Neo Geo to Jaguar ports in 3,2,1 GO!

[+Stephen]

On 4/29/2022 at 9:52 AM, sd32 said:

I don’t understand we’re this whole “PS1 was a weak 2d machine” came from

 

The system can throw around an obscene amount of sprites: 4000 8x8. The only thing holding it back compared to contemporary arcades is VRAM

 

In terms sprite pushing, it beats even the Saturn, Capcom contemporary arcade hardware and maybe even Neo Geo

 

But like Neo Geo and Jaguar, it has to build background layers out of sprites… that’s were the Saturn catches up to it and beats it… due to the monster VDP2 background layers capabilities 

 

But PS1 being weak and the Jaguar  “teabagging” it at 2d? I have seen proof of that not being the case: Capcom vs SNK, Vampire Savior, In the Hunt, SF Alpha 3, Guilty Gear, Project X2, Harmful Park, Star Ocean 2, Gundam Battle Master, Legend of Mana, Symphony if the Night, Rayman, Mega Man X4, Twin Bee Yahoo, Parodius Daa, Abe’s Exodus, Real Bout Special, Don Pachi, Strikers 1942, etc

 

Tons of impressive 2d games… just lacked a bit more RAM for those arcade conversions, like every other home console

 

On 4/28/2022 at 11:11 PM, JagChris said:

PSX had 2mb ram and 1mb vram.

 

The Jag would kill it in 2D. Teabag.

@JagChris - pretty much everything you post is incorrect and unsubstantiated.  To see how "weak" the PSX is, check out this code from almost 9 years ago.  It shows the PSX doing

3000 sprites of 16x16 at 60 FPS in 640x480.  NO WAY in hell can the Jag do anything close.

 

Compare to the current best the Jag has been SHOWN to do (not bullshit speculation tossed about by non-coders).  ok so, let's talk tech, SCPCD demonstrated with a highly gpu optimised code + the OP pushed to the limit, that the Jaguar can display 1900 4x4 sprites at 60fps in 320x240

For the math disabled, let's spell this out.

PSX - 3000 sprites, 16*16 in 640*480 @ 60fps means 46,080,000 pixels per second raw data moving.  Not taking into account structures to manage the sprite positions, etc.

Jag - 1900 sprites, 4*4 in 320*240 @ 60fps means 1,824,000 pixels per second. So right there, the PSX is 25 TIMES faster at slinging 2D pixels.

 

How much more proof do you want?

[Cyprian]

PSX result is impressive.

21 minutes ago, Stephen said:

PSX - 3000 sprites, 16*16 in 640*480 @ 60fps means 46,080,000 pixels per second raw data moving.  Not taking into account structures to manage the sprite positions, etc.

 

Does PSX support 480 progressive mode or it is 640x480 interlaced (640x240)?

Edited May 3, 2022 by Cyprian

[+CyranoJ]

33 minutes ago, Stephen said:

How much more proof do you want?

None of JagChris' beliefs are based on proof or FaCTs.

 

I mean you can code yourself into knots getting the jaguar to prooduce 'not as good as the PSX quality' to prove a point.  But remember, you would have just maxxed out the system rendering triangles/drawing sprites while  the PSX is still running game logic, physics, collisions, audio, cd music, etc, etc as well as drawing the screen - all from code likely written in C++ and not assembler.....

 

 

[JagChris]

You guys do realize that's a still shot right? 

 

You guys have been trying to pass that off as legit for years now.  

 

It's my belief the Jag will beat the PSX in 2D. 

[+CyranoJ]

4 minutes ago, JagChris said:

You guys do realize that's a still shot right? 

 

You guys have been trying to pass that off as legit for years now.  

 

It's my belief the Jag will beat the PSX in 2D. 

You do realise photos and screen shots don't move, right?

 

(also, still or moving, doesn't matter - the Jaguar still has to rebuild the object list... but you would know that, with all your expert knowledge!)

[DEATH]

2 hours ago, Cyprian said:

This is a good question to @42bs but I heard that the GPU needs 5 or more cycles per an access to the main ram.

 

I'm not able to find figures now, but someone measured that also. And the blitter needs 5 or more cycles when copy data from the man ram to the GPU ram.

