It’s a miracle the nes sold like hot cakes

[John Stamos Mullet]

20 hours ago, Rhomaios said:

The Nintendo came out almost a whole year before the Master System did (in the US, that is). Moreover, the NES beat Sega by two years in Japan, giving it a huge game library lead.

 

Graphically and sound-wise (when the developers wanted to take advantage of the FM chip), the Master System is superior, but it pales in the games department.

 

Things would have been very different if there were more cross-platform ports.

And there would have been more cross platform popular games if Nintendo hadn’t strong-armed 3rd party dev houses into exclusivity deals, to the point where they were sued over it and lost. 
 

but yeah - having a year or two jump start on the competition is also a huge advantage. They took a gamble on jumping back into a video game market that had crashed, and won - in the short term. But they lost in the longer term because they didn’t grow up their products with their core audience. Which is why Sony and Microsoft were able to squeeze them out of the adult gaming market. 

[+GoldLeader]

7 minutes ago, John Stamos Mullet said:

And there would have been more cross platform popular games if Nintendo hadn’t strong-armed 3rd party dev houses into exclusivity deals, to the point where they were sued over it and lost. 
 

 

Exactly right!  They also strong-armed the stores by telling them Not to carry Atari, SEGA, etc.  if they wanted the latest and greatest NES games...(Also illegal of course)...

[Rhomaios]

22 minutes ago, John Stamos Mullet said:

And there would have been more cross platform popular games if Nintendo hadn’t strong-armed 3rd party dev houses into exclusivity deals, to the point where they were sued over it and lost. 
 

but yeah - having a year or two jump start on the competition is also a huge advantage. They took a gamble on jumping back into a video game market that had crashed, and won - in the short term. But they lost in the longer term because they didn’t grow up their products with their core audience. Which is why Sony and Microsoft were able to squeeze them out of the adult gaming market. 

No doubt Nintendo's antitrust breaches hurt competition (chiefly Sega and NEC, the Atari probably wouldn't have recovered, just like it didn't with the Jaguar), though Sony and MS also had much deeper pockets. The Xbox for example sold at a loss for the first few years as Microsoft tried to get a foothold. Sony used their DVD and BluRay patents to stifle competitors as well.

 

I'm not quite sure when they decided on it (if it was a response to what happened or if it was planned from the get-go), but by the Wii era, Nintendo's strategy wasn't to target Sony and Microsoft's market. It was to go after kids and families, and I know plenty of adults whose only games during those years are found on Wii Sports. I know I was partially in the crowd. I gave up on the 360 and PS3 and only stuck with the Wii, since my actual gaming interests still lay in the 80s and 90s.

Edited May 22, 2022 by Rhomaios

[John Stamos Mullet]

1 minute ago, Rhomaios said:

No doubt Nintendo's antitrust breaches hurt competition, though the latter two also had much deeper pockets. The Xbox for example sold at a loss for the first few years as Microsoft tried to get a foothold. Sony used their DVD and BluRay patents to stifle competitors as well.

 

I'm not quite sure when they decided on it (if it was a response to what happened or if it was planned from the get-go), but by the Wii era, Nintendo's strategy wasn't to target Sony and Microsoft's market. It was to go after kids and families, and I know plenty of adults whose only games during those years are found on Wii Sports. I know I was partially in the crowd. I gave up on the 360 and PS3 and only stuck with the Wii, since my actual gaming interests still lay in the 80s and 90s.

Oh, absolutely. Nintendo knew there would always be the kids market, and the adult parents of those kids whose nostalgia for the 80’s simpler, kid-oriented games would always be there. It works if your expectations aren’t to dominate the entire gaming market. But that’s also why they got a reputation for being too focused on kidsy stuff, even though devout Nintendo fans bristle at the mention of it. 

[+GoldLeader]

Another thing to keep in mind;  America is one place,  but it was different in Europe and Japan.  In Europe aside from computers being dominant,  the Master System sold quite well;  In Japan they had the Famicom in '83 (though many big games came later),  but the PC Engine was the big competitor...

 

If you experienced the NES in the U.S. there was no doubt whatsoever that it was a force to be reckoned with...

