Always wondered, and you'll know the answer

[Nukey Shay]

Is that from the disassembly? Cool Now the next question is why is the value $80 used instead of a lower value (which will take longer to roll over)?

[Bryan]

Is that from the disassembly?  Cool  Now the next question is why is the value $80 used instead of a lower value (which will take longer to roll over)?

 

Like I said... programmers like round numbers!!!!

 

-Bry

[Nukey Shay]

$70 is a round number. Better yet, $40...since it's half of $80...and still an exponential value of 2

[Bryan]

$70 is a round number.  Better yet, $40...since it's half of $80...and still an exponential value of 2

 

Yeah... but $70's ugly 01110000. No self-respecting programmer would use it. Too many "on" bits.

 

-Bry

[JDecuir]

The question has two parts:

- why have a time limit?

- why this number?

 

Having a time limit at all applies to some games but not others. E.g. Video Olympics will end on score = 21.

Some games end when the player uses up too many resources, or achieves some goal.

Some games (like Combat) could go on indefinitely, or until a certain amount of damage was taken.

 

This is a port of common Arcade (coin-op) logic.

These machines generated 60 frames/second. 8192 (2^13) frames is just over 136 seconds, or 2:16.

Some arcade game probably used a binary 13 bit counter, and the practice followed.

(The early arcade games were made with hardwired logic, not microprocessors.)

 

2:16 is long enough to have fun without being exhausting.

Sometimes there would be others waiting their turn to play.

Plus, the Arcade operator would want more quarters...

In the case of a home machine, it doesn't overtax a parent's patience.

'Mom, wait until I finish this game.'

 

Yours,

 

Joe Decuir

Atari 1975-1979

Amiga 1982-1984

[user42]

Wow that is an old thread!

 

On a side note, I would like extend a warm welcome to JDecuir. I wasted much of my youth playing Combat with my brother. Thanks alot, and welcome to AA.

Edited February 15, 2009 by user42

[2600Lives]

Oh, wow, Joe Decuir! Man, did Combat totally rule my life right after I got my 2600. Video Olympics also accounted for quite a few hours of my time back then! Welcome to AA! Always great to see one of the original team members from the old days show up here.

[SRGilbert]

Wow is there a "we're not worthy!" emoticon?

[+HammR25]

Now lets argue with him on why he's wrong.

 

Combat was definitely a pretty cool game.

[Godzilla]

maybe the value was initially arrived at during playtesting or as a result of feedback?

[accousticguitar]

Ha, I just hacked Combat and posted it in the 2600 hacks section under the name of "Dogfight." (I wonder if the original programmer would think that was a good thing or a bad thing. Anyway, it was fun to do.)

[JDecuir]

Wow that is an old thread!

 

On a side note, I would like extend a warm welcome to JDecuir. I wasted much of my youth playing Combat with my brother. Thanks alot, and welcome to AA.

 

Hello Wondering,

 

I am delighted that you had fun.

 

I have been married twice. Both women have thrown up their hands complaining that I was 'turning our sons into couch potatoes'. I had fun myself while working on these things. I would go to work thinking "it is a good thing my managers don't know how much I like this job, or they would charge me to show up to work."

 

I hope you also got outside to play in the sunshine...

 

yours,

 

Joe Decuir

[JDecuir]

Oh, wow, Joe Decuir! Man, did Combat totally rule my life right after I got my 2600. Video Olympics also accounted for quite a few hours of my time back then! Welcome to AA! Always great to see one of the original team members from the old days show up here.

 

Hi,

 

As I responded to the last guy, I am happy to have pleased you guys.

 

One of my great lifetime experiences: Black Friday, 1977, Sears store in Mountain View, California, about a mile from my apartment. (I was working on the sequel, the Atari 400/800 system at the time.) They had a system set up with Combat, nailed down for a live display. A cloud of kids surrounded it, waiting their turns. Each figured it out by watching the others play. They would fight when their parents tried to drag them off. I loved it...

 

cheers,

 

Joe Decuir

[JDecuir]

maybe the value was initially arrived at during playtesting or as a result of feedback?

Hi,

The value was developed by the coin-op designers.

They in turn listened to their customers.

The value is 2^13 TV frames (60 Hz).

In the original arcade machines, it was a hardware timer, not microprocessor firmware.

 

If the value is too short, it will annoy the end-customers (and miss their quarters).

If the value is too long, the operators (who want more quarters), the next people in line (who want to play) or the girlfriends (who are bored and want attention) will complain.

 

We just recycled their experience in the home systems.

We didn't realize (in the first generation) that we needed levels.

As Nolan told us: "the best games are easy to learn and difficult to master".

 

Joe Decuir

[graywest]

Mr. Decuir,

 

I know others have said the same thing, but some of my greatest memories of childhood involve sitting around the 2600 and playing Combat with my father and sister. Thanks!

 

Also, cool story about Black Friday, 1977. I love hearing about things like that.

[Godzilla]

maybe the value was initially arrived at during playtesting or as a result of feedback?

Hi,

The value was developed by the coin-op designers.

They in turn listened to their customers.

The value is 2^13 TV frames (60 Hz).

In the original arcade machines, it was a hardware timer, not microprocessor firmware.

 

If the value is too short, it will annoy the end-customers (and miss their quarters).

If the value is too long, the operators (who want more quarters), the next people in line (who want to play) or the girlfriends (who are bored and want attention) will complain.

 

We just recycled their experience in the home systems.

We didn't realize (in the first generation) that we needed levels.

As Nolan told us: "the best games are easy to learn and difficult to master".

 

Joe Decuir

 

I feel like the guy at church questioning god, except, this time, god answers Thank you for everything, as a child the new 'world inside my tv' that was brought about through games like combat allowed me to have an outlet for and helped me cope with my rage from having a mentally deranged male sperm donor, instead of killing someone

 

Imagine if the video games of today focused on giving you two straight minutes of great gameplay that was infinitely replayable...

[SRGilbert]

Joe, I just wanted to say "thanks" for Video Olympics.

[2600Lives]

Imagine if the video games of today focused on giving you two straight minutes of great gameplay that was infinitely replayable...

 

Some do. Guitar Hero comes to mind, actually. That's the first game in a LONG time that I can think of that adhered to the "hard to learn, difficult to master" mantra that used to drive the innovation in the industry. It takes everything great about the games of old, competing for high scores, small snippets of gameplay, etc. and modernizes it with great graphics, killer tunes, and adjustable difficulty.

 

Man, I bet you've got some great stories about the atmosphere and brainstorming parties back in the Nolan days, eh Mr. Decuir? Too bad today's industry is so suit and tie. The atmosphere that drove creativity and thinking outside the box will never again see the light of day, unfortunately, as it's just all about money these days.

[supercat]

Why did some games have a 2 minute 16 second limit? Probably an easy, obvious answer...please forgive the newbie.

 

And why does '27' seem a popular number of game variations?

[2600Lives]

Ok, I meant "easy to learn, hard to master". Guess my brain was on dumb at the moment.

[Nukey Shay]

It's a finished routine that works. Rather than reinvent the wheel for each game, they probably just plugged it into the code. Very similar/identical code is often used for the attract mode color cycling and/or palette selection too...not to mention routines that can only be done a handful of ways.

 

We do the same today with assembly modules (and macros).

[+Omegamatrix]

Bouncing missiles are still the coolest thing ever. I spent many hours playing Combat with my cousin when I was a kid. Thanks for the good memories Joe!!

 

 

 

Jeff

[Godzilla]

I agree on the 'smal snippet' part when it comes to guitar hero, but I take exception to the 'gameplay.' To me, GH is just dragons lair, simons, sez, etc in different clothing. I get nothing out of a game that is the same every time, though I do love GH/RB for the fantasy elements. We all want to be rock gods and it taps expertly into that So it's the first game that has made me like the 'hit the colored buttons, monkey (like pavlovs dog,))' gameplay. But it's not BECAUSE of the gameplay that I like it. Just my imho.

Edited February 17, 2009 by Godzilla

[maibock]

I too would like to add to the thanks for making Combat. Not only was it great fun for me growing up, but also for my kids, who still enjoy a game now and again. My 4 year old is now smitten with the game. Just a classic game..