The "hack or homebrew" question

[Zach]

hack or a homebrew?

 

This question was recently asked of Cybergoth's Ace game. I have thought a lot about this issue, since the same has been asked of my project. My conclusion is that a game can be a hack AND a homebrew. Anything that modifies code from another game is clearly a hack, yet enough work has been put into some games to warrant homebrew status. The homebrew quality of a hack is best thought of as a shade of gray rather than a black & white category. Cybergoth essentially said the same thing when he said his Ace project was 80% hack (therefore 20% homebrew).

 

Of course, we still need to make decisions about how to classify games for the AtariAge store, the awards, etc. I suggest that each hack be judged individually for the context at hand. For example, whether to nominate an ambitious hack as a homebrew for the Stan awards, StanJr gets the final call. For the store, it would be perfectly OK for a hack with a strong homebrew component to appear in both categories.

 

Well, there's my thoughts. What about yours?

[+Nathan Strum]

I like the idea of the third category - Hackbrew.

 

A Homebrew is a completely original work.

 

A Hack is a simple hack, with minor code changes. The gameplay remains basically the same as the original.

 

A Hackbrew would be a game which is based on existing code, but introduces significant changes and original elements to the game, essentially redefining the gameplay.

 

(Maybe Hybrid would be a better term.)

[NE146]

I don't really care one way or the other.. Who came up with the term "homebrew" anyway? Always hated that one.. (and still refuse to use that term)

[Godzilla]

maybe we should call them 'sexy codes' ??? (JK)

[Thomas Jentzsch]

A Homebrew is a completely original work.

No homebrew is completely original. Everybody is using and modifying code others invented.

 

A Hackbrew...

Hackbrew TM please!

 

...would be a game which is based on existing code, but introduces significant changes and original elements to the game, essentially redefining the gameplay.

But where exactly do significant changes start? How about e.g. Adventure Plus?

[Video]

A homebrew is so little of the original games code left, or enough different in code, or playability to declair it it's own game.

 

Take Eric Ball's Skelleton as an example. There is one other game on Atari 2600, that's first person, but it looks very different different, and plays very different. You didn't shoot, and you could back up. There totally different games. It's a true homebrew.

If an original company did this, they could tout it as a completely independant and original game.

 

Now Take Space Invaders Arcade. This game is based on the original SI code, looks prety much the same, and plays prety much the same. Difference is colors are altered. It's a complete hack.

If the original company did it, it'd still be Space invaders, but it'd be version 1.1, you know?

 

How about Pac-Man arcade though? It's a hack of Ms Pac-man, but it in no way plays like the game it's supposed to replace (pac-Man) What is this? Middle ground somewhere? Great game, that's a true hack, but could have easily passed as a homebrew as it in no way shares code with Pac-Man.

If Atari had released this, they would have probably called it Pac-Man Arcade themselves, rather than Pac-Man 1.1 as it's totally different from the original. But technically, is still a hack.

 

Hack is just there to let people know the programmer used an original game and just changed it a bit to make a new game. But not enough different to justify calling it a homebrew. But middleground games would be hard to figure out. What would the rules be for putting that title on a game? How much leway do peole have? You know, it'd make determining what a game is a little hard.

[SS]

maybe we should call them 'sexy codes' ???  (JK)

 

 

YOU GET TO BED!

[HermChase]

Hmm....I like the idea of a "middle ground".

That way, people who have some ASM (Assembly) skill could add some features to a game, and be "judged" in their own class, keeping the spirits of the pure "hackers" up, and not hurting the Homebrewers, either. Plus, "hackbrew" is a brilliant term. I can see it now...

 

 

 

--------

Chase Hermsen

[+Nathan Strum]

I don't really care one way or the other.. Who came up with the term "homebrew" anyway? Always hated that one.. (and still refuse to use that term)

 

I don't know where it originated (other than actually brewing assorted liquid refreshments), but it was used in the mid 70's by the Homebrew Computer Club, where early personal computer hobbyists got together and compared notes on those new-fangled computer things (and where Steve Wozniak first showed his homebuilt computer, which would become the prototype for the Apple I).

 

No homebrew is completely original. Everybody is using and modifying code others invented.

 

How about "mostly original"? ie. Not being derived primarily from an existing singular work.

 

Now Take Space Invaders Arcade.  This game is based on the original SI code, looks prety much the same, and plays prety much the same.  Difference is colors are altered.  It's a complete hack.  

If the original company did it, it'd still be Space invaders, but it'd be version 1.1, you know?

 

How about Pac-Man arcade though?  It's a hack of Ms Pac-man, but it in no way plays like the game it's supposed to replace (pac-Man)  What is this?  Middle ground somewhere?

 

I think Pac-Man Arcade would qualify as a Hackbrew . It altered the structure of the original work pretty radically. The mazes were reduced to a single, different maze. The bonuses were all changed, and no longer moved around the playfield. Even though it's still a similar maze chase game, it's very different in terms of the strategies needed to play it.

 

I suppose the equivilant in Space Invaders would be if you changed how many Invaders there were, and how they moved (ie. if it were changed into something like Galaga).

[StanJr]

This certainly is a tough nut to crack.

 

I'm totally unsure of how to vote. More discussions please!

[EricBall]

A homebrew is so little of the original games code left, or enough different in code, or playability to declair it it's own game.

 

I'd say that homebrews are started from scratch, possibly using routines and ideas from other works. While hacks and hackbrews are modified versions of existing games (to a lesser or greater degree). It's kinda like music: are you sampling a riff, or re-interpretting the whole song.