[johannesmutlu]

14 hours ago, GoldLeader said:

Exactly right!  They also strong-armed the stores by telling them Not to carry Atari, SEGA, etc.  if they wanted the latest and greatest NES games...(Also illegal of course)...

Shame on nintendo for intimidating toy stores to not allow taking competitor game systems into their stores,is it not already worse enough that nintendo contracted game developers to not make any games for their competitor’s game systems,sure nintendo might have revitalize the videogame’s industry BUT that should not mean that they are allowed to play such false monopoly strategy to sealing the fate of it’s competitors,so it’s no wonder that eventually both sega and atari sew nintendo for playing such false monopoly strategy with the reason that they lost atleast $250 million dollars in revanue,

also atari should,ve sew mattel for using their console in their tv advertisements against atari,sony and nintendo should,ve sew sega for using their products against them in their sega tv adds, i hornestly don’t understand why this was allowed back then.

yes there was a time that most game developers jumped on the sony bandwagon thus sealing pretty much the fate for both atari,3DO,nintendo,sega nec and apple,BUT that was out of free will,there was no intimidation force behind it.

 

[harmonyFM]

The 7800 would have put up a much stiffer fight if it'd shown up on time in 1983 instead of coming out when it did, oh what cold have been.

[Pete5125]

No idea, I know I was a kid during this time, everyone had a 2600, no body had colleco or intelevision, the mkt had moved to computers, comadore 64 and Atari xe, my family was poor we didn't have computers.

 

Atari was a weird dead, after crash.  They were still in stores, games were cheap, when you went to flea mkts you could get used games for a couple bucks.

 

All of the sudden Nintendo was out, everyone wanted one.   You went from boxy graphics to cartoon looking graphics.  Nintendo mkt the heck out of it, cartoons, Mario on everything, pacman now in discount bins along with Atari, also Atari is harder to find, hills, kaybee, and Lionel are only stores to have games, but now suddenly more new 2600 games, and Atari advertising the heck out of the fun is back of Atari, they now have 3 systems yet all 3 look worst than nes.

 

An 84 release 2 yrs after 5200, would not of worked, I can't imagine any consumer confidence.  86 budget release was a success. But killed Atari reputation with kids.  Should of just left 2600 going, released a 5200 Jr w/2600 adapter included for free...motherhood balled 7800, worked towards getting a 16 bit out by 1989.

[atarilux]

On 4/24/2022 at 3:15 AM, fiddlepaddle said:

It all boils down to marketing, my friend. Tech specs only very rarely make or break a product.

In the UK at least it turns out 7800 sold moderately well, you could find carts on sale for it in many retailers, however I noticed that finding sellers of the console was a bit harder when you compared it to Sega or Nintendo. It never had the hype around it and was never talked about in the school playground, it was all Sega and Nintendo. From what I read elsewhere more recently, it also was sold as the cheap alternative (which probably did not help its desirability factor). Also it just lacked the games that people wanted. My brother had a Sega, and many friends had Nintendo both got people excited. I never detected the same around the 7800, it was just there almost by accident. Atari really managed to mess up the 8-bit computers and consoles in the UK. They had tough competition, but it seemed that they just gave up.

[Keatah]

The 7800 came out..when.. 1986? Way too late. And to have 2600 compatibility as a main selling point, in 1986, was like so backwards. No wonder it flopped and essentially did nothing for Atari.

 

Shit. By the time the 7800 was out I was in the thick of 16-bit computing. Mostly on paper, but also in practice a little.

 

On 4/23/2022 at 8:15 PM, fiddlepaddle said:

It all boils down to marketing, my friend. Tech specs only very rarely make or break a product.

This, yes.. Marketing. Many examples like MS-DOS, Windows, VHS, and so many other perceived-as-2nd-rate products.. All succeeded because of availability and marketing and bandwagon effect. Marketing also includes (in a roundabout way) having content/games available too. Available and easy to purchase.

 

On 4/23/2022 at 9:53 PM, ColecoGamer said:

It’s not really a miracle. What sold the NES were its games. These games established brand-new genres that didn’t exist on the 7800, and looking at the NES’ early game library is proof of this.

