The 16-Bit Wars

[Atari_Worshipper]

Another important factor, that we haven't even brushed up against yet is the Genesis's tendency to distort it's colors... This was a tendency that it inheritted from the mastersystem. The color that it has the most trouble with is red, but it struggles with all bright colors..a couple good ways to observe this is on any of the genesis sonic games with the floating yellow rings. Against a dull background (a grey or a black), the ring looks as it's intended. A smooth circle, but when you place it against a bright background (like 1-1 on sonic 1) then what was a smooth circle becomes a bunch of blocks. Or you could look at TMNT Tournament Fighters for the Genesis. At the character select screen, you have a bunch of greyscaled characters amid a black background, and their details and contours are immaculate, but once you select them, they turn to color and all the detail gets lost cause the character is reduced to blocks (I know, they're always blocks, but not blocks big enough to really perceive like they are in color). I think this negates easily any resolution advantages, except for with low color characters. And it's somthing that the super nintendo does not suffer with.

[Lemmi]

i enjoy the talk about the games more then what the hardware can do

[chrisbid]

http://www.vgmuseum.com/pics5/supermario.html

 

Super Mario World hack on the Genesis, other than graphic flashy things like mode 7 and a different sound setup, i dont see where the gameplay would be any different. there was never a whole lot going on in SMW on screen at one time (no more than a handful of enemies on screen at one time)

 

 

as for the Sega CD, i only include it since it didnt add much to the overall performance of the console, yes it added some (seldom used) graphic effects, but in essence almost all of the Sega CDs library couldve been produced on the Genesis if space on carts were not an issue. the only thing keeping final fight from a genesis cart was the redbook audio track on the CD.

[hex65000]

RE: Alien 3 Slowdown...

 

I question comparisons such as this for one reason: Code Optimization. It could be reasonable that Arena just did a crap-code job on that title. We _are_ talking about a movie franchise game so you know the standards are pretty low off the bat. Unless we start comparing things operation for operation your argument is pointless. If that could be established, _then_ i can start buying into the SNES cpu being better on a clock for clock basis. Making that harder is that one CPU may have or not have operations that the other CPU does not. Sure the task can be performed, but what is the optimal method? Another thing that does not help is that the SNES core is a closed platform. While the data sheet on the 68k is available.

 

Hex.

[ Remembers trying to read the Athlon datasheet... ugh! ]

[Clint Thompson]

http://www.vgmuseum.com/pics5/supermario.html

 

Super Mario World hack on the Genesis, other than graphic flashy things like mode 7 and a different sound setup, i dont see where the gameplay would be any different.  there was never a whole lot going on in SMW on screen at one time (no more than a handful of enemies on screen at one time)

 

 

as for the Sega CD, i only include it since it didnt add much to the overall performance of the console, yes it added some (seldom used) graphic effects, but in essence almost all of the Sega CDs library couldve been produced on the Genesis if space on carts were not an issue.  the only thing keeping final fight from a genesis cart was the redbook audio track on the CD.

 

Haha... cool... this is the sorta thing I would like to have a genny for to play this and see how it compares. This kind of stuff always interests me

[Jasoco]

Every system had it's strengths and weaknesses. To say one is better over the other is elitist bullshit. So, I prefer the SNES.

Well said!

 

If we were rich back then, perhaps I could have had both and enjoyed the games Sega had that Nintendon't. But I went with Nintendo for a few reasons. 1.) I had owned an NES. 2.) I liked Mario and the prospects of a new Mario game. 3.) Who the hell was Sonic?

 

Even today I prefer it over the Genesis. Sure, Sonic's fun for a while. But my heart will always be with the SNES and Mario.

[Atari_Worshipper]

to hex: my point wasn't that the super NES chip was faster (though I believe it is), my point was negating the argument that unless there was like 100 things on screen at once, that there was no slowdown on genesis games... alien 3 proves that wrong... that's all. But, there are more characters on the screen at once on the SNES version and they're more animated (though less detailed), that and the games native framerate (not accounting for slowdown) is pretty much neck in neck......

