Neo Geo to Jaguar ports in 3,2,1 GO!

[agradeneu]

To me it looks like they shifted resources to the PS version and there are some limits with 4 MB ROM space.  We are lucky it was released at all.

They added gameplay mechanics that could have been in the Jag version easily. The added translucency effects might have been possible with CRY.

They added parallax by cutting the backdrop in 2 bitmaps and added addtional graphics for the map layer. 

With the Jaguar version, that seemed to be limited by ROM space.

Technically, I dont think Rayman maxed out Jaguars 2D capabilities, although it pushed the system quite well.

 

The quality of the lush artwork and the huge, fluidly animated charcacters really make the game standout.

 

 

 

Edited May 4, 2022 by agradeneu

[alucardX]

47 minutes ago, Punisher5.0 said:

They came out days apart

Haha, okay. Forget I said anything.

[42bs]

19 hours ago, DEATH said:

The GPU has 64bit access to the data BUS

If they would have made a real 64 bit read, for example a "loadp r0,(rx)" would load to r0 and r1  then it would have been of real use.. But a) the need to load it from HIDATA plus b) that _any_ load/store destroys HIDATA makes it nearly unusable.

So only real use case is a quick copy routine either in an interrupt (OBL update) or if no interrupts are active at all.

 

[Cyprian]

34 minutes ago, 42bs said:

If they would have made a real 64 bit read, for example a "loadp r0,(rx)" would load to r0 and r1  then it would have been of real use.. But a) the need to load it from HIDATA plus b) that _any_ load/store destroys HIDATA makes it nearly unusable.

So only real use case is a quick copy routine either in an interrupt (OBL update) or if no interrupts are active at all.

 

true, that HIDATA register was really short-sighted move, would be better to use register pair, e.g. R0/R1

[JagChris]

21 hours ago, Stephen said:

 

@JagChris - pretty much 

Compare to the current best the Jag has been SHOWN to do (not bullshit speculation tossed about by non-coders).  ok so, let's talk tech, SCPCD demonstrated with a highly gpu optimised code + the OP pushed to the limit, that the Jaguar can display 1900 4x4 sprites at 60fps in 320x240

For the math disabled, let's spell this out.

PSX - 3000 sprites, 16*16 in 640*480 @ 60fps means 46,080,000 pixels per second raw data moving.  Not taking into account structures to manage the sprite positions, etc.

Jag - 1900 sprites, 4*4 in 320*240 @ 60fps means 1,824,000 pixels per second. So right there, the PSX is 25 TIMES faster at slinging 2D pixels.

 

How much more proof do you want?

Wasn't SPCD the one who some time ago who released logic meter readings 'proving' that GPU in main was much slower than using the 68k? Yes yes I'm pretty sure he was. 

 

I'm still waiting for them to release the 68k code that will blow the doors off this whole fiasco.

[joeatari1]

[Jag64]

58 minutes ago, joeatari1 said:

Proof the Jaguar blows the doors off the PS1.

[+CyranoJ]

2 hours ago, JagChris said:

Wasn't SPCD the one who some time ago who released logic meter readings 'proving' that GPU in main was much slower than using the 68k? Yes yes I'm pretty sure he was. 

 

I'm still waiting for them to release the 68k code that will blow the doors off this whole fiasco.

Don't you have a bed full of shit to clean? 

 

Better hurry, your electroshock treatment is due soon as well.

[sd32]

7 hours ago, alucardX said:

There may have been room for optimizations on the Jag. Since the PSX version was made later, that did give devs a chance to make improvements and changes to the game between releases. Is there less parallax scrolling in the Jag version due to technical limitations or design choices made later?

I am no coder, I am just pointing out some of the differences… but I bet they could have added the extra parallax 

 

We also have Raiden in both systems… the Playstation is much closer to the arcade… the Jag version is only running at 30 fps in comparison, although they added some “enhanced” pixel art

 

We also have Primal Rage… the PS1 version has way bigger sprites, more animation and better color overall… that one I am sure was very crippled by the Jag CD lack of extra RAM

[+Stephen]

3 hours ago, JagChris said:

I'm still waiting for them to release the 68k code that will blow the doors off this whole fiasco.

Bunch of us are waiting for you to release anything.  Even a few lines of BASIC code.  But we know you won't and can't so just keep spouting bullshit, it's all you're capable of.