Yup. Games, content, supporting material, advertising. That's important. But also some semblance of a theme(s) is needed too. Atari essentially didn't develop enough mascots or memorable characters. A few, yes, but not like Nintendo and Sega did.

 

On 4/23/2022 at 9:53 PM, ColecoGamer said:

Tech specs didn’t matter to the consumer back then either, especially where game consoles were concerned. Consoles were still considered toys back then.

I was a huge techie then. Especially when it came to computers. Always checking the resolutions, the number and sizes of chips, the amount of memory, microprocessor speeds, sound voices, graphics & simultaneous colors, disk speeds and capacities.. BUT ONLY ON COMPUTERS. For consoles I didn't care.

 

The most techie thing I looked at on a console was the size/capacity of its cartridges. Sometimes.

 

On 4/24/2022 at 10:27 AM, ColecoGamer said:

As someone who grew up during the 1980s (and being very much a hardcore gamer), I can say with conviction that nobody I knew then looked fondly at the Atari 7800. In fact, Atari wasn’t even in their vocabulary. It was mostly Nintendo and Sega (for their Master System console).

As a child of both the 70's & 80's I started with the VCS on release day October 1977. By the time the 7800 was out I was already well seasoned and knew what was good and worth paying attention to. The 7800 was not a system I lusted after. Not like Atari 400/800 or Apple II. To me it little more than an enhanced VCS. Hell Atari's marketing was so bad then I didn't know what it was!

 

There was this weird battle going on in my head. It's 1987 already and the 7800 was first getting underway? The latest tech is supposed to be the greatest? The 7800 didn't fit that ideal. It was the same shit from 1979 and 1980. Not in a good nostalgic way, but in a worn-down jalopy, dated kinda way.

 

Well.. I was becoming a big boy and interested in computers more and more. Especially having learned all the basics and ins'n'outs on an Apple II.

 

Later on I did see Nintendo and Sega as more sophisticated than anything "Atari". Atari was child games to this coming of age adult now.

[Keatah]

Atari would have fared so much better had they not regurgitated both their hardware and IP over and over again. Those XE machines were essentially 1970's tech trying to look state of the art in 1986-1988. And the 7800 relied on late 70's cartridges from the VCS too much. Marketing bullet too big there. Same shit year after year.

 

But NES was fresh direction. New IP, new hardware, new marketing force. What's not to like?

 

On 4/24/2022 at 10:27 AM, ColecoGamer said:

As someone who grew up during the 1980s (and being very much a hardcore gamer), I can say with conviction that nobody I knew then looked fondly at the Atari 7800. In fact, Atari wasn’t even in their vocabulary. It was mostly Nintendo and Sega (for their Master System console).

Well yeh. It was dated before it even came to market. And the IP was a clumsy batchmix from the VCS, 8-bit line, and arcades. It wasn't enough to get my attention.

 

On 4/24/2022 at 10:27 AM, ColecoGamer said:

I believe what put the nail in Atari’s coffin was when they advertised the Atari XE, and the commercial Atari had to promote it. The selling points they made in that ad were ridiculous - “We got REAL joysticks” and “Bug Hunt!”. Duck Hunt was a popular phenomenon at the time, and it was arcade quality. Bug Hunt looked terrible and stiff in the commercial. This proved how out of touch Atari was with modern console gaming at the time.

Yes they were. It was disappointing to see them go from innovators (Innovative Leisure!) in the late 1970's to also-rans. Living on laurels and recycling/repackaging the same content over and over again.

 

On 4/24/2022 at 10:27 AM, ColecoGamer said:

Here’s the commercial (which aired in 1987) as proof of what I said:

 

 

No child who wanted an 8-bit NES was excited about having a floppy drive or a keyboard either. My friends would laugh every time this commercial aired on television.

It was cringeworthy for sure - both the commercials and the actual product. Tacky. Childish. Insulting because selling 1979 tech.

 

Having been a big "Atari" fan back then, I would sometimes wanna crawl under the table when these commercials aired. I mean to associate myself with such "babyness" was starting to feel retarded. It was dated obsolete 8-year-old hardware, suitable for an 8-year-old human.