 

I am, however beginning to believe that JB may be right about the resolution... but the fact that I've so clearly noticed all these other differences between the systems and failed to notice that one implies not that I'm unobservant, but that when you weigh that advantage vs. the advantages that the super nes brought to the table, the hiked resolution doesn't make that much of a diff. That and when you figure in the way the genesis bludgeoned colors, then the added detail that the upped resolution brings is more than negated except for situations where you're looking at dull colors and especially greys, silver's and blacks... in those cases the hiked resolution is noticable and appreciable...otherwise, eh!

 

Figuring that the SNES seldomly used the 512x X resolution does give the Genesis the practical advantage, I'll admit, in resolution over the SNES, but not the technical.... and with the fudged colors, that more or less negates said benefit. AND, we make a big deal that the SNES couldn't handle the 512 in real game mode, well, perhaps, but who's to say the genesis's CPU could? You guys talk about how the SNES runs slower, well we're back to that being due to the SNES doing more... you have to ask yourself, would the genesis do better carrying the load that the SNES is carrying? Most likely worse, but we'll never know, really.....

 

 

 

 

 

I know that we should spend more time debating the games and less time debating the systems.. in fact, my intent was to make the games the main focus, but myself and a few others got carried away....

 

I'll tell you what..... I have another thread along these lines... this one is a debate, the other one is a poll... I'm wanting a total of 25 votes on the poll, either for the SNES or Genesis... after I've gotten the 25, I'll drop the matter of hardware as much as possible in still having a software debate.

 

Perhaps the reason I'm so passionate about this is because video games were the biggest part of my life from the years of about 8 to about 17. (or 1988-1997 approx) and through a good chunk of that time, the SNES/Genesis/NES were the main thing. That, and I've always been about the specifications, even when I was a little kid before I got that huge into games.....

 

Now, I don't get much time for games anymore working full time and going to college part time and being married. And most of my freetime goes to getting together w/ friends and family and doing stuff besides sitting in front of the game box. And when it's just me (or me and Jodee and she's doing other stuff around the house (my ACTUAL freetime ) more of it goes to the internet, or studying up on cars( I have a 1989 Lincoln Towncar in my garage that I'm planning to restore to showcar quality and after that, I'm gonna buy an old beat up late 70's Camaro and do the same thing, with heavy performance mods on both, especially on the Camaro )

 

Or if not those, then watching a movie on DVD or watching satellite, or reading books or a magizine (usually about cars or music or new school video games) or playing music (I'm getting my recording studio ready in the basement so that I can start recording my first solo album. All I need is the mixing boards (one dedicated to the drums, one for everything else), the microphones, and the various cables...I have two electric guitars, one accoustic, a twelve string accoustic, one bass, a keyboard, and a drumkit....I also have cakewalk and a spare computer to use it on.

 

Anyway, one of my fondest memories of middle school (and of video games) was the heated debates (more heated than these have become) over the superiority of the systems and being a nostalgic guy I like to get back there when I can....and I am self admittedly a man who can take a good thing too far sometimes, so after the poll closes, I'll move away from this... till then.............................

 

 

 

 

Hey, about that Gensis hack of SMW, is there anyway to burn the rom to an actual genesis cartridge? I mean, I KNOW there's a way, but does anybody here have the resource? That'd be awesome... so would Sonic on the SNES..... even if it did run slower, it'd still be so beautiful looking that I wouldn't care.... JB would though. :wink:

[JB]

to hex: my point wasn't that the super NES chip was faster (though I believe it is), my point was negating the argument that unless there was like 100 things on screen at once, that there was no slowdown on genesis games... alien 3 proves that wrong... that's all. But, there are more characters on the screen at once on the SNES version and they're more animated (though less detailed), that and the games native framerate (not accounting for slowdown) is pretty much neck in neck......

I neglected to factor just plain shoddy coding in to my argument.

You can bring ANYTHING to it's knees if you code it bad enough.