[alucardX]

43 minutes ago, sd32 said:

I am no coder, I am just pointing out some of the differences… but I bet they could have added the extra parallax 

 

We also have Raiden in both systems… the Playstation is much closer to the arcade… the Jag version is only running at 30 fps in comparison, although they added some “enhanced” pixel art

 

We also have Primal Rage… the PS1 version has way bigger sprites, more animation and better color overall… that one I am sure was very crippled by the Jag CD lack of extra RAM

It is quite possible that a lot of this comes back to poor dev kits and too much reliance of 68K versus utilizing other chips. I DO NOT know this to be fact, but I am only speculating.

[JagChris]

2 hours ago, Stephen said:

Bunch of us are waiting for you to release anything.  Even a few lines of BASIC code.  But we know you won't and can't so just keep spouting bullshit, it's all you're capable of.

You must have missed my magnus opus. 

[+CyranoJ]

24 minutes ago, JagChris said:

You must have missed my magnus opus. 

Goatse, is that you?

[+CyranoJ]

 

Jagchris, go cry in a corner now.

[+Stephen]

31 minutes ago, CyranoJ said:

 

Jagchris, go cry in a corner now.

You realize he's been screaming this is fake since 2014?  Poor fella, just can't win against facts.

[JagChris]

It's good to see the demo finally. 

 

No need to cry in a corner I still have no problem believing the Jag will spank the PSX in 2D. In 2.5D too. You get some great programmers on Doom for both systems and the PSX will start pissing itself trying to run with the Jag. 

 

Death said the PSX has a more powerful 2D engine. I don't buy it. How do you figure power? Programmers have told us the blitter/OP are dependant on the memory and bus for performance. What Carmack once referred to as chips with no theoretical upper limit.

 

You can see for yourselves a hint of this now. Even with the crippled dev system Jag is smoother in several ways than the PSX. Play JagDoom for  half an hour then switch over to the PSX. The projectiles, animations, elevators it's all chunk city. Rough like an snes.

 

Now we need to see those gpu in main tests you guys been running proving the 68ks superiority. 

 

 

[+Gemintronic]

@JagChris

 

Not challenging anything anybody has said.  Just asking for my own edification:  How would you demonstrate your viewpoint in code?

 

Would it be something like use Raptor and C for the Jag side and Psy-Q or PSXSDK and C on the Playstation side and run the same performance demo?

[+CyranoJ]

16 minutes ago, JagChris said:

It's good to see the demo finally. 

 

No need to cry in a corner I still have no problem believing the Jag will spank the PSX in 2D. In 2.5D too. You get some great programmers on Doom for both systems and the PSX will start pissing itself trying to run with the Jag. 

 

Death said the PSX has a more powerful 2D engine. I don't buy it. How do you figure power? Programmers have told us the blitter/OP are dependant on the memory and bus for performance. What Carmack once referred to as chips with no theoretical upper limit.

 

You can see for yourselves a hint of this now. Even with the crippled dev system Jag is smoother in several ways than the PSX. Play JagDoom for  half an hour then switch over to the PSX. The projectiles, animations, elevators it's all chunk city. Rough like an snes.

 

Now we need to see those gpu in main tests you guys been running proving the 68ks superiority. 

 

 

I think you can just fuck offski now Chris.  Go create JS2 and wall yourself in.

 

Always round and round in circular arguments with utter wastes of time like yourself.

[JagChris]

26 minutes ago, Gemintronic said:

@JagChris

 

Not challenging anything anybody has said.  Just asking for my own edification:  How would you demonstrate your viewpoint in code?

 

Would it be something like use Raptor and C for the Jag side and Psy-Q or PSXDEV and C on the Playstation side and run the same performance demo?

 

I wouldn't touch raptor for any kind of performance even if I was a fantastic coder. And I'm not. I'm crap at coding. I have been tester for great coders for nearly 20 years though. I've heard their thoughts many of which have been posted around here on this subject in the past. 

 

Heres something everyone can see for themselves. Run JagDoom for a bit then switch to PSX Doom.  The smoothness will crash noticably. A lot.

Edited May 5, 2022 by JagChris
Clarity

[+CyranoJ]

9 minutes ago, JagChris said:

I wouldn't touch raptor for any kind of performance even if I was a fantastic coder. And I'm not. I'm crap at coding. I have been tester for great coders for nearly 20 years though. I've heard their thoughts many of which have been posted around here on this subject in the past. 

