Some just never learn, or maybe just not capable to understand ..

[ParanoidLittleMan]

https://www.atari-forum.com/viewtopic.php?f=15&t=41984&sid=aec91ecaf4e0be23a69d2adb2f7ecf6c

There is this in one reply:   "Also, a way better hard driver emulator for ST is ACSI2STM (it enables you to use generic FAT-16 formatted SD cards, it has an integrated driver):
https://github.com/retro16/acsi2stm    "

 

If those who run, control that forum (and consider self as some who knows about Atari ST mass storage) would care at least little they should write there something. Will it happen next days ? Hardly. They did not react on same stupidity written by Simbo, years ago. He was banned not because writing stupidities, but because was not 'nice' with forum bosses (and that's biggest crime ? ) .

It's "fascinating" - to link something and writing things which are not at all on that page.

 

First error is 'hard driver emulator' -  it is 'hard drive emulator' on linked page, and that's correct. Even if I don't like using word emulator in this case.

Emulating hard driver - that would be SW - and how can some external device connected to ACSI port to emulate SW running on Atari ST ?  In reality that would be possible with very special way of working - but then it would need complete different hard disk driver SW . And I know that it works with regular type hard disk driver SW - for instance with mine ?

 

So, I will explain here in short how things work. And it is not Atari ST specific. Basically all computers at about 1983 use same concept. Because it is very practical, flexible.

So, there is filesystem driver code in OS , usually hard disk part of it works with FAT16 (talking about mainstream computers of 80-es, early 90-es, before FAT32 and others, and not Amiga, MAC ) .  That code is complex, and takes tens of KB in ST's TOS ROM .  Hard disk driver is some kind of bridge between OS filesystem and hard disk (or now rather Flash card adapter) . Hard disk driver will boot before FAT filesystem is activated, and that means among other that can not boot it with usual file load command. It is loaded by low level disk access - what means by position on disk/Flash card - in further text:  media.

And that way of access will be used when filesystem is activated.  OS will use driver code to perform low level disk access - reading or writing to specific disk areas (sectors) - if they are not in one continous block then in multiple steps.   Task of hard disk driver SW is: to init attached device properly. Then to perform by OS initiated media access-es.  What consists basically from converting LBA (logical block address) to format used by different protocols (IDE, ACSI, SCSI ...) .   In that process LBA inside partition needs to be converted to absolute one on media (so driver SW will just add starting sector pos. of partition to address what got from filesystem - which gives partition # too, of course.

So, in short:  diverse hard disks, Flash cards, their adapters support not any filesystem . They perform data transfers based on location on media. And that's absolute pos on it always.

 

[mikro]

Although I know what you want to say here, your mocking of the user there is completely off because this is what he meant: https://github.com/retro16/acsi2stm/blob/stable/doc/a2setup.md and YES, this is an integrated FAT16 driver, only not for usage directly with the Atari but for storing disk images which are to be exposed to the Atari.

[ParanoidLittleMan]

Your mocking, dear mikro is what is completely off .  Because how it was written by that user implies that integrated driver is usable with Ataris.

Storing multiple mages on 1 card, what will be used with Ataris - that was done in CosmosEx, for instance. And don't remember that it was called integrated driver. All what need is to add position of that image on Flash card when using with Atari - solvable with simple setup SW.

 

This case just shows importance of careful reading what is written, to know basic things. 

For instance, with today capacities FAT16 driver is not really useful. It should have NTFS - FAT32 can not handle large files (maybe new MS version, where max file size is over 4 GB, but that's not spread yet).  Not to mention max partition size - what is it ?

Long talk about well known things (sadly for few people) .

How usage goes now:  get more lower capacity cards (still more capacity now than FAT16 with 1 partition can handle) - and use them in boot mode.

No reason to get bigger than 8 GB because of TOS limits (look about it on my site if don't know them).

Modern OS-es are able to access TOS/DOS compatible partitions well. And even Win flaw of accessing only first partition on removables is corrected now, so data transfer is simple and fast. If not afraid from Total Command, even better ?

 

[Dopy25]

On 7/3/2022 at 1:16 AM, ParanoidLittleMan said:

Storing multiple mages on 1 card, what will be used with Ataris - that was done in CosmosEx, for instance.

 

Please learn the difference between images, and mages. An image can be a file, whereas a mage is a magic wielder. 

[ParanoidLittleMan]

It was clearly mistype. Get life.

[Keatah]

..as was all the other shit. In fact this whole thread is a mistype!