 

Disk drives? Keyboards? WTF? My Apple II (and 400/800) had that stuff 9 or 10 years earlier in 1977-1979! Fucking get real.

 

Showing FSII ?? That's more like a slide show. Not impressive because the Atari was supposed to have advanced graphics chips. And yet it looks the same as the Apple II, with no graphics chips. Blech!

 

On 4/24/2022 at 11:47 AM, johannesmutlu said:

Whooaah are you serious about this? Because the atari xe was a promising system and it sounded good on paper.

Pretty sure kids didn't care about specifications printed on paper.

 

On 4/25/2022 at 3:24 PM, theoakwoody said:

Everyone talks about the NES in the US but it was released in Japan in 1983 and nothing could touch it for years.  The sega master system came out in 1985 but no one in Japan cares about its amazing graphics because the famicom was already established as the dominant player.  Nintendos foresight to allow mappers to be easily implemented through cartridges kept the console relevant for a long time.

That's an important point. And it did work as intended . The VCS and 7800 had a few mappers going. But nothing like the big-N did. And they only got better with SNES!

 

On 4/25/2022 at 3:24 PM, theoakwoody said:

 My first system was the 7800 but I was 6 and had no clue that I did anything but play 2600 games.  I almost think the backwards compatibility hurt the 7800 because it confuses kids as to what games played on it.  I bought Mario bros, Pac-Man jr, skateboardin’, real sports football at toys r us and loved them in 1986 even though they were 2600 games.  Once I got the NES I put the 7800 for a while.

It probably did. And the continual repackaging of old tech in slick consoles didn't help either. I expected the XL series of computers to be much more than the original 400/800.

 

Apple saw no need to gussy up the II series throughout its lifecycle. And that helped cut down on confusion. Helped to not set too high expectations either.

 

On 4/25/2022 at 8:05 AM, GoldenWheels said:

I feel the pain. My parents got me an Atari XE instead of a NES for Xmas in I think 88 or 89. I got Bug Hunt and FSII instead of SMB. I also tried to not to be a spoiled, jerky kid about it.

 

It was hard.

I can imagine. All that old tech! Old tech is cool today. Back then it was lame.

[johannesmutlu]

And lastly to wrap it all up for wich if i,ve counted it all coorectly from all my posts about it,are my 19th reasons why i consider it a miracle why the nes became a huge success,

aa i mentioned before the nes aside from the us and europe, there were atleast 5 cartride based game consoles released in japan thus predating the nes,including the cassette vision,intelevision,channel f ,visicom 100 and the magnovox oddysey (destributed by nintendo for japan)etc,,, 

sure many of those systems were probably outdated at the time but they still did had it’s potential,

and yes i also mentioned that there were ever since 1983 the SG1000,the atari 2700 and the super cassette vision in 1984,among other systems including the pc88,commodore 64 and commodore vic1001 etc,,,

among other things

BUT theres another reason for wich i think why it is a miracle that the nes outnumbered it’s sales from other systems,even if you combine them alltogether,

so this is reason number 20 about it,

 

even nintendo did came with their own sports games such as f1,tennes and soccor,but those game were not exceptionally better or unique compared to  those sega and atari versions of their own sports games for their systems,in fact i even dare to say that nintendo f1 is i rip off from atari’s pole position,and nintendo tennis should,ve been a rip off from atari tennis, etc,,,

this picture is a prime example of what i mean, am mean looking at it you would almost believe that nintendo was not unique and innovative as the overhyping media from that time period would make you believe.

[+GoldenWheels]

On 5/27/2022 at 9:03 PM, Keatah said:

 

I can imagine. All that old tech! Old tech is cool today. Back then it was lame.

It's really kind of odd...when I found retro-gaming years later I was somewhat stunned. I meet all these guys who never gave up on their old systems, or collecting. And played multiple gens at once, at the time.

 

This was directly opposite to me. When the next gen system came out for me bitd, the last gen system practically became dogshit in my mind overnight. Why play 2600 or XE when you have a NES, why play NES when you have SNES, etc etc etc. It made me realize what a tech turd I was back then, easily impressed by graphics. Now of course I play anything from any time basically but man...back then it was new or nothing for me.