If you were a "fantastic coder" you wouldn't be making these absurd claims. And you also wouldn't need RAPTOR.   You have absolutely no clue about its performance because you have no clue about how to use it, or the jaguar in general.

 

Like I said, go wallow in an expired domain.

 

You really don't bring anything to this scene except horsecrap and toxicity and bias.

[+Gemintronic]

I am a horrible coder and a former software tester.  For me having the heavy lifting done by RAPTOR is a no brainer - even if someone told me it wasn't the most performant option.  Heck, even if it was long abandoned I'd use it.  Years of real world use and debugging is worth its weight in gold.

 

In the end this topic is about bringing fun from one platform to another.  If there's a more convenient toolchain for making even amateur developers successful I'd like to hear it.

[+CyranoJ]

28 minutes ago, Gemintronic said:

For me having the heavy lifting done by RAPTOR is a no brainer - even if someone told me it wasn't the most performant option.  Heck, even if it was long abandoned I'd use it.  Years of real world use and debugging is worth its weight in gold.

Thank you - it absolutely isn't the most performant, because its not designed for a specific task, but general use. 

However, it is no slouch either and makes efficient use of the GPU keeping all the common-access functions in GPU internal memory.

I think in the last 2-3 years only a couple of issues have been found in the core itself. It's nice to be able to exclude all that low level stuff when debugging and consider it 'reliable'.

 

The focus is now on functionality - with stability issues being addressed if and when they are found.  It's best to be open about all this to build developer trust, and not hide problems away or pretend they dont exist.

[JagChris]

20 minutes ago, Gemintronic said:

I am a horrible coder and a former software tester.  For me having the heavy lifting done by RAPTOR is a no brainer - even if someone told me it wasn't the most performant option.  Heck, even if it was long abandoned I'd use it.  Years of real world use and debugging is worth its weight in gold.

 

In the end this topic is about bringing fun from one platform to another.  If there's a more convenient toolchain for making even amateur developers successful I'd like to hear it.

I agree there. I think they did a good job giving people better entry level tools to tinker with. 

 

The point of this, and it may be proven wrong, is other very good coders have come forward and said the Jag can at least match what the PSX can do in 2D. They have produced compelling arguments for this in the past. I wanted people to know the other side of the story.

 

They are too many questions about the tests that supposedly disprove this to take them seriously for me. Lack of openness and transparency. New tests refuting some of these other claims this group has made.

 

But everyone knows where I stand so I'm not mentioning anything more about it.

[leech]

8 hours ago, CyranoJ said:

Don't you have a bed full of shit to clean? 

 

Better hurry, your electroshock treatment is due soon as well.

 

4 hours ago, CyranoJ said:

Goatse, is that you?

I regret to inform the Atari community that CyranoJ is no longer going to be doing Atari Jaguar ports, as his comedy career is now doing so well!

 

This is cracking me up!

[Lostdragon]

9 hours ago, sd32 said:

I am no coder, I am just pointing out some of the differences… but I bet they could have added the extra parallax 

 

We also have Raiden in both systems… the Playstation is much closer to the arcade… the Jag version is only running at 30 fps in comparison, although they added some “enhanced” pixel art

 

We also have Primal Rage… the PS1 version has way bigger sprites, more animation and better color overall… that one I am sure was very crippled by the Jag CD lack of extra RAM

Doesn't the Saturn version have the most layers of parallax? ? 

 

Honestly been so long since i looked at the various console versions of Rayman, can't remember, I know they all have their fair share of strengths and weaknesses. 

 

 

With Raiden it's a bit more bit difficult, your talking the Jaguar version being given to Imagitec Design and possibly based on the canned Falcon version to start with and the PlayStation version in the hands of Seibu Kaihatsu Inc with 

Tetsuya Kawaguchi handling the coding. 

 

 

I would suspect the PlayStation version had the bigger development budget and more capable development team. 

 

 

Jag CD Primal Rage, another game given to a UK development house best known for handling big name conversions for multiple platforms at once, Probe Software, up there with Imagitec Design and Tiertex for mixed results.. 

 

It's always appeared to me to be a contractual obligation title, nothing more, they did for Atari. 

 

Pure contract work. 

 

Atari at that stage simply needing software for the ill fated Jag CD add-on. 

 

Not saying it could of matched the PlayStation version, more Probe were very unlikely to spend time optimising the Jaguar code, it had to be out whilst there were still the embers of a commercial market for Jaguar titles.