Recommendations for someone who is new to 2nd and 1st gen games?

[dudeguy]

I grew up on NES and newer, never sat down to play an Atari home console older than a Jaguar. couldnt tell you what an Intellivision or Odyssey 2 look like. What consoles and games would you recommend to someone who doesnt want to break the bank? I have TVs that can accept any of the old inputs, even the old that pre-dates RF. Im not too picky about genre but I just prefer to play on real hardware that is unmodded.

 

I'm familiar with some of the Atari 2600 library but never gave it much of a chance. Pitfall was pretty fun. Though admittedly its hard for me to grasp the concept of playing a game you cant beat (outside of Pac-Man and Donkey Kong)

[Osgeld]

2600 is probably the safest bet for "first gen program on a cartridge" system ("generations can start a whole trip down the rabbit hole, so lets start there) as they sold a billion of the things and the library is huge so everything about them is relatively inexpensive and every inch of power has been sucked out of them for some impressive (for an atari 2600) games

 

Intellivision is a upgrade when comparing its games to the earlier 2600 games but its not a HUGE step up where you start getting into the 2nd gen systems...

 

Atari console(s) at this time are decent but quirky and not that robust, had small libraries and didnt sell that well ... I am a fan of the colecovision, that is what I had growing up until I bought a SEGA genesis. That system is getting close to the "arcade experience in your home" the controllers suck having a short flat disc joystick (but at least its not flush like the int, it does stick out) but one with decent contacts is quite playable. The Z80 cpu and Texas Instruments powered audio / video can get sort of close to the earliest of NES games and was used in a handful of other systems, like the first couple sega home consoles, and MSX computer line, so its not uncommon to see ports pop up as new content.

 

controllers, just keep in mind, a thought like ergonomics... even in the NES days, was some radical hippy nonsense. They are going to be 40+ years old and pretty much all of them used stamped sheet metal snap domes of some sort, that has work hardened to the point of being darn near dead. There are tricks to get them working better, there are rebuild kits (I sometimes sell one for the 2600 joystick, its quite the improvement)  but unless your totally in for the whole retro experience ** the "Atari standard" joystick port lasted a while, and a sega genesis gamepad will plug directly in 2600 and some other consoles, can be modded for colecovision use, and decent modern replacements are cheap and plentiful 

 

*and a beefed up hotrodded version as the master system

 

**which to me means get the crappiest TV, stick it in a uncomfortable corner of the spare junk room, and have parents who refuse to run the AC in July with an open window so all you hear is KABOOM, crickets and frogs as you hunch over in a wooden chair sweating your butt off

[Mikebloke]

Never heard the argument that 2600 is first gen, but yes the 2600 is a nice little system to collect for and really shows how old games progressed even through the period of one console, common games are cheap, but will be difficult if you want a large or rare collection. 

 

For the chance of a complete collection, the odyssey2 / videopac is a classic system that it is indeed possible to collect a large or complete set (either for your region alone or worldwide). Games are a mix of early to mid level 2600, some of the last ones stretch the complexity but not really to the same level as 2600.

 

If you want arcade level games, then colecovision is a must, it has some weird controllers which some games is locked to, and a bit similar to 2600 and the videopac has some common games quite cheap, but the price gets progressively more expensive after the first 15-20 games (and usually only unboxed too). 

 

For genuine first generation consoles, your options are limited due to the lack of options. The magnavox odyssey is quite expensive and increasingly hard to find, but the pc-50x line in Europe is quite cheap and has a total of 5 games - I believe there is one franchised version for the US but there is loads elsewhere in the world.

 

There is a couple of alternatives such as the coleco telstar arcade with its triangle carts and the continental European system telespiel which is black and white only which has a similar number of games each. Simply, in first gen consoles after the odyssey, the game carts are generally 'consoles' with all the chips and the console itself is merely a set of ports for input and output. The games on all these systems look like very basic 2600 release games from 1977.

 

Systems not mentioned include intellivision and the fairchild channel f. I love both but I think unless you are going for everything or you have a specific reason for it, they aren't as collectable / fun to play. 

[Osgeld]

Quote

Never heard the argument that 2600 is first gen

yea I mean its not, but I think its safe to assume most people would equate "video game system" as "theres a box with a computer in it, here's some media with software, lets jam them together and BLAM your playing Greendog" that happened with the Fairchild Channel F (76), then Atari VCS (77), Bally Asctrocade (78), and whatever else I am missing.   

