samurai Posted February 1, 2004 Share Posted February 1, 2004 Hi folks. I am preparing a-new-quality rmt songs for polish 6502 compo. I discovered very nice rmt bug. Raster wrote, that you cannot make 8channel tune being played 4 times per frame. And i say - Of course you can !!! You just need to: 1. Create 4channel song being played 4 times per frame 2. In the menu Song choose Song switch to 8 tracks 3. Look in the tempo line: for instance: 03/03/04 !!! Oh yes ... i needed it badly Raster: RMT is a great tracker .... i have infos from Jaskier, that you are not interested in continuing rmt development. Please dont do that. I will release a few amiga mod conversion this month. Is it possible to have a new libriaries with better pokey emulation compiled ? We could have almost the same quality on RMT as on TMC. Please, let someone do that. Tatqoo Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Heaven/TQA Posted February 1, 2004 Share Posted February 1, 2004 can't wait to here songs, sam... what kind of 6502 compo? i can not understand the rules & infos at atariarea... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
miker Posted February 1, 2004 Share Posted February 1, 2004 Elo Hve! What kind of compo? Ok - here it GOES! The target is to do anything which will fit the 6502 bytes (although it was atari-area local idea, so thus maybe no one told here about it). Anything means: music, gfx, demo, intro, utility or even game (or something totally crazy - if U want) well - i don`t tell anymore, bcoz dely may ban me perm from a-area fo it everybody may look here: http://atariarea.histeria.pl/compo/index.htm but beware - Polish only (you have been warned) cya Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Schmutzpuppe Posted February 1, 2004 Share Posted February 1, 2004 1. Create 4channel song being played 4 times per frame2. In the menu Song choose Song switch to 8 tracks 3. Look in the tempo line: for instance: 03/03/04 !!! Have you tested the song on real hardware? Raster: RMT is a great tracker .... i have infos from Jaskier, that you are not interested in continuing rmt development. That's bad news, can anyone confirm this? (Raster?) I will release a few amiga mod conversion this month. Cool Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
samurai Posted February 1, 2004 Author Share Posted February 1, 2004 I didnt tested it on real hardware - works fine on Atari800Win4.0. Tunes will be release in February of course - i mean these, which wont be presented in 6502 compo. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
samurai Posted February 1, 2004 Author Share Posted February 1, 2004 It was tested on real atari by dely. Sounds great. I hope that Raster wont stop RMT development. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
raster/c.p.u. Posted February 2, 2004 Share Posted February 2, 2004 I am preparing a-new-quality rmt songs for polish 6502 compo. It's nice to hear it. Raster wrote, that you cannot make 8channel tune being played 4 times per frame.And i say - Of course you can !!! You just need to: 1. Create 4channel song being played 4 times per frame 2. In the menu Song choose Song switch to 8 tracks 3. Look in the tempo line: for instance: 03/03/04 !!! Oh yes ... i needed it badly It's like this: 1.) In first versions of Atari RMT player routine there was a bug in VCOUNT (vertical counter) timing - that's why 3 tpf speed was allowed only. 2.) After correction of this bug I haven't tested 4 tpf speed with 8channel module so far. I don't be still certain of it works. But if you say, Samurai, that you (Dely) have been testing it and it works, then Ok, I can allow 4 tpf speed for 8 channels modules in future. Thanks. Raster: RMT is a great tracker .... i have infos from Jaskier, that you are not interested in continuing rmt development.Please dont do that. The truth is, I tell to Jaskier, that I'M VERY GLAD OF TMC2.0 project and if TMC2.0 will contains all features which RMT has (255 patterns, 256 beats pattern length, longer instrument envelopes, envelope loops, etc.), then RMT won't be needed. It isn't want of two music programs with the same possibilities. Because I assumed only some few Atari musicians are using RMT, I said I'M THINKING about FREEZE the RMT project. But if You (and/or other people) will tell me that You (they) are using the RMT and You (they) want the RMT, I will continue with RMT. Works on RMT interests me only if RMT interest you. I will release a few amiga mod conversion this month. I'm looking forward... Is it possible to have a new libriaries with