Edited July 7, 2022 by Keatah

[Dopy25]

31 minutes ago, ParanoidLittleMan said:

It was clearly mistype. Get life.

I wanted to point out how ridiculous it sounds to grab onto silly, non relevant issues in random posts. It is easier to determine the intent than it is to get so worked up to the point of making an entire post about it.

[ParanoidLittleMan]

Intent ? Good intent performed recklessly often results in harming people, making damage.  My critic was actually what was good intent. And I knew that there will be those not liking it. Because for many people form, look is more important than essence.   And now we are where we are - dumb people controls planet.

[Dopy25]

16 minutes ago, ParanoidLittleMan said:

Intent ? Good intent performed recklessly often results in harming people, making damage.  My critic was actually what was good intent. And I knew that there will be those not liking it. Because for many people form, look is more important than essence.   And now we are where we are - dumb people controls planet.

But picking at someone's error and strictly pointing it out for the sake of pointing it out, without actually helping them, is poor. No matter if it contains good intent.

 

All I am saying is; provide advice for the question being asked instead of jumping in just to point out someone typed something wrong. Please?

[Keops]

Perfect example of useless and toxic flame bait that nobody is interested in when coming here to read about Atari stuff.

Hopefully this will get moderated.

[ParanoidLittleMan]

Just confirmed thread title. If you are not interested, does that means that nobody is .... We are not same. Some like to be accurate, and that's essential with computers. Some like simple explanations - well, they are insufficient in most cases. And it is easier to get insulted instead attitude: maybe I need to do it better, to think about more details, etc .

 

[Grazey]

Here we go…..

[OldSchoolRetroGamer]

It's the superior condescending attitude that begins with the title that pisses people off ?, but then it is YOU so I am sure nobody is surprised, the tired excuse of differences is native language wore out long ago. Did you know you can actually convey thought and ideas and points WITHOUT talking down or insulting others with garbage like "or maybe just not capable to understand", whether a true statement or not you don't have to include it. The fact you have no issue with the title just shows why you are the problem ?‍♂️ it would seem when it comes to your attitude and how you present yourself that it is in fact YOU that never learns or is in fact incapable of understanding why it comes off as insulting. When every reply is literally telling you what the issue is instead of discussing your "subject" maybe consider, just possibly that you in fact made the mistake, I know, it's an incredible thing to ask of one as superior as you but otherwise, well, you will see where this thread goes. I will expect though instead even IF you reply you will once again brush all points aside and go on once again about why I and everyone else is wrong and you are clearly right. ?

Edited July 9, 2022 by OldSchoolRetroGamer

[+CyranoJ]

pperror.

[bfollowell]

25 minutes ago, OldSchoolRetroGamer said:

It's the superior condescending attitude that begins with the title that pisses people off ?, but then it is YOU so I am sure nobody is surprised, the tired excuse of differences is native language wore out long ago. Did you know you can actually convey thought and ideas and points WITHOUT talking down or insulting others with garbage like "or maybe just not capable to understand", whether a true statement or not you don't have to include it. The fact you have no issue with the title just shows why you are the problem ?‍♂️ it would seem when it comes to your attitude and how you present yourself that it is in fact YOU that never learns or is in fact incapable of understanding why it comes off as insulting. When every reply is literally telling you what the issue is instead of discussing your "subject" maybe consider, just possibly that you in fact made the mistake, I know, it's an incredible thing to ask of one as superior as you but otherwise, well, you will see where this thread goes. I will expect though instead even IF you reply you will once again brush all points aside and go on once again about why I and everyone else is wrong and you are clearly right. ?

 

I agree with this 100%. I have never seen anyone that has done so much to help the Atari ST community, all while also being so rude, belligerent, and condescending in his correspondence with pretty much any and everyone. It really is baffling. I agree, this isn't a language problem. It's an attitude and personality issue that transcends language and culture. I start off every one of his new threads thinking, maybe this one will be different, but almost every single one quickly heads down the same path. It's like a train wreck. I want to look away, but I just can't help myself. I always have to see where they go, knowing all the while that we'll almost inevitably wind up in the same place.
 

[ParanoidLittleMan]

Saying truth may be rude. But life is actually same with people - giving them truth, which is often rude. This last years more often.

I was insulted 100x more than I 'insulted' other people. Because I did it in good intention. Others did it because own stupidity, selfishness, arrogance, wanting to be 'kings' - example CJ ala D-Bug - talking about stealing code and other crap . Nobody on Atari forums was not offended by such extremely arrogant and selfish behavior (saying rude would be understatement).