 

Take Eric Ball's Skelleton as an example.  There is one other game on Atari 2600, that's first person, but it looks very different different, and plays very different.

 

Just to clarify: Skeleton was programmed from scratch. I wasn't even aware of the two or three first person maze games for the 2600 when I started. Any similarities between Skeleton(+) and other 2600 games is co-incidental.

 

There are other games (like Space Instigators, I believe) where the gameplay is similar to another, but where the code is unique. (Question: do Jammed and Crazy Valet share any code?)

 

For me the difference between a hack and a hackbrew would be whether the creator made changes which required disassembly & re-assembly.

[Thomas Jentzsch]

(Question: do Jammed and Crazy Valet share any code?)

A 100% No.

 

For me the difference between a hack and a hackbrew would be whether the creator made changes which required disassembly & re-assembly.

So all my controller and TV format conversion would be Hackbrews TM? IMO that's too much credits for an advanced hack.

[Cropsy]

For me the difference between a hack and a hackbrew would be whether the creator made changes which required disassembly & re-assembly.

That would place Miniature Golf + into the hackbrew category, there's not a lot of code changed but rearranging the ROM to fit in twice the amount of course data required reassembly. While the end result is more advanced than your average graphics hack I don't think there were sufficient changes justify the hackbrew label.

 

Personally I'd consider Combat AI to be definitely worth the Hackbrew or even homebrew title, other hacks I'm not sure about. I think the clonespy score would probably be a better indication than the use of an assembler as to wether a hack is worthy of the title hackbrew. Of course investigation by competent programmers like you or Thomas would work better still

[Cybergoth]

Hi there!

 

I think the clonespy score would probably be a better indication than the use of an assembler as to wether a hack is worthy of the title hackbrew.

 

I'm not sure wether Clonespy would be the right tool for that. As I said, Ace left about 80% Combat source code intact, yet I threw out over 1K unecessary code. So the actual code shared with the original Combat is less than 40%...

 

Besides, I'd rather not release a game at all, before having it filed under a label as ugly as "hackbrew"...

 

(Hey what was wrong with calling these "Modification"? I liked that!)

 

Greetings,

Manuel

[Thomas Jentzsch]

I'm not sure wether Clonespy would be the right tool for that. As I said, Ace left about 80% Combat source code intact, yet I threw out over 1K unecessary code. So the actual code shared with the original Combat is less than 40%...

80/40?

Hm, let's see:

                    0  1

0 Combat (1977)...   . 73

1 ace.............  45  .

Not that bad.

[+Nathan Strum]

Besides, I'd rather not release a game at all, before having it filed under a label as ugly as "hackbrew"...

 

How about "Homehack"? "Brewhack"? "Brewhaha"?

 

(Sorry... I'm just being silly now. Of course, it should be "Brouhaha".)

 

What about, instead of a third category, listing them as a sub-category of hacks? Maybe "Super Hack"? "Hack Plus"? "Hack Platinum"?

 

(Sorry. Again.)

 

Or, redefine the more complex hacks as "Hacks", and make the other hacks a subcategory, "Simple Hacks". That would clarify the distinction between the two a bit more, but leave some space for interpretation. Then, it would be up to the person creating the hack to decide how simple the hack was or wasn't.

 

(Well... StanJr asked for more discussions...)

[StanJr]

I'm liking "Modification"

 

Hacks suggests to me that the game was simply altered on a physical level (ie plays the same, just looks different or sounds different). Example: Undersea Adventure:)

 

Homebrew suggests to me that the game was created from scratch, ground up, no code, nothing just bam, a game. Example: Marble Craze.

 

Modification implies MORE than just a hack, but not a completely new game from scratch. Example: Adventure Plus.

 

How does that sound?

[+Nathan Strum]

Sounds like a plan!

 

How about abbreviating it "mod"? Or is that too cheesy?

[Video]

Yeah, Eric Ball, I figured your Skeleton is a complete homebrew. I guessed right. I have no Idea how to check codes, not that I'd know what to look for anyways. People mentione rom dumping, but I'm just like ??how?? But the feel and look of the game is simply different from any others, even the 3D ones.

[Godzilla]

Sounds like a plan!

 

How about abbreviating it "mod"? Or is that too cheesy?

 

too easily confused with amiga music.

keep it 'modification' or 'alteration' or 'deviant/deviance' or etc

[+Nathan Strum]

too easily confused with amiga music.

 

I didn't know it was an Amiga term. (Never got into Amigas.)

 

Modification works, I was just wondering if there was a way to shorten it a little.

 

Here's the Thesaurus entry for it:

 

Entry Word: modification

Function: noun

Text: Synonyms change, alteration, mutation, turn, variation

Related Word conversion, metamorphosis, transformation, transmogrification; qualification, tempering

 

Hmmm... I guess transmogrification probably isn't any shorter.

[HermChase]

But, then you could call it a "mogri/mogry" or a "transmo"!

 

-------

Chase Hermsen

[Classic Pac]

I know this is a 2600 forum but...

 

Where does that Sonic Mario 2 game fit in with the nes?

[StanJr]

"deviant?" wow, so Adventure Plus would be a deviant game? YIPE!

[Godzilla]

"deviant?"  wow, so Adventure Plus would be a deviant game?  YIPE!      

 

yea i prefer the term 'deviant' myself. Any extra chance I get to be a deviant is ok by me :-) especially if it doesn't get me arrested.