 

 

I am, however beginning to believe that JB may be right about the resolution... but the fact that I've so clearly noticed all these other differences between the systems and failed to notice that one implies not that I'm unobservant, but that when you weigh that advantage vs. the advantages that the super nes brought to the table, the hiked resolution doesn't make that much of a diff. That and when you figure in the way the genesis bludgeoned colors, then the added detail that the upped resolution brings is more than negated except for situations where you're looking at dull colors and especially greys, silver's and blacks... in those cases the hiked resolution is noticable and appreciable...otherwise, eh!

I'll have to do some comparisons, but I suspect that's standard aliasing issues and color bleeding.

 

The SNES wins on the aliasing front due to it's larger color pallete(a requirement for anti-aliasing). I've seen a few Genesis games that made an attempt at anti-aliasing, but it really winds up just looking bad(sort of like an over-compressed JPEG).

 

I've personally never had any problems with image sharpness, even with massive abuses like the cutscenes in Lunar: Eternal Blue.

Note that the SegaCD adds no real graphics hardware, just a math coprocessor optimized for 3D graphics calculations, so I consider this a valid example(though cart size restrictions serve to limit the detail present in a base Genesis game). I wouldn't use a 32x game as an example due to the signifigant extra graphics hardware present, but a FMV in a SegaCD game is just a bunch of tiles assembled in one of the Genesis' background layers.

 

 

Figuring that the SNES seldomly used the 512x X resolution does give the Genesis the practical advantage, I'll admit, in resolution over the SNES, but not the technical.... and with the fudged colors, that more or less negates said benefit. AND, we make a big deal that the SNES couldn't handle the 512 in real game mode, well, perhaps, but who's to say the genesis's CPU could?

Well, the Genesis GPU doesn't HAVE a 512*448 mode, so it's an academic issue.

It CAN, however, run in a 320*448 mode, which is used for the split-screen 2 player mode in Sonic 2, giving both players a full view of the level at the cost of severe deformities(since a full screen of graphics is displayed in a half-screen of television).

 

You guys talk about how the SNES runs slower, well we're back to that being due to the SNES doing more... you have to ask yourself, would the genesis do better carrying the load that the SNES is carrying? Most likely worse, but we'll never know, really.....

 

Which still doesn't change the SNES CPU being inadequate for the task with which it was burdened.

 

 

Can't recall if I mentioned that the SNES sound hardware was a lot less CPU-intensive than the Genesis setup, which required constant tending by the CPU to generate sound effects and keep music going.

The SNES sound hardware has a built-in processor that is used in almost all games.

So it's really a matter of if the CPU can manage the video hardware and game action.

 

 

 

 

I know that we should spend more time debating the games and less time debating the systems.. in fact, my intent was to make the games the main focus, but myself and a few others got carried away....  

Guilty as charged.

 

Perhaps the reason I'm so passionate about this is because video games were the biggest part of my life from the years of about 8 to about 17. (or 1988-1997 approx) and through a good chunk of that time, the SNES/Genesis/NES were the main thing. That, and I've always been about the specifications, even when I was a little kid before I got that huge into games.....

I was a Nintendo fanboy back then. The SNES was the only "real" system, and everything else was inadequate.

 

I have a lousy memory for dates, so I go by events.

I hopped from a Vectrex(bought on clearance when I was really too little to recall) and a 99/4a(same story) to an SNES(Christmas the year Zelda 3 came out. I was 11 if it came out in '92 like the copyright says), then to an Atari VCS, then NES.

 

THEN a Genesis got into the house, through the siren lure of the SegaCD and Lunar 2. Or, as I called it then, the only reason to own a Genesis. I was so cute with my militant fanboydom.

Of course, I was rational enough to tell anyone that asked my opinion that, in the end, which system was better really came down to "do you want Mario or Sonic". Over-simplified, of course, but it IS the software that makes or breaks a system.

 

 

Anyway, one of my fondest memories of middle school (and of video games) was the heated debates (more heated than these have become) over the superiority of the systems and being a nostalgic guy I like to get back there when I can....and I am self admittedly a man who can take a good thing too far sometimes, so after the poll closes, I'll move away from this... till then.............................

