PAL auctions

[wrldstrman]

First let me say I am not knocking pal games,if I lived in pal country I would be snatching up a lot of games.My vent is why do people keep insisting on using the ntsc rarity guide for pal games and worse they will list a rare game using the ntsc rarity rating and not check that they are pal games .I think this is very misleading.There is a place on ebay to put weather the games are pal or ntsc.Pay no attention to me just had to get that off my chest. Secondly if you bought a game such as bmxairmaster and the auction stated it was the rarity 9/10 game and when you got it found out it was pal and pal was not stated in the auction should the seller refund the money.

[sku_u]

I can't entirely fault the sellers for listing games the way they do. There aren't any good PAL rarity guides out there. In some cases the seller is trying to be deceptive in hopes of making more money, but in many other cases, the sellers simply do not realize that there is a difference between PAL and NTSC.

[YOK-dfa]

I agree that some sellers just do it on purpose, but some make a genuine mistake. If the region off rarity guide here wouldn't default to North America but to [All] i think most sellers would actually realise that PAL rarity != NTSC rarity.

 

So where do i sign up for the petition to have this changed?

 

Cheers,

Raymond

[highinfidelity]

Yes fellows, I remember buying an NTSC Video Olympics in the past from a (proved honest) german seller. When I told him it was NTSC, he was astonished and replied that he had no idea and that "he played the game for years and years on his TV and it always worked perfectly", which in fact is true as it works on my TV as well... That's all. Sometimes it's just hard to understand if you have a PAL or NTSC cart.

 

As for using NTSC rarity ratings, I volounteer again to cooperate on a PAL rarity guide. I'm sure Sku_u does as well. But this is not my website, of course... Thus, my personal and HUMBLE opinion is that the NTSC and PAL rarities should appear TOGETHER on every page. Maybe: a green number for the NTSC and a red number for PAL, or whatever... If one of the two ratings doesn't apply for the specific game / label variation (I mean: we're talking of a PAL-only release, or a canadian label variation, etc...), a great "X" of the appropriate color (red or green or whatsoever) should appear instead of the number.

 

Seeing two different rarity ratings together for the same game would lead every reader to get into the NTSC/PAL thing a little bit more before jumping to conclusions. Don't forget that "NTSC/North America" is the default of the AA search engine (or so it is on my computer, at least...) so people in a hurry don't even understand that there are PAL games behind the NTSC ones that appear at first glance...

[Spirantho]

As for using NTSC rarity ratings, I volounteer again to cooperate on a PAL rarity guide. I'm sure Sku_u does as well.

 

Count me in too.. I'd love to see PAL carts finally getting the equal rights with NTSC carts when it comes to rarity!

 

Seriously, I suppose all we can do without access to the AA database itself is to compile our own rarity lists. At least we can take that element out of the work Albert would have to do to get the lists up to date.

 

I like the idea of having PAL and NTSC columns, but in practise I'd rather it wasn't like that, as doing it that way would mean we couldn't have the other data (box/instructions/rom) for the PAL. Not easily, anyway.

[highinfidelity]

I get you, but let's make an example. Let's say "Asteroids". The picture version would appear with a green "1" (NTSC rarity) and a red "1" (PAL rarity) plus some avarage box-cart-etc scan (there must be BILLIONS of lesser variants, which today are not documented anyway, so I guess we can't pretend...)

 

The "red" label would appear with a green "X" (no NTSC version existing) and a red "5" (PAL rarity). Next, there will be the box-cart-etc scans of the PAL version in every lesser detail...

 

The opposite would happen with the "SEARS" versions... A green "2" (NTSC rarity) and a red "X" (no PAL)...

[Spirantho]

I think that'd be good in most cases, but what about the cases where the box is quite different between PAL and NTSC.

 

For instance, Cosmic Swarm, which is totally different in its usual NTSC form from its PAL form.

 

I think, however, you could show the PAL rarity as well as the NTSC rarity, _but_ there could be a toggle at the top of the page for NTSC/PAL.

 

In other words, if you view the NTSC listing, it would appear as it is now, except at the top would be a box labelled "default format" or something, with PAL and NTSC as options. It would default to NTSC, so it would show all the info for the NTSC format, and NTSC-only carts would be listed, leaving out PAL-only carts.

Then, a quick toggle to PAL, and the NTSC-only carts are omitted, while the PAL-only ones come in, and the chart now links to the PAL forms of the carts instead of the NTSC ones.

 

See what I mean? It's kinda hard to explain, but then us PAL people could default to PAL setting and switch when we need to, and NTSC people could leave it on NTSC if they choose.