 

And that's where I say generations is a rabbit hole, da-pedia has those listed as second gen systems, but what is first, dedicated pong consoles, most of those are computerized setup's with different variants baked into logic , the odyssey? That thing is 100% analog and its cards were basically setting jumpers for things like timers and oscillators, there's projection games before that... and of course nerds fiddling with mainframes and mini computers ... it can never end 

 

Anyway I don't want to start a debate or derail, other than the choices I listed above, maybe I would start looking at some of the 8 bit computers (like an atari XL or XE, or C64) for games I like the Atari computers, since they made them so long, something like a 65XE can play games that go from "decent upgrade from VCS 2600" to "this is better than the NES version" on one box... though it is a computer not a console (cough XEGS, ya I know it was made in the late 80's but it can run 1979 atari computer carts)

Edited May 3, 2022 by Osgeld

[CatPix]

The Odyssey isn't analog, it use logic gates, the internal logic is digital in the purest sense, even if it's not "computer" logic per se.

But yeah the distinction between generations are a bit fuzzy.

Tho I think here everyone will agree that 1st and 2nd gen is pre-83.

 

The 2600 is a good choice indeed, can't go wrong, it's cheap and has tons of games to choose from.

I would recommand the Intellivision over the Colecovision, CV are expensive, fragile, and while the games are impressive for the era, they may feel like watered-down arcade ports for someone that don't have experience with earlier consoles.

And that's a problem with generations, the CV is closer in power of being an early 3rd gen system (and recent homebrews show it well) than a late 2nd gen system.

It's quite the interesting system for this, being made with all the quirks of the 2nd Gen with those controllers, controller tray on the console, expansions modules planned from the get go, but the capabilities of 3rd gen graphic wise. One could argue that the original Famicom also have some of those 2d gen remnants attached to it!

 

The Intellivision is quirky yes, but the sound and feel is quite defining of the second generation IMO, and the fact that Mattel hired young programmers to create original content in addition of porting arcade games also showcase some ideas of "home gaming" of the time, when people weren't forced to think "arcade game".

Style that existed also on the 2600 which received RPG and adventure games that you wouldn't have seen on arcade.

 

Of course different opinions for different folks But if anything, being wrong with picking an Intellivision is a cheap mistake, not with the CV, unfortunately.

[zzip]

On 5/1/2022 at 6:12 PM, dudeguy said:

I'm familiar with some of the Atari 2600 library but never gave it much of a chance. Pitfall was pretty fun. Though admittedly its hard for me to grasp the concept of playing a game you cant beat (outside of Pac-Man and Donkey Kong)

The goal was usually to beat someone else's high score, although some games do have endings

 

On 5/2/2022 at 10:46 PM, Osgeld said:

yea I mean its not, but I think its safe to assume most people would equate "video game system" as "theres a box with a computer in it, here's some media with software, lets jam them together and BLAM your playing Greendog" that happened with the Fairchild Channel F (76), then Atari VCS (77), Bally Asctrocade (78), and whatever else I am missing.   

 

And that's where I say generations is a rabbit hole, da-pedia has those listed as second gen systems, but what is first, dedicated pong consoles, most of those are computerized setup's with different variants baked into logic , the odyssey? That thing is 100% analog and its cards were basically setting jumpers for things like timers and oscillators, there's projection games before that... and of course nerds fiddling with mainframes and mini computers ... it can never end 

The old school way to number generations was:

 

First Gen - discrete "pong" units.  You might be able to select from among a few game variations with a knob but they did not accept cartridges

Second Gen - (1976/77) cartridge based (and color) systems-   Atari 2600, Odyssey 2, Intellivision, Channel F and a few others

Third Gen- (1982)- Atari 5200, Colecovision, Vectrex 

Late Third Gen/4th Gen (1983-1985) - NES, Atari 7800, Sega Master System

 

The new way to number them is

First Gen - pong systems

Second Gen - any cartridge systems released before the crash

Third Gen - NES, 7800, SMS

 

But yeah there are plenty of ways to split hairs with systems that don't neatly fit into a particular gen and systems that are forgotten.   

[pacman000]

Seems you already have a 2600. What games (besides Pitfall!) do you have & enjoy?

[+jgkspsx]

On 5/4/2022 at 7:59 AM, CatPix said:

And that's a problem with generations, the CV is closer in power of being an early 3rd gen system (and recent homebrews show it well) than a late 2nd gen system.

It's quite the interesting system for this, being made with all the quirks of the 2nd Gen with those controllers, controller tray on the console, expansions modules planned from the get go, but the capabilities of 3rd gen graphic wise. One could argue that the original Famicom also have some of those 2d gen remnants attached to it!

I mean, the Colecovision is essentially the same hardware as the Sega SG-1000 and the MSX computer spec. It’s a very powerful system. After all, the SG-1000’s chipset went on (with a lot of help) to power the Sega Master System and lived on inside the Genesis as well.

[CatPix]

Yes if we want to go in tech wise, it's the same chip than in several other systems or close to be.

It's why I said it's close in power to a 3rd gen console and why I would really consider making it part of the 3rd gen instead of the second.

The CV is really sitting on the fence.

However, as I said, the system has all the 2d gen quirks, and the games that appeared on the system mostly reflect a "2nd gen mindset" than a 3rd gen, which make sense. What we could consider 3rd gen gaming appeared mostly with SMB in 1985 so it couldn't appear on the CV.