And to add: I don't care what you lamers (that stays especially for those writing last few 'replies' here). You just have no clue what I wrote here, why I wrote it. Have no clue what real values in life are.

 

And again - that writing about 'integrated driver' was total wrong - and even unnecessary. But I guess he wanted to say something big, something not so common ...  And most of people think that it is some kind of opinion.  There is no 'opinion' in math, in boolean algebra, in way how TOS, mass storage adapters work (as said it in not Atari ST, TOS specific) .  And yet, they talk here about insults, being rude and other baby cry things (hey, I watched some US movies ! )

So, I would ask moderators to close this thread. I really don't care for what some biased people will find to write here ...

And hey, too much posts for Saturday - normally here is about 1-2 new post in that day. Sorry that I made it more. I'm really bad person.

Why to care about facts, logic when it can insult/offend some so nice people (sorry, quote keys took weekend off) .

 

[OldSchoolRetroGamer]

Exactly the reply expected, no self awareness, just excuses......it's always everybody else, such a victim, please, carry on....

 

 

 

 

 

Edited July 9, 2022 by OldSchoolRetroGamer

[ParanoidLittleMan]

Stop spamming. You think that because you did put here some anim. your post is now cool.  You have no clue about what I wrote.  You see only surface. Yes, I will add one more 'offense' : you are so shallow.

Close this thread. Really waste of time to talk to some ...

[OldSchoolRetroGamer]

3 hours ago, ParanoidLittleMan said:

Close this thread. Really waste of time to talk to some ...

First intelligent thing you have suggested. 

[youxia]

4 hours ago, ParanoidLittleMan said:

Stop spamming.

It's amazing that you have the gall to say something like that, after starting a topic here which is basically a rant about something somebody said on a different forum - which is usually considered very poor form. And I think it's safe to say 98.4% people here won't know or care about your ancient/ongoing beefs which are based elsewhere.

 

I think @bfollowel said it best above, that you're clearly one of the most knowledgeable people in the ST community, who has contributed a lot (paywall notwithstanding) to it, but who also often displays a simply unbearable attitude. I'm just glad that I'm a "lamer" - casual ST user, who can get by with using floppies, and doesn't have to rely on your HD installs. Having to put up with all the mood swings and random sermons would be a bit too much of a price.

 

I still appreciate what you are doing for the ST scene but also hope you'll think twice before starting another thread like this one.

 

[ParanoidLittleMan]

OK, since I'm "one of the most knowledgeable" with Atari ST - and would not agree with term community - it is not community where some obviously hate some others - and here we had mostly posts of such people - first reply was from mikro, who constantly does same. Instead thinking more. Then number of D-Bug fans, D-Bug members ... Actually, I should be flattered - because all their posts here lately are saying something negative about/to me ?  

What community is such where someone talks loudly (capital letters) about stealing code ? Without any proof. And did someone reacted on it ?

Nope. Not reacting on blatant lies about my SW on D-Bug site.  This is just low. But nothing rare in today society.  World is in crysis because people allow bad ones to lie, steal, abuse, etc . It is easier to hate someone, some nation, country - and that is used by evil forces (and was since ancient times) .  Only way to make things is being smart, working together (syndicates, political groups and like). And not believe anything to those on power. And they are more and more shallow too - talking irreal things, forging numbers (about inflation for example) . Here they say that we have now 'war inflation' - Huh ! And what caused pretty big already inflation in 2020, more in 2021 ?  Could continue, but already see comments that I went off topic, political ....   Well, it is actually universal thing, human behavior, and there are same things in diverse community layers. 

 

So, to go more topic with being smart:  things written in public forums, WEBsites were read by many people, and they can publish same on other places. So, wrong claims may spread like some virus - and yes, it has negative effects. Copying something just because assuming that it must be correct.  Example: I saw lot of bad ST, MSA floppy images at diverse sites hosting them - year about 2005 . There were even corrupted ZIP files - like 30 KB long menu disk dump - not possible to pack to so low size - they are usually full with packed data.  Some just cared about quantity, doing it fast . Then, for what is good to have 3-4 images of same crack or whatever, which differ only in few bytes in bootsector ? Ah, again quantity before quality - what a great collection - 35000 ST floppy images of Atari SW !

