, although the Megadrive version is a close second IMO - although to be fair the ST, Amiga and Megadrive are so close on this one, there is virtually nothing in it.

[Lostdragon]

1 hour ago, ParanoidLittleMan said:

That's ridiculous to call some chip 'awful' .  Let see little history: 1985 - Atari ST launched. Amiga 1000 launched. Later costed about 3x more. First one was sold like 10x better (or more) .  And sound system in ST was just one of solutions which costed much less. And not only in matter of manufacturing costs. Doing sound with such 'relic' system meant much less memory, disk space for sound.

 

Another claim, that Spectrum 128 was capable for more advanced sound ?  Because buzzer ? I guess that it was rather some national pride matter - someone British prefers British computer. (Btw. I have Spectrum 128 too).

It is not only sound chip what matters. Atari ST has about 5-6x faster CPU and MFP chip, what can be programmed as timer, for short intervals too. And that is very welcome in sampled sound playback. Not to mention much more RAM .

 

And to demolish some computer just because sound chip is so lame. If AY sound was so awful, how it is that after STE release programmers still made most of games with only AY sound ? People is different. Sound hearing is pretty much personal. Majority was fine with ST sound. All this reminds me on those talking against digital audio when audio CDs appeared on market - how vinyl has much better sound, 'we don't need digital noise' , etc ..

It's just a personal opinion, I started my gaming life on the Sinclair ZX81 which had NO sound, then the 2600, before moving onto POKEY via the 800XL and SID via the C64 and fell in love with both. 

 

 

I had friends with ZX Spectrum's and knew how poor the AY chip was in comparison and in my view, it firmly belonged in the 8-bit era. 

 

I'm well aware of the ST history and over here in the UK, it's initial competition was to be the Sinclair QL, which I believe used  a 8049 second processor? 

 

 

Atari made it's choice. 

 

As for British Pride? 

 

 

Not really, I could list a few more key UK studios who really didn't like the ST sound chip, including Sensible Software, who also weren't keen on the Sega Genesis soundchip either, having to bring voice samples down to ST quality in Megalomania on the platform, but I could again easily point you in the direction of Tim Follin sagging off the SNES soundchip, which many in the industry considered ahead of it's time. 

 

These were the very people working on cross platform music, I respect their options on the hardware they were using. 

 

The AY was a cheap, mass produced chip, hence being used in so many systems, but whilst i am sorry you feel so strongly about my terminology, hearing hissy samples, tinny music, harsh chip tune effects on ST titles due to the decision to use the AY chip, when Amiga owners had a far more atmospheric experience in likes of Popolous, Starglider II, many others and even the 128K ZX Spectrum version of Starglider had extra speech over the ST version, does leave me saying it was an awful chip to feature in a flagship 16-bit micro at the time. 

 

 

But Atari had to rush the ST to market, the AMY chip wasn't an option. 

 

 

The rest as they say is history. 

 

 

Developers didn't make use of ANY STE features to any real extend, sure you might get better scrolling, better colour gradients, improved sound, all of these if really lucky, but titles were few and far between, as the hardware was released far too late in the day, the STFM had the far wider user base and devs were fully committed to the Amiga, PC and Console markets, the ST as a games machine, was dying a very rapid death. 

Edited March 20, 2022 by Lostdragon

[Lostdragon]

3 minutes ago, Zogging Hell said:

True, on the Midnight Resistance front the ST version doesn't even have the two player -  it is a pretty shoddy port on the ST. That one was a major disappointment for me.

 

Populous 2 on the other hand, the Amiga AI (if you can call it that) is slower - try pitching the ST against the Amiga with CPU controlled players and see who wins. So not entirely black and white, but I never tried that with the first one admittedly or even if that is an option.

 

Starglider 2, not sure a whalesong track makes up for the slightly slower framerate in game

 

Speedball 2, I will also give you, the Amiga version probably is the best thanks to the sound, although the Megadrive version is a close second IMO - although to be fair the ST, Amiga and Megadrive are so close on this one, there is virtually nothing in it.

I believe the Sega Master System version of Populous is pretty fast, faster than the MD version and has 5000 worlds, compared to the ST/Amiga version? so it's one you pick a format and accept the systems Pro's and Cons with. 

 

I played it first on the Amiga and did notice the lack of atmosphere on the ST version by comparison. 