I never got many good debates. Just "Gameboy sucks, it's black and white!"

 

I DO tend to latch onto a subject and beat it into the ground, though.

I've had the specs down(more or less, I still have to look #s up sometimes) for a while, and no one to, ahem, "discuss" them with.

 

 

 

Hey, about that Gensis hack of SMW, is there anyway to burn the rom to an actual genesis cartridge? I mean, I KNOW there's a way, but does anybody here have the resource? That'd be awesome... so would Sonic on the SNES..... even if it did run slower, it'd still be so beautiful looking that I wouldn't care.... JB would though.   :wink:

I know you can make a flash cart. Saw the instructions linked on gamesx.com.

http://chn.roarvgm.com/mcc/mcc.html

There ya go. That's as close as you're gonna get without buying an EPROM burner and a cheapass game, desoldering the original ROM, and dropping your new EPROM in.

 

And there is a Sonic the Hedgehog for the SNES. It's a bad hack of Speedy Gonzales with no end. You run through one "level" that loops for eternity.

...

But hey, I'm not a Sonic fan. It doesn't feel "in control" to me most of the time. Nintendo had the better mascot game.

 

And now, we take it to the hardware thread.

[adams_ale]

While many of my friends had a Genesis I only had the snes. I enjoyed playing games on both systems, but the snes comes out tops in my books. I'm not a technical wiz, but when the same game came out on both systems the snes version almost always looked a lot better. The characters in genesis games were able to move quicker(ex. Sonic), but I don't see any other gaming areas where the Genesis was superior. My favorite genre of games is the rpg and I was content with the number of excellent rpgs on the snes. I know the Genesis had a couple great rpgs, but I never had a chance to play them. When the snes started innovations such as Mode-7 effects(Contra, Super Mario Kart, F-Zero) and the FX-chip(Star Fox, Stunt Race FX, two others?) I was totally convinced that the snes was the better buy. I would like to own a genesis and TG-16 one of these days and play through their libraries.

[JB]

My favorite genre of games is the rpg and I was content with the number of excellent rpgs on the snes.  

A genre it excelled at.

 

When the snes started innovations such as Mode-7 effects(Contra, Super Mario Kart, F-Zero)

Ummm... sprite-tile based 3D was nothing new.

Mode 7 was just the only way the SNES could do it effectively. And it was a severely limited form of it, too. Scaling and rotation of 1 background layer is impressive, but doesn't allow for much, especially when no other background layers are allowed while graphics mode 7 is in use.

 

The Genesis had those effects too. They just rendered them in software.

Advantage: you can still have a background layer for things like score(the Genesis had 2 background layers, compared to the SNES' 1-4).

Disadvantage: Takes more CPU time as well as a bit of programmer creativity.

 

 

and the FX-chip(Star Fox, Stunt Race FX, two others?)

Many others, actually.

Just a math coprocessor, nothing special.

 

Well, aside from the fact that the SNES needed them for more than rendering polygon graphics in software. See Doom and Yoshi's Island(SuperFX), Megaman X2 and X3(C4), Super Mario RPG(SA-1), or Super Mario Kart and Pilot Wings(DSP-1). And that's just well-known coprocessor games.

The number of SNES games with coprocessors is really staggering once you find out about them.

 

I was totally convinced that the snes was the better buy.  

I wanted Zelda. Hence, SNES.

Then I went on my action-adventure/RPG kick, stopping briefly for Gradius 3, Megaman whatever, and the other odd action game.

 

Genesis didn't really get any attention from me untill recently.

I had it for a long time before I started actually playing it.

But it's impressed me.

[DeV0]

Ok, after spending several hours today playing the MD and the snes (Both with backup units) I have come to the conclusion that i definately much prefer the snes line up of titles. And for the 1st time I bothered to notice the colour pallettes for both, the snes wins for me on that note as well.

 

But,, I have to say the sega cd title Eternal champions is fricken brill! Not that this can compare to any snes cart, it is an excellent reason to get a sega cd.