But there is better example:  I saw on lot sites, in forums claim that TOS has limit for first partition size on hard disks  ? - some claimed 16 MB, some 32 MB. What should then depend from TOS version. But was not specified which versions have which limit.  And again case of copying false claim on more and more sites, postings ...   Since I dealt a lot with TOS, hard disk drivers, I know the right answer (what is of course proven in practice, tests):  there is no special first hard disk partition size limit by Atari ST TOS, any version. All partitions handled by ROM TOS have same size limit. Which depends from TOS version. There are pages where it was described in more details.  http://atari.8bitchip.info/ASTfamMS.html

All partitions were handled by same code, with same parameter tables, so really no reason why first partition would be handled different by TOS.

Limits exist, but it is hard disk driver SW what is cause.  And to add another insult: not well concepted driver SW.  The reason for limit is limited space in bootsector and limited imagination of coders.  Or just being not able, interested in changing concept:  if 512 bytes is not enough, can load another sectors with very short code, where will be enough space to load that DRIVER.SYS (or whatever name) from partition C  .

And of course, there is space for it before first partition (what can be defined to whatever want) . Or can solve whole thing without any driver SYS file in C  .

I wrote about this many years ago already. Did someone corrected that mistake on his site ? I don't know about.

And instead thank you I getting what - read above ...   So much folks . 

For end to quote here best shirt text I ever saw. It was on one younger girl, likely little nerdy  :  "If you don't understand what I'm saying it does not mean that I'm crazy" .

 

[mikro]

4 hours ago, ParanoidLittleMan said:

it is not community where some obviously hate some others - and here we had mostly posts of such people - first reply was from mikro, who constantly does same

Do I, really? I assure you, I have no reason to feel any kind of hatred towards you. I don't know you, after all.

 

But that doesn't mean that if you post some technically incorrect (you love reminding people how you care about technical arguments, don't you?) information, especially with that arrogant and uppish attitude, that I will be quiet.

 

The guy wrote:

 

"Also, a way better hard driver emulator for ST is ACSI2STM (it enables you to use generic FAT-16 formatted SD cards, it has an integrated driver)"

 

- Is there a product called ACSI2STM? Yup.

- Can it handle SD cards? Yup.

- Can it handle FAT16 formatted SD cards? Yup.

- Is it thanks to its integrated driver? Yup.

 

But instead of admitting that perhaps you read his post too quickly or that perhaps there is more than one way of interpretation, no, our good old Ppera starts his shit storm again and again. For no reason, for no benefit, not even on the forum in question. Sooner or later you'll get banned from AA as well and I'm pretty sure you still wont learn you lesson, even after how many bans on other Atari forums? I've lost count already.

Edited July 10, 2022 by mikro

[ParanoidLittleMan]

Only really wrong statement (logic) in post above is : "

"Can it handle FAT16 formatted SD cards? Yup. - Is it thanks to its integrated driver? Yup."

Totally wrong.  All adapters, hard disks, Flash cards can handle FAT16 formatted media.  Again, because it is not on them - it is on computer OS, filesystem handler.

[mikro]

Really. So I buy, say, SatanDisk or UltraSatan, I put a FAT16-formatted card inside and what happens? Nothing happens. Unless you use a driver offered by a computer OS. Exactly as you say.

 

Oh wait, that nearly sounds like a device-integrated driver could make a difference here? Oh and it does, it reads the content of the FAT16-formatted card and handles file images found there.

 

Give it up Ppera, you simply can't win this one.

[ParanoidLittleMan]

Totally spot on mikro ! - yeah, me, who coded, designed hard disk drivers for diverse adapters , and even some adapters, for Atari ST family, sold hundreds of copies, got positive feedback in 99 % case, I'm who don't know how all it works.  Sarcasm mode over.

 

Read diverse articles, WEB sites how whole chain from storage media via adapter (or multiple adapters), then via port on computer, hard disk driver SW, then OS filesystem handler (in this case FAT16) works. I don't ask that you thank me after realize how wrong you are. 

But if you refuse to even consider it, then .... 

http://atari.8bitchip.info/ASTfamMS.html

There is more, with deeper details.

Yeah, thread title is understatement for some people. Some even don't see what is ahead of this nose, or just few mouse clicks away online.

In short - card adapter, hard disk works just on purely disk geometry based data access - and I wrote about it in this forum couple times already.

There are only such commands for ACSI, SCSI, IDE ...  By your integrated driver in adapter theory, it should work filename based. Now, give me then commands what OS should give to adapter to access concrete file named MIKROISB.EST . 

How is that you can work with FAT32 partitions from Ataris, when no FAT32 support in adapters ?