better pokey emulation compiled ? We could have almost the same quality on RMT as on TMC. I'm sorry, but I'm not able to do it. If someone can do it, please, do it. Please, let someone do that. Sources of SA_POKEY libraries are published long ago... Please, if someone can implement new better pokey, do it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jaskier Posted February 2, 2004 Share Posted February 2, 2004 It isn't want of two music programs with the same possibilities. Generally yes. Two indentical programs are not a good thing. But PC program is always different than on atari. On PC you have another possibilities. You can make better interface. The program can run faster and use more than 1MB of memory. So having PC music program is also good thing. The question is about interaction between these programs. It would be the best to have the same file format, but it goes straight to WinTMC which is strange idea for me. (WinTMC as name says should have the same interface as on Atari isn't it?) So maybe RMT with TMC 2.0 player routine? What do you think raster? It may sounds strange but think that way: one file format (like html for example) and many programs to use that (IE, Mozilla, Opera etc.) We should only agree on file format, not necessary TMC. Maybe someone can propose better format? Sources of SA_POKEY libraries are published long ago... Please, if someone can implement new better pokey, do it. As I remember sa_pokey is a "cycle exact" emulation. Maybe the problem is with filters? Which sound emulator generates the best sound: Atari800 Win PLus 4.0, SAP or sa_pokey? I don't hear any difference (but I'm not a musician). But knowing that we can look into it's routine and improve sa_pokey. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
samurai Posted February 2, 2004 Author Share Posted February 2, 2004 raster: strange you ma be correct there is 04 on the screen but it sounds the same way when the 03 is on the screen (plays per frame). Is it possible that RMT only displays 04 but plays 03 ? Raster - can you check it for me that i would be sure ? Thx in advance Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
samurai Posted February 2, 2004 Author Share Posted February 2, 2004 So having PC music program is also good thing. It is definitely great idea. For me it's much easier to make music for Atari on PC because i dont have real hardware at home. But most of all I love pokey sound. So i want to make music on RMT. TMC IS THE MOST UN_USERFRIENDLY PROGRAM I HAVE EVER USED. (Sorry Jaskier but i dont like keys-mapping in tmc at all). I have not used TMC many times because of it. It's much much much easier to make tunes in RMT. So. we need PC tracker for atari. And remember - almost every main platform has its PC tracker (Goat c64, Vortex (ZX Spectrum), Adlib trackers - so why not atari one ?? And Rasterm, if you didnt continue RMT development i would stay with current version. Best Regards Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jaskier Posted February 2, 2004 Share Posted February 2, 2004 TMC IS THE MOST UN_USERFRIENDLY PROGRAM I HAVE EVER USED. You porbably never used my AFM (Atari Font Maker) program. You would change your mind It's much much much easier to make tunes in RMT. As I said PC interface is always much better than atari. It is almost impossible to make good interface with a lot of options. For example if I will implement new analmux type of sound then the only way to hear it in TMC will be to turn off the screen The problem is that analmux sound uses IRQ and TMC screen uses DLI. IRQ on Atari has higher priority than DLI. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Heaven/TQA Posted February 2, 2004 Share Posted February 2, 2004 i have to agree with samurai... (note i am not a musician)... i love to use RMT same like with graph2font (thank god it's a PC tool and not a XL one... ) just to play around, it still can be approved but purists might go for the native version but i prefer PC tools (except my lovely turbo basic... ) my real hardware is downstairs in my video game room together with my c64, gamecube, dreamcast, playstations, etc... but for coding i prefer sitting here connected to the net and code with xasm,codegenie,photoshop like tools for image stuff, playing SAP songs etc.etc.etc... if i had a whote i would go for WinTMC 2.0... more flexible and better for my eyes... but it's up to you... TMC tracks still rock, see grayscale... sack, what's your opinion as c64 guy? native or PC? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dracon Posted February 2, 2004 Share Posted February 2, 2004 TMC IS THE MOST UN_USERFRIENDLY PROGRAM I HAVE EVER USED. You porbably never used my AFM (Atari Font Maker) program. You would change your mind Don't exagerrate, please. I've been using AFM in the past and I'm still alive... AFM seems to be the most powerful atari gfx-chars editor ever until Graph2fnt comes. It has only two disadvantages: small amount of memory for bigger chars animation and a little complicated (but quite tolerable!) keyset mapping. Unfortunately only few people know and use(d) this tool - I think it's due to small promotion from author (you!) and lack of English manual... I've heard nowadays DELY uses AFM from time to time... As I said PC interface is always much better than atari. It is almost impossible to make good interface with a lot of options. right. So I don't much complain about it's interface as it gives some powerful functions (almost not found in other similar programs) in return. For example if I will implement new analmux type of sound then the only way to hear it in TMC will be to turn off the screen Don't hesistate and do it as well. I always love to hear some un-common atari sounds like Softsynth brought... Even in music compo at any computer party, screen is not necessary. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sack-c0s Posted February 2, 2004 Share Posted February 2, 2004 sack, what's your opinion as c64 guy? native or PC? Purists will disagree with me, but I prefer PC all the way. even on the C64 side of things I use GoatTracker under windows (which is a nice editor, pretty accurate given that more time has been invested in accurate SID emulation than its Atari counterpart, but the RMT editor layout blows it away in terms of ease of use). I'd like to see RMT continue, but possibly with a little native-side tool for making the odd tweak so you can get the bulk of the work done under windows and optimise slightly on the hardware itself. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
raster/c.p.u. Posted February 3, 2004 Share Posted February 3, 2004 The question is about interaction between these programs. It would be the best to have the same file format, but it goes straight to WinTMC which is strange idea for me. (WinTMC as name says should have the same interface as on Atari isn't it?)So maybe RMT with TMC 2.0 player routine? What do you think raster? I'm thinking... thinking... thinking... When I hadn't knew about TMC2.0, I was gently thinking about new version of RMT player routine (version 2.0 ) which would be near to TMC 1.0 (mainly its envelope commands, its vibrato/frqshift + speed) but with preserve most of RMT advantages (255 patterns, 256 lines songlength, filter shift effect for "like a C64 filtering", instrument loops, internal format with only 2bytes per each any_note+any_instrument+any_volume line (!) => track with 64 full any_note/any_instrument/any_volume has 128bytes only (!), etc.) Now I assume that TMC2.0 will be very near of this my vision. And maybe it will be good to don't make RMT2.0 routine (incompatible with RMT1.x of course), but adopt the TMC2.0 routine and format. But result would be the same => the end of RMT and begin of another "RCPTMT" (raster cross-plafrorm theta music tracker , it's joke only ). That's why I decided meanwhile to continue with RMT 1.x tracker(improvements, bug fixes, etc.) based on compatible RMT1.x routine. BTW - I still hope that I will find some horrible bug which is spending such much CPU power in RMT player routine. Please, do somebody have any "profiler" tool for Atari XE/XL programs??? We should only agree on file format, not necessary TMC. Maybe someone can propose better format? TMC 2.0 features seems to me be very good (with filter command change I said you). But I don't know, if its internal format could be better or not... ? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
raster/c.p.u. Posted February 3, 2004 Share Posted February 3, 2004 raster: strange you ma be correctthere is 04 on the screen but it sounds the same way when the 03 is on the screen (plays per frame). Is it possible that RMT only displays 04 but plays 03 ? No. If you set the instr. speed to 4 and switch song to 8tracks, it is really 4 tpf (times per frame) instrument speed in 8tracks song. In future version of RMT this 4 instrument speed will be rightly allowed also for 8tracks songs. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jaskier Posted February 3, 2004 Share Posted February 3, 2004 BTW - I still hope that I will find some horrible bug which is spending such much CPU power in RMT player routine. Please, do somebody have any "profiler" tool for Atari XE/XL programs??? Have you tried this? lda #4 sta $d01a ... .... lda #0 sta $d01a BTW, RMT player looks much faster than TMC player :wink: Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