 

 

---EDIT---

 

https://www.jagware.org/index.php?/topic/464-blitter-timing/

 

The GPU->DRAM transfert in phrase mode :
Result : 11 cycles per phrase -> 4096*11/8 = 5632 cycles for 4K

 

The DRAM->GPU transfert in phrase mode :
Result : 7 cycles per phrase -> 4096*7/8 = 3584 cycles for 4K

 

The DRAM->GPU speed transfert in phrase mode :
Result : 5 cycles per phrase -> 4096*5/8 = 2560 cycles for 4K

 

 

Yes, in this case yes because the access to the local RAM of the GPU is in 16 or 32bit (depending on the address used to access it). It therefore takes 4 (16 bit) or 2 (32bit) transfers from or to the local RAM of the GPU to copy 1 phrase (64bit) from or to DRAM with the Blitter. In this case it is in fact the DRAM which "waits" for the transfers on the GPU side to be finished. This is why the CAS signal remains active (low) 2 cycles and inactive (high) 3 cycles. It would therefore be interesting to do the test with the 64bit instructions of the GPU.
Anyway, GPU local RAM was never intended to be used as a cache for the Blitter (otherwise GPU local RAM bus would be 64bit)

[Sapicco]

Can someone port baseball stars?

[+Stephen]

1 hour ago, JagChris said:

You guys do realize that's a still shot right? 

 

You guys have been trying to pass that off as legit for years now.  

 

It's my belief the Jag will beat the PSX in 2D. 

Keep on sniffing those fumes and proving what can be done by using your awesome conjecture skills since you don't code.  That's the best way to win arguments with people that code full time for a living.  Keep on keeping on, with "what you've heard, what you've been told".

[philipj]

Rayman for the Jaguar had some nice crisp colorful graphics thanks to the use of the "Blitter" compared to the PSX version...

 

 

 

[+CyranoJ]

Just now, philipj said:

Rayman for the Jaguar had some nice crisp colorful graphics thanks to the use of the "Blitter" compared to the PSX version...

No, Rayman had nice crisp graphics thanks to the artist. The blitter just moves numbers around.

[JagChris]

1 hour ago, Stephen said:

Keep on sniffing those fumes and proving what can be done by using your awesome conjecture skills since you don't code.  That's the best way to win arguments with people that code full time for a living.  Keep on keeping on, with "what you've heard, what you've been told".

You can do it even when the ones you're following are proven wrong time and again for everyone to see? But when I do it it's all wrong. Ok.

AtariOwl says he could not have done this without using GPU in main.

 

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=bf0GdXhFl78

Here are the guys you listen to. They say he's all wrong.

 

Quote

It's one of the Jaguar's biggest red herrings. Even if it worked correctly, the performance hit is massive.

 

For code that's executed more than once, copying it to the GPU/DSP local RAM and running it from there makes much more sense.


And for code that isn't, you may as well run it on the 68000.

 

 

Even if it worked correctly, hmm must be why we see AOs demo crashing constantly.

So AO could have gotten an even bigger performance boost of he hadnt been so foolish. Without any proof they make this claim. Well hell I guess the Jag is a supercomputer.

 

So Stephen you let me know when they outperform AO's stuff. Hell just let me know when they show everyone how it's done and post a 68k fire demo that outperforms GPU in main.  And while you're at it you can show me where the Native demo is literally ripping the screen apart. Then come at me with what you've heard, what you've been told.

 

In the meantime I have no faith in their screenshots, demos etc. Cycle count numbers on forums. Cyprian should probably double check those...

Edited May 4, 2022 by JagChris

[+CyranoJ]

OK, i'm gonna break this down so even someone as dumb as you can understand it, OK, JagChris?

 

Quote

AtariOwl says he could not have done this without using GPU in main.

 

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=bf0GdXhFl78

NOBODY has corrected AtariOwn about his performance - what would be the point, he proved it?

He himself wrote an article about how "GPU in Main" isn't "all that" and is for "specific cases only".

 

Quote

Even if it worked correctly, hmm must be why we see AOs demo crashing constantly.

So AO could have gotten an even bigger performance boost of he hadnt been so foolish. Without any proof they make this claim. Well hell I guess the Jag is a supercomputer.

Obviously "even if" is being taken out of context here, because AO *is* working correctly. Which is why *IT DOESN'T CRASH*  (That we know of) - You will also note it isn't actually running at 30 or 60fps. It is doing well, but its not 'fast, smooth 3D' like you keep preaching. 