[+GoldLeader]

5 hours ago, GoldenWheels said:

It's really kind of odd...when I found retro-gaming years later I was somewhat stunned. I meet all these guys who never gave up on their old systems, or collecting. And played multiple gens at once, at the time.

 

This was directly opposite to me. When the next gen system came out for me bitd, the last gen system practically became dogshit in my mind overnight. Why play 2600 or XE when you have a NES, why play NES when you have SNES, etc etc etc. It made me realize what a tech turd I was back then, easily impressed by graphics. Now of course I play anything from any time basically but man...back then it was new or nothing for me.

 

I was only a little bit that way and mostly in the SNES era...I was so into SNES (and Genesis) that looking at NES for a while was like...OK there's more platforms and if you get lucky one sprite will be a tiny bit bigger than the others.  That's a BOSS Fight!  Whereas I thought each new SNES game was some kind of mindblower.   At least I was smart enough to keep my NES,  knowing someday I'd want to at least revisit the classics (Not gonna give up on Deadly Towers or Faxanadu,  which blew my mind compared to ColecoVision). ..Thankfully I kept almost all of my old consoles

[+5-11under]

Another miracle!

[johannesmutlu]

4 hours ago, GoldLeader said:

 

I was only a little bit that way and mostly in the SNES era...I was so into SNES (and Genesis) that looking at NES for a while was like...OK there's more platforms and if you get lucky one sprite will be a tiny bit bigger than the others.  That's a BOSS Fight!  Whereas I thought each new SNES game was some kind of mindblower.   At least I was smart enough to keep my NES,  knowing someday I'd want to at least revisit the classics (Not gonna give up on Deadly Towers or Faxanadu,  which blew my mind compared to ColecoVision). ..Thankfully I kept almost all of my old consoles

Well back then i was just like you,when i saw atari and the C64, i was like oh yeah cool,and once i saw the nes with the game supermarios i was mind blown to be able to control the character on screen and termine what will happen next on screen once you beated a level,but then i saw mario 3 and simpsons bart vs space wich blew my mind because both games did make mevrealize that the nes was waaay more capable in graphics and sound,

but then i saw the sega genesis with games like golden axe,ghoast & gablins and later on sonic etc,,,i was wondering how i could,ve liked the nes sooo much,

but then on one after hearing strange computer sounds by my ount and smwent trough my cousin’s sleeproom,i saw his rented supernintendo with supermarioworld and oh man oh man what was i blown away because everything was super from it’s graphics,sounds and sleeck design,i was sooo amezed, it felt like getting hit by an atom bomb,heck even mario 3 on the nes looked & sounded like nothing in comparision,and after seeing that snes commercial with that game on my mario 3 cartoon vhs tape,i was absolutely determined to get my snes some day,

now while it is true that once i saw the ps1 & later on the N64  with it’s 3D graphics,i was indeed mind blown away BUT once i found out that both mario and the N64 controller did felt like clumsy,i was started to turn away from nextgen systems ands hat’s when i realized that those 16bit day’s were over for good to be never the same again,and i still just wanted my a snes,and finally in 2091 by a second hand store i was finally able to buy myself a used snes with all my favorite games for it,and 21 years later i still love my snes, i didn’t and i just don’t care about ps3,ps4,ps5,xbox 360,xbox one,xbox S etc,,, as they all do felt like to be the same thing to me,

yes i do own a N64,a nintendo wii and gamecube,but nothing will ever match that nostalgic feeling from the early 90’s when things did felt like to be really cool,revolutionary and new to be unheard off,back then everything was still in development stage,but these day’s things seems to be outdeveloped them selfes with nothing special new on the horizon,the step from fm sound to digital was amezing,the step from B&W to color was amezing,the step from 8bit to 16bit was amezing,the step from 2D to 3D was amezing,the step from low amounts of pokygon counts to high amounts of polygon counts was amezing,the step from lew-res to hi-rea was amezing,BUT the step from full hd to 4K or 8K??? Not so much, in fact i see more value in those old game systems as they no longer get’s produced and they do have an amezing value of history as well,that’s why i like to collect for them ever since?