raster/c.p.u. Posted February 3, 2004 Share Posted February 3, 2004 Have you tried this? lda #4 sta $d01a ... .... lda #0 sta $d01a Of course. There is in RMT always checkbox "Show rasterline meter of procesor usage" when export of XEX Atari executable msx is performed. That's why I know that RMT is spending quite much of CPU power. But I would like to know especially _where_ is CPU tramping in RMT routine. BTW, RMT player looks much faster than TMC player :wink: I disbelieve you! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MaPa Posted February 3, 2004 Share Posted February 3, 2004 Have you tried this? lda #4 sta $d01a ... .... lda #0 sta $d01a Of course. There is in RMT always checkbox "Show rasterline meter of procesor usage" when export of XEX Atari executable msx is performed. That's why I know that RMT is spending quite much of CPU power. But I would like to know especially _where_ is CPU tramping in RMT routine. So try multiple color changes during player rutine and see what part consumes the most CPU, and you can move these colorchanges in code to find the exact place. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
analmux Posted February 3, 2004 Share Posted February 3, 2004 For example if I will implement new analmux type of sound then the only way to hear it in TMC will be to turn off the screen Hey, why don't you turn off just DLIs then (except the player routine off course) ?? Is TMC supposed to be a graphics demo?? :wink: Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jaskier Posted February 3, 2004 Share Posted February 3, 2004 Hey, why don't you turn off just DLIs then (except the player routine off course) ?? Is TMC supposed to be a graphics demo?? :wink: The problem is that TMC 2.0 screen has 39 text lines. Without DLI it is 312 scan lines (too much to fit on PAL TV). When You turn DLI on it is only 234 scan lines. I've learned much since '96. Now I know that the look of program is as important as it's posibilities (see Windows ) Atari needs not only new music program but also new musicians. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Heaven/TQA Posted February 3, 2004 Share Posted February 3, 2004 sounds like fox' mentioned "hardware 40x40" screenmode? realtime $d405 changes rulez... do you have a screenshot for us? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
analmux Posted February 3, 2004 Share Posted February 3, 2004 Hey, why don't you turn off just DLIs then (except the player routine off course) ?? Is TMC supposed to be a graphics demo?? :wink: The problem is that TMC 2.0 screen has 39 text lines. Without DLI it is 312 scan lines (too much to fit on PAL TV). When You turn DLI on it is only 234 scan lines. I've learned much since '96. Now I know that the look of program is as important as it's posibilities (see Windows ) Atari needs not only new music program but also new musicians. You could (If memory serves) off course use graphics 8, but I'm interested in the $D405 fiddling. How do you do it?? ----- By the way, a question for the German guys (emkay, Heaven, Schmutzpuppe): Are any of you going to Dordrecht in the Netherlands coming sunday?? I'll visit the atari meeting. Maybe I have some complex softsynth routines then (which I'll post also on the forums off course). Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Heaven/TQA Posted February 3, 2004 Share Posted February 3, 2004 "... Piotr Fusik (Fox/Taquart) P.S. You may use the described VSCROL method to get other interesting modes, e.g. hardware-supported 40x40 text mode."... quote end. http://www.s-direktnet.de/homepages/k_nadj...dj/mode9++.html Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jaskier Posted February 4, 2004 Share Posted February 4, 2004 sounds like fox' mentioned "hardware 40x40" screenmode? realtime $d405 changes rulez... do you have a screenshot for us? Sure P.S. Analmux, I've seen that you are using wavelab to see the atari sound. Do you have also screenshots of sound with distortions? I'm very curious to see how the popular distortions 8 (drums) and C (bass) looks like. I'll explain how to make 8x6 text mode later. Now I have to get some sleep (it's 3:33 AM). Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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