 

Anyone play VF2 on the md? I dont think either the snes or th md could handle this one.

[adams_ale]

Where there any Genesis games which excelled over the snes version of the same game? What are the reasons for getting a Genesis? I was amazed by Altered Beast when it first came out on the Genesis(think that was the name ) and I loved playing Sonic, but I haven't played any other games that were only on the Genesis. I've never played a Genesis rpg, but I would like to one of these days.

[Atari_Worshipper]

VF2 on the Genesis (MD) was manageable only because it was converted from a 3D polygon based fighter to a 2d sprite based fighter (think Street Fighter 2) but since I haven't played it for more than just a few minutes, I can't speak to whether those changes completely bastardized the game, or whether it still plays more or less the same...

 

Were there any games that were better on the Genesis?

 

Well, there are two types of multiplatform games: 1) the kind where they two versions are as absolutely identical as possible. (I.e. Earthworm Jim series, Zombies Ate My Neighbors, Boogerman, Mortal Kombat series, Street Fighter series) and 2) the kind where they are not the same game at all, but just happen to have the same name. (I.e. Aladin, Alien 3, TMNT Tournament Fighters, etc.)

 

Of the second catagory, it's not easy to say that either the Super NES or the Genesis really stomped the other in this catagory, cause it's almost entirely a matter of opinion. So we'll leave that one alone.

 

As far as the first catagory, well that all depends on the limitations of the hardware.... so, except for sports titles, and JB says shooters (which I hardly ever play so I'll have to do some research before I can say whether or not I agree) they almost always come out tops for SNES... the only times they don't top out for SNES is when the Genesis version throws in something that the SNES Version doesn't (I.e. an extra level or two on Earthworm Jim 1, or blood in MK 1, or extra speed stars in the street figher sereis, though except for EWJ, of these despite those things, I still prefer the SNES versions, personally)

 

So why do I say I prefer the Gensis software if I maintain that common parallel games are better on SNES and common non parallel games are more or less equal? Because of the system exclusive games. There were some real gems on the SNES, no doubt, but the higher quantity (and higher precentage) of stellar system exclusive games goes to the Genesis..

 

 

Yeah, I never meant to give the impression that I've got a beef w/ the genny... no, Genny and I get along like peas and carrots.

[JB]

Were there any games that were better on the Genesis?

 

Well, there are two types of multiplatform games: 1) the kind where they two versions are as absolutely identical as possible. (I.e. Earthworm Jim series, Zombies Ate My Neighbors, Boogerman, Mortal Kombat series, Street Fighter series) and 2) the kind where they are not the same game at all, but just happen to have the same name. (I.e. Aladin, Alien 3, TMNT Tournament Fighters, etc.)

 

Of the second catagory, it's not easy to say that either the Super NES or the Genesis really stomped the other in this catagory, cause it's almost entirely a matter of opinion. So we'll leave that one alone.

That's the kind I prefer, because it usually means that the game was custom-tweaked for whatever system it winds up on instead of designed for the lowest common denominator and then given mild AV tweaks for te diffrent platforms(not specific to the debate at hand, this goes for every multi-platform game ever).

 

 

As far as the first catagory, well that all depends on the limitations of the hardware.... so, except for sports titles, and JB says shooters (which I hardly ever play so I'll have to do some research before I can say whether or not I agree) they almost always come out tops for SNES... the only times they don't top out for SNES is when the Genesis version throws in something that the SNES Version doesn't (I.e. an extra level or two on Earthworm Jim 1, or blood in MK 1, or extra speed stars in the street figher sereis, though except for EWJ, of these despite those things, I still prefer the SNES versions, personally)

I don't know of any multi-platform shotoers right off. They tended to be exclusive to one system or the other. Usually the Genesis, for whatever reason, though the SNES scored a few(most rather early in it's life).

 

And some ported games feel kind of funny.

Pitfall: The Mayan Adventure, for example. The controls on the SNES version feel odd, and remapping options are severely limited.

I suspect it was designed around the lowest common denominator control-wise(