 

 

Only played Cannon Fodder on Amiga and Jaguar, seen both the ST and MD versions running, they lose a lot of the atmosphere from the Amiga version it seems. 

 

There were claims Jez wanted to put the sampled whalesong in ST Starglider II, but it would of slowed the framerate by something like 20%,but I take all Jez San claims with a huge dose of salt these days and go on what other Argonaut staff say. 

 

Isn't MD Speedball 2 faster than the Amiga version? 

 

 

I've only really spent time on Amiga and ST versions.

 

 

I know MD Gods is faster, uses 64 colours, looses the Richard Joseph Into The Wonderful title screen music ?due to lack of cartridge space. 

[Zogging Hell]

2 hours ago, Lostdragon said:

I believe the Sega Master System version of Populous is pretty fast, faster than the MD version and has 5000 worlds, compared to the ST/Amiga version? so it's one you pick a format and accept the systems Pro's and Cons with.

 

Only played Cannon Fodder on Amiga and Jaguar, seen both the ST and MD versions running, they lose a lot of the atmosphere from the Amiga version it seems. 

 

There were claims Jez wanted to put the sampled whalesong in ST Starglider II, but it would of slowed the framerate by something like 20%,but I take all Jez San claims with a huge dose of salt these days and go on what other Argonaut staff say. 

 

I know MD Gods is faster, uses 64 colours, looses the Richard Joseph Into The Wonderful title screen music ?due to lack of cartridge space. 

Cannon Fodder's flip scrolling on the horizontal plane on the ST is a gameplay ruiner, not played it on the MD, but imagine joypad controls would not be great, which is also the problem with the Jag version.

I imagine having a sample running in game in Starglider would have killed the framerate on the original ST, so perhaps I can understand that, should have been a sinch on the STe though, shame it came out the year before, it would have been a good launch title.

MD Speedball might be marginally faster on the FPS front I've not played them side by side, but the sound is a tad muffled in comparison to the Miggy version.

[Lostdragon]

5 hours ago, ParanoidLittleMan said:

 

And to demolish some computer just because sound chip is so lame. If AY sound was so awful, how it is that after STE release programmers still made most of games with only AY sound ? People is different. Sound hearing is pretty much personal. Majority was fine with ST sound. All this reminds me on those talking against digital audio when audio CDs appeared on market - how vinyl has much better sound, 'we don't need digital noise' , etc ..

Just to clarify, i am not demolishing the ST based on the AY soundchip. 

 

I'd happily describe the PSG chip found in the Sega Master System as awful as well. 

 

 

I'm in awe of what the Starglider team got out of it, after Jez San opened his ST up, started , measuring voltages off the sound chip, and modulating the volume controls in real-time on the three channels to find what voltages came out, so he could play samples. 

 

Tim Follin coaxed a lot out of it on both Spectrum and ST. 

 

 

I like the Robocop II music, even if it is a little jaunty for the style of game. 

 

 

I'm just not a fan of AY sound fx, found things like engine noises in racing games, really suffered on the ST. 

 

Some developers had music playing too fast on the ST, Pac - Mania for example. 

 

Anyone new to the ST as the OP is, needs to be aware of the machines limitations when it comes to sound and why. 

[Lostdragon]

2 hours ago, Zogging Hell said:

Cannon Fodder's flip scrolling on the horizontal plane on the ST is a gameplay ruiner, not played it on the MD, but imagine joypad controls would not be great, which is also the problem with the Jag version.

I imagine having a sample running in game in Starglider would have killed the framerate on the original ST, so perhaps I can understand that, should have been a sinch on the STe though, shame it came out the year before, it would have been a good launch title.

MD Speedball might be marginally faster on the FPS front I've not played them side by side, but the sound is a tad muffled in comparison to the Miggy version.

Joypad controls weren't great on the Jaguar either, it's a game you really need a mouse for. 

 

Jez wanted Amiga Starglider done in solid 3D,but Rainbird wanted a quick conversion, so Amiga owners lost out there somewhat. 

 

 

Always disappointed with Core Design's ST versions of Chuck Rock and Wolfcjild, compared to Amiga and MD versions. 

 

 

Pac-Mania really suffered on ST with that cramped playing area due to status panel, Amiga version being fullscreen plays far better. 

 

 

I know some folk find ST Blood Money more playable than the faster Amiga version.