Edited May 31, 2022 by johannesmutlu

[Keatah]

9 hours ago, johannesmutlu said:

yes i do own a N64,a nintendo wii and gamecube,but nothing will ever match that nostalgic feeling from the early 90’s when things did felt like to be really cool,revolutionary and new to be unheard off,back then everything was still in development stage,but these day’s things seems to be outdeveloped them selfes with nothing special new on the horizon,the step from fm sound to digital was amezing,the step from B&W to color was amezing,the step from 8bit to 16bit was amezing,the step from 2D to 3D was amezing,the step from low amounts of pokygon counts to high amounts of polygon counts was amezing,the step from lew-res to hi-rea was amezing,BUT the step from full hd to 4K or 8K??? Not so much, in fact i see more value in those old game systems as they no longer get’s produced and they do have an amezing value of

history as well,that’s why i like to collect for them ever since?

Yes that's the magic of discovery. And I totally agree on today's games being overdeveloped. They can throw a billion dollars at a game as far as I'm concerned and I wouldn't have much interest in it. Because it's all the same shit. Over'n'over'n'over again. Same shit..

 

The step from from Apple II beeps and bloops to FM sound was amazing.

The step from Apple II to Amiga to PC was mind-blowing.

The step from single-digit MHz speeds to double-digit was a memorable moment.

The step to 3D hardware from 2D hardware was remarkable.

..and more!

 

There's tons more transitions linked to wow moments. But they're all in the past. Can the industry impress us today?

[firebottle]

22 minutes ago, Keatah said:

Yes that's the magic of discovery. And I totally agree on today's games being overdeveloped. They can throw a billion dollars at a game as far as I'm concerned and I wouldn't have much interest in it. Because it's all the same shit. Over'n'over'n'over again. Same shit..

 

The step from from Apple II beeps and bloops to FM sound was amazing.

The step from Apple II to Amiga to PC was mind-blowing.

The step from single-digit MHz speeds to double-digit was a memorable moment.

The step to 3D hardware from 2D hardware was remarkable.

..and more!

 

There's tons more transitions linked to wow moments. But they're all in the past. Can the industry impress us today?

You're not impressed by current tech that monitors everything we do 24/7/365?

[Keatah]

I'm not important enough to have to worry about that stuff. Or be impressed by it either. In fact I feel safe that someone's keep'n an eye on me.

[CDS Games]

20 hours ago, GoldenWheels said:

This was directly opposite to me. When the next gen system came out for me bitd, the last gen system practically became dogshit in my mind overnight. Why play 2600 or XE when you have a NES

 

Heh...my cousin gave us a Pong console, and interest in it cratered when I finally got a 2600.

[+5-11under]

1 hour ago, CDS Games said:

 

Heh...my cousin gave us a Pong console, and interest in it cratered when I finally got a 2600.

It's a miracle that Pong sold like hotcakes.

[Lostdragon]

The decision to initally have Mattel handle the NES here in the UK, before being dropped, has been discussed enough over the years, so my question is..

 

 

Just how well did Hot Cakes actually sell? ?

 

I mean, if they are the benchmark comparison...

 

?

[+5-11under]

55 minutes ago, Lostdragon said:

The decision to initally have Mattel handle the NES here in the UK, before being dropped, has been discussed enough over the years, so my question is..

 

 

Just how well did Hot Cakes actually sell? ?

 

I mean, if they are the benchmark comparison...

 

?

It's a miracle that I just discovered that hot cakes are pancakes.

[zzip]

[fiddlepaddle]

One way to evaluate how well hotcakes sell:

Nobody says syrup sells like hotcakes; but it must, right?

In fact, because there are probably more additional applications for syrup than just for hotcakes, syrup likely sells faster. So, "sells like syrup" describes something that sells at least as fast as something that sells like hotcakes.

Conversely, maybe something that does not sell as fast as hotcakes but still sells fast we could say it sells like biscuits.

So, for example, if the NES sold like hotcakes, Nintendo-approved games sold like syrup, and Tetris sold like biscuits.

R.O.B. sold like parsley since it's often left on the plate, maybe missing pieces.