 

Nobody has claimed he could have got bigger performance, or called him "Foolish"

 

Also, you are making this claim "without any proof" yourself... 

 

Quote

In the meantime I have no faith in their screenshots, demos etc. Cycle count numbers on forums. Cyprian should probably double check those...

We're not GODS. We don't need your "faith" - but it sure as fuck would be nice to live without your ignorance and bias.

 

You. Have. Not. Coded. A. Single. Fucking. Thing. In. Your. Entire. Existence. Please. Stop. Acting. Like. You. Know. What. The. Fuck. You. Are. Talking. About.

 

You twist and turn everything with negativity. JS2 died decades ago, right?  Could you channel it into something positive, maybe, just once? Or just leave, and come back with a 60fps awesome game that you have written to prove us all wrong. We're over your constant snide, backhanded, unhelpful remarks, dragging every thread into the mud.

 

[sd32]

2 hours ago, philipj said:

Rayman for the Jaguar had some nice crisp colorful graphics thanks to the use of the "Blitter" compared to the PSX version...

 

 

 

And more slowdown and less parallax too… compared to the PS1 Rayman

 

[+Gemintronic]

I'm looking over the command reference for JagStudio and I see things handy for Neo Geo style homages.

https://reboot-games.com/jagstudio/ReferenceManual.html

 

If people really want their Neo Geo on the Jag then the hard work is done.  Your favorite game is a living game design document.  BASIC is enough.  If you're more comfortable with C you're covered too.

 

Get to it dreamers.  All your Baseball Stars are belong to you!

[+CyranoJ]

5 minutes ago, sd32 said:

And more slowdown and less parallax too… compared to the PS1 Rayman

Careful with your screenshots and demos..... 

Just now, Gemintronic said:

I'm looking over the command reference for JagStudio and I see things handy for Neo Geo style homages.

https://reboot-games.com/jagstudio/ReferenceManual.html

 

If people really want their Neo Geo on the Jag then the hard work is done.  Your favorite game is a living game design document.  BASIC is enough.  If you're more comfortable with C you're covered too.

 

Get to it dreamers.  All your Baseball Stars are belong to you!

What? And admit to using that sloppy Reboot library? No red-blooded JS2 hatemonger would ever do such a thing.

[DEATH]

I don't understand why some people think that the Playstation is inferior to the Jaguar in certain areas such as 2D, or almost equivalent in 3D....
The playstation is newer than the Jaguar, its design was not as messy as the Jaguar, it has a better and faster CPU, it has a true 3D GPU, a more powerful 2D GPU, a decompression engine, a geometry transformation engine, better sound processor, higher memory bandwidth, and much more dedicated memory (2MB RAM, 1MB VRAM, 512KB sound memory, CD ROM memory...). Its only weak point compared to the Jaguar would be its lack of a cartridge port... wow, that's not much.
The Jaguar was not so bad for its time, but these countless bugs and its lack of hardware optimization mean that its relative power is considerably limited.

[+CyranoJ]

10 minutes ago, DEATH said:

I don't understand why some people think that the Playstation is inferior to the Jaguar in certain areas such as 2D, or almost equivalent in 3D....

Because they believed the bollocks handed down to them by people who spoke bollocks, and resent the people who tell them the truth.

[+Gemintronic]

One serious advantage is we can create bootable JagCD games.  PSX and Playstation 2 homebrew require a modded system.  On the PSX side the explanations I've seen are hard to reproduce "wobble" and zeroed out checksum areas.  There is an exploit for Playstation 2 that involves some oopsie in the DVD player.. but, the one PS2 homebrew developer I know refuses to use it.  Dunno why.

[agradeneu]

13 hours ago, Stephen said:

 

For the math disabled, let's spell this out.

PSX - 3000 sprites, 16*16 in 640*480 @ 60fps means 46,080,000 pixels per second raw data moving.  Not taking into account structures to manage the sprite positions, etc.

Jag - 1900 sprites, 4*4 in 320*240 @ 60fps means 1,824,000 pixels per second. So right there, the PSX is 25 TIMES faster at slinging 2D pixels.

 

How much more proof do you want?

You sure that was the limit for the Jaguar?