As I said, if you look at the Famicom and early titles for it you also get 2nd Gen feeling as well. Even the NES redesign, with the VCR look and the ZIF connector, can be tied to the woodgrain and brown styling of the Intelli and the boxy design of the CV in order to looks like a video appliance. (in contrast, the Master System for me looks more like a stereo system part).

[+jgkspsx]

Famicom and SG-1000 started with a very second generation mindset but also infused with the home computer revolution. You could say that the INTV had some of that too with Utopia etc.

[Pixelboy]

If you have no experience with pre-NES systems, you should start by trying games from that era under emulation. Emulation for Atari, Intellivision and ColecoVision is pretty mature now, so if "crappier-than-NES" graphics don't bother you too much, it really comes down to the kinds of games you're interested in playing on those systems.

 

If you're looking for games that remind you of the NES games you enjoyed, I can tell you right now that your expectations are already too high from the get-go. The closest you'll find to the NES is the ColecoVision, which is a system with no hardware-based scrolling capabilities (unlike the NES) and cartridges limited to 32K (this limit has been broken with homebrews released over the last decade, but that's probably not a good option for you because ColecoVision homebrews are generally expensive to buy and you said you didn't want to "break the bank").

 

If you're open to experiencing old-school gaming from the early 80s without always comparing it to gaming on the NES, then you'll find plenty to discover if you're willing to explore all the games available. Every system has its gems.

 

[zzip]

2 hours ago, CatPix said:

However, as I said, the system has all the 2d gen quirks, and the games that appeared on the system mostly reflect a "2nd gen mindset" than a 3rd gen, which make sense. What we could consider 3rd gen gaming appeared mostly with SMB in 1985 so it couldn't appear on the CV.

As I said, if you look at the Famicom and early titles for it you also get 2nd Gen feeling as well. Even the NES redesign, with the VCR look and the ZIF connector, can be tied to the woodgrain and brown styling of the Intelli and the boxy design of the CV in order to looks like a video appliance. (in contrast, the Master System for me looks more like a stereo system part).

Many generations start off by looking like the last.  It takes some time for the "next gen" games to show up.   Problem was that CV and 5200 got killed off before this had a chance to happen.

 

There was a lot of innovation in video games in 1984/85, driven by the explosion in home computers, but still a lot of these computer games made their way to consoles as well.

 

The typical 2nd generation "space game" was something like Asteroids, Space Invaders (and countless clones), Defender-  dark games, 2D side view, kind of minimalist graphics.

 

Then in 1984 Lucasfilm brings out "Rescue On Fractalus".  It was intended to be published on 5200 the same year.   Suddenly you have a space game in 3D first person.   You land on space stations, you fly down to explore a planet with 3D Topography and a distinct atmosphere while avoiding enemy ships and turrets, land to pick up stranded pilots, sometimes get jump-scared by aliens.   There was nothing on any of the actual 2nd gen consoles close to this at the time.  If this game wasn't next gen, what is?  Then they also did Ballblazer which you could argue is Pong taken to a whole other level.   

 

I think if these systems survived we'd see more developments like these and 3rd gen gaming might have gone off in a different direction than one where the side-scrolling platformer dominates everything.

[mr_me]

For that era of games you should play the arcade classics, either in MAME or at a retro arcade, e.g. arcade Asteroids, Missile Command, Defender, Donkey Kong, Tempest, Galaxian, etc.  For the home consoles, look at cartridges that aren't arcade conversions, designed for play at home.  The 2600, Intellivision, Colecovision all have their share.  Colecovision also has some conversions from the Atari 800 and Commodore 64.  The C64 is another system to consider.

 

If by first gen you mean pong, then the 2600 with Video Olympics  is probably the best pong system to get.

Edited May 6, 2022 by mr_me

[mr_me]

On 5/1/2022 at 6:12 PM, dudeguy said:

...

I'm familiar with some of the Atari 2600 library but never gave it much of a chance. Pitfall was pretty fun. Though admittedly its hard for me to grasp the concept of playing a game you cant beat (outside of Pac-Man and Donkey Kong)

The Intellivision has a number of cartridges with win/lose scenarios, e.g. Advanced Dungeons & Dragons, Dreadnaught Factor, Space Battle, Sub Hunt, Star Strike, Bomb Squad, Hover Force, Microsurgeon, Truckin, Treasure of Tarmin, Tower of Doom.  A cartridge like Thunder Castle has three different phases to defeat but then repeats at higher difficulty.  A cartridge like Tron Deadly Discs is about high score, although you can feel you defeated the game when you reach a million points and the guards come out.  Similarly with Night Stalker, you can feel you defeated the game once they start sending out invisible robots.  If you try Intellivision, do take a couple minutes to read the intructions for each cartridge.