[highinfidelity]

That's useful, but the layout would be not very different as it is now... Every ebay genius looking for an Obelix rating would see a good "10" and wouldn't care to switch to the PAL option...

 

If we'd like to avoid things like this (and it seems that we do), I guess that there should be some IMMEDIATE comparison between equivalent PAL and NTSC versions... Don't know, just proposing...

 

Then, there could be some other way to take in account for INCREDIBLY different PAL/NTSC boxes etc. Your example doesn't fit IMHO, because if Cosmic Swarm is SO different, it would appear on two different records (a non-NTSC and a non-PAL), like heppened with the asteroids red-label and SEARS-label above...

[Spirantho]

No, I'm suggesting we display the NTSC _and_ the PAL rarity, but the rest would all be format-specific.

In other words the grid would be identical to as it is now, but with both rarities listed. Usually, all the other members would link to NTSC pages, unless the format tab is set to PAL. The PAL rarity icon would be there right next to the NTSC one, and would describe whether or not there is a PAL section to look at.

 

This way it would still be obvious that there are two options, and it would be easy to switch between the two if you need more info.

[YOK-dfa]

I volunteer too

 

But wouldn't it be a better idea if we first focused on the actual rarity of games. If we get a simple *.txt file with all the games and their rarity then everyone can decide for himself how to use it in their webpage...

 

Cheers,

Raymond

[Spirantho]

Absolutely..... question is.. how?

 

We have some people (IBP for instance) with some data but that data is unreliable because it just deals with cart sold in the UK - many of which are NTSC (I know 'cos I think I've sold half of 'em! ).

 

I think the best start would be for the Euro-types to make a list of how they perceive rarities and for other PAL collectors to pass comment on the list. That way after a fair amount of discussion we should have a fair idea.

 

The problem will be getting people to agree on rarities, I think, especially as there's a lot of PAL stuff out there that's completely undocumented (when I got my Supervision "Missle 3000" yesterday from Germany I did a Google search for "Missle 3000" and bizzarely turned up nothing at all - a good example of how ill-documented carts like this are).

 

Maybe we need our own database temporarily which will let us PAL types fill in our data and submit our scans, and then merge our database with the AA one when Albert has the time to do so?

 

Is anyone here handy enough with PHP and MySql to knock up a database open to our submissions? Does any of us have a server that can take all the scans etc? I have a website but the webspace is too limited... However, I may be able to knock up a web-based database....

 

We keep talking about making a viewable PAL database, but none of us have got around to doing anything yet - maybe that should be a project to start now?

[highinfidelity]

No, I'm suggesting we display the NTSC _and_ the PAL rarity, but the rest would all be format-specific.

I didn't get you. That would be cool, even though time-demanding for being implemented. The simple twin-rarities is something that would be easier to get, maybe... Just for getting started, you know...

 

The same I would say for the latter two messages: if the PAL records had more visibility, we could start fixing the most blatant misunderstandings IMMEDIATELY. That would force people to understand that not every Obelix or similar is "unbelievably rare and $$$worthy".

 

Just for get going, those PAL games that are already in the database could be simply added to the twin-rarity list. Then, moving the duplicated PAL records to a common NTSC+PAL record and adding a list of well known games would be a rush.

 

Only at the end, the hard-core-PAL-collectors (= not me ) would board a discussion about the ultra-rare and almost-never-seen games. But that has to be the VERY LAST step, IMHO.

 

What I'm trying to say is that if we all could see that the PAL guide is taken in account as much as the NTSC, we would all be highly motivated. As things are so far, we would work on a .txt file, which maybe would never do it to the website. That would be very frustrating, thus no-one starts working on it...

[Spirantho]

Yes, I think we need a PAL database up ASAP (though not necessarily on AA itself) which we can merge later with AA.

 

Now, who's volunteering?

 

Like I said, I *may* be able to knock up a simple PHP database, though I currently know no PHP and very little MySQL....

I do have a permanent machine online via ADSL which could host a database, but it doesn't have a static IP address so would be of limited use...

[YOK-dfa]

The same I would say for the latter two messages: if the PAL records had more visibility, we could start fixing the most blatant misunderstandings IMMEDIATELY. That would force people to understand that not every Obelix or similar is "unbelievably rare and $$$worthy".

 

Read my post somewhere above. If the default region for the rarity list would be changed from 'North America' to ' [All regions]' this problem would be fixed. Takes only 5 seconds of coding (probably even less). No need for lenghty discussions about double rarity lists and the format they use

 

What I'm trying to say is that if we all could see that the PAL guide is taken in account as much as the NTSC, we would all be highly motivated. As things are so far, we would work on a .txt file, which maybe would never do it to the website. That's would be very frustrating, thus no-one starts working on it

 

Why would that be frustrating? I don't mind spending some time on getting a good rarity list, and if AtariAge doesn't want to use, fine. I'm sure a lot of people would be interested in a copy of the completed list. Lets focus on the content first before we start arguing about the design

 

 

 

To Spiranto:

 

My idea was to use IBP's list as a starting point (remove all the NTSC only stuff). Combine that info with have-list of PAL carts from as many collectors as possible and then make a guestimate for each cart. Based on the comments we get we could always change the rarity for a certain cart if necessary.

 

Cheers,

Raymond

[Spirantho]

Read my post somewhere above. If the default region for the rarity list would be changed from 'North America' to ' [All regions]' this problem would be fixed.

 

Unfortunately, no it wouldn't. 99% of the carts on the AA database which exist in PAL and NTSC forms only have entries for the NTSC ones, so you'd still get people saying the incorrect rarities.

This will work when - and only when - we have PAL entries for the carts that exist in both forms.

 

Why would that be frustrating? I don't mind spending some time on getting a good rarity list, and if AtariAge doesn't want to use, fine. I'm sure a lot of people would be interested in a copy of the completed list. Lets focus on the content first before we start arguing about the design

 

Part of the reason to have a PAL list would be to stop idiot eBayers thinking that their BOMB Great Escape is rarity 9.... the only way to fix this is to have it integrated in the AA database right in front of their faces, otherwise they won't find the PAL entry because they're usually too lazy or don't have the time to hunt for it (even when the info is there).

 

To Spiranto:

My idea was to use IBP's list as a starting point (remove all the NTSC only stuff). Combine that info with have-list of PAL carts from as many collectors as possible and then make a guestimate for each cart. Based on the comments we get we could always change the rarity for a certain cart if necessary.

 

I don't want to do IBP down at all but it's no indication of PAL carts, just of what carts were sold in the UK. AFAIK it doesn't even take into account Germany which is a massive area for PAL carts, let alone places like Italy which have their own obscurities.

 

We need to start from scratch on this one, I'm afraid....

[highinfidelity]

Alas, well said! If you take a look at the "Asteroids" example above, a PAL Asteroids owner would think that he has a rarity 5 in his hands.

 

Or, on the other hand, would assume that only red-label Asteroids were released in PAL format, thus he owns the famous and expensive "ultra-rare picture label PAL Asteroids!!!".

[IBP]

I don't want to do IBP down at all but it's no indication of PAL carts, just of what carts were sold in the UK. AFAIK it doesn't even take into account Germany which is a massive area for PAL carts, let alone places like Italy which have their own obscurities

 

Correct. It doesn't take into account anywhere outside the UK, although next week I am going to start collecting data on other european countries in parallel.

 

It's also not a PAL rarety guide, because many of the things on it could well be NTSC. All it shows is how easy a cart is to get hold of in the UK, nothing more, nothing less.

 

You can infer rareties from it, but it doesn't have the purety you need to create a rarety guide.

 

To create a true rarety guide you need every PAL collector to voice their opinion on rarety, which is necessarily subjective. To get this kind of thing to work you need a lot of people with a lot of opinions which converge on a single answer. That takes time and there's no quick fix.

 

If we're doing it we have to start from the beginning and work it through.

[Xevious]

Correct. It doesn't take into account anywhere outside the UK, although next week I am going to start collecting data on other european countries in parallel.

 

Australia too. I have sourced a lot of PAL stuff from there.

[deathtrappomegranate]

I would like to see more information on PAL rarity (and 8-bit, of course!).

 

Given the number of PAL titles, it's likely to be a very difficult task.

[liveinabin]

It's so rare to find 2600 games here (we were more of a computer nation, not consoles) that I wouldn't consider any game (even Combat) to be under a 3 / 4 in rarity. They're all rare

[sku_u]

I agree that some sellers just do it on purpose, but some make a genuine mistake. If the region off rarity guide here wouldn't default to North America but to [All] i think most sellers would actually realise that PAL rarity != NTSC rarity.  

 

So where do i sign up for the petition to have this changed?

 

Cheers,

Raymond

 

I agree 100%. It drives me nuts when I'm looking for a PAL or PAL-M title, but forget to change the setting to all.

 

It's also nice to see a comparison between PAL and NTSC side-by-side even when I'm looking up an NTSC cart.