 

I mean, Iam not saying the Jaguar was better than the PS1, far fetched. But 25x faster sounds a bit outlandish too.

The isssue of all these arguments is the overblown hyperbole on both sides of the coin and ad hominem attacks as the weapon of choice. 

 

I myself was attacked for merely pointing out that NEOGEO quality might be possible on the Jag. Now the thread shifted the battleground to PS1. 

Pointless.

Edited May 4, 2022 by agradeneu

[DEATH]

18 minutes ago, agradeneu said:

You sure that was the limit for the Jaguar?

 

I mean, Iam not saying the Jaguar was better than the PS1, far fetched. But 25x faster sounds a bit outlandish too.

The isssue of all these arguments is the overblown hyperbole on both sides of the coin and ad hominem attacks as the weapon of choice. 

 

I myself was attacked for merely pointing out that NEOGEO quality might be possible on the Jag. Now the thread shifted the battleground to PS1. 

Pointless.

In fact the Jaguar is a lot of theory, but as I pointed out bugs and lack of hardware optimization limit the power you can have
Take a look at SCPD website : "In the spirale part, the GPU compute about 2688 sprites coordinate but all these sprites are not visible (about 1900 are always visible and up to 2090 visible)"

The way the OP works in this case requires reading 2 lists of objects per line, which divides the number of objects by 2.

 

http://scpcd.free.fr/
 

[Cyprian]

14 hours ago, Stephen said:

 

@JagChris - pretty much everything you post is incorrect and unsubstantiated.  To see how "weak" the PSX is, check out this code from almost 9 years ago.  It shows the PSX doing

3000 sprites of 16x16 at 60 FPS in 640x480.  NO WAY in hell can the Jag do anything close.

 

Compare to the current best the Jag has been SHOWN to do (not bullshit speculation tossed about by non-coders).  ok so, let's talk tech, SCPCD demonstrated with a highly gpu optimised code + the OP pushed to the limit, that the Jaguar can display 1900 4x4 sprites at 60fps in 320x240

For the math disabled, let's spell this out.

PSX - 3000 sprites, 16*16 in 640*480 @ 60fps means 46,080,000 pixels per second raw data moving.  Not taking into account structures to manage the sprite positions, etc.

Jag - 1900 sprites, 4*4 in 320*240 @ 60fps means 1,824,000 pixels per second. So right there, the PSX is 25 TIMES faster at slinging 2D pixels.

 

How much more proof do you want?

 

1 hour ago, agradeneu said:

You sure that was the limit for the Jaguar?

 

I mean, Iam not saying the Jaguar was better than the PS1, far fetched. But 25x faster sounds a bit outlandish too.

The isssue of all these arguments is the overblown hyperbole on both sides of the coin and ad hominem attacks as the weapon of choice. 

 

I myself was attacked for merely pointing out that NEOGEO quality might be possible on the Jag. Now the thread shifted the battleground to PS1. 

Pointless.

 

good point,

 

below my objections:

1) Resolution, IMO PSX doesn't support 640*480 @ 60fps . I guess it was 640*480 interlaced. It is just 640*240 @ 60fps
2) what was resolution and sprite color depth in case of PSX

3) We know Jaguar's Object Processor limit, worth to check the blitter limit in case of 16x16pixel sprites

 

anyway this is comparison PSX 32Mhz memory bus vs Jaguar's 13MHz bus

Edited May 4, 2022 by Cyprian

[Editorb]

9 hours ago, CyranoJ said:

We're not GODS.

Well that’s just great. Now I need a new worldview.

[DEATH]

by the way, I've never seen a video of this famous demo on Playstation, nor even the characteristics. A link somewhere?

[alucardX]

9 hours ago, sd32 said:

And more slowdown and less parallax too… compared to the PS1 Rayman

 

There may have been room for optimizations on the Jag. Since the PSX version was made later, that did give devs a chance to make improvements and changes to the game between releases. Is there less parallax scrolling in the Jag version due to technical limitations or design choices made later?

[Punisher5.0]

53 minutes ago, alucardX said:

There may have been room for optimizations on the Jag. Since the PSX version was made later, that did give devs a chance to make improvements and changes to the game between releases. Is there less parallax scrolling in the Jag version due to technical limitations or design choices made later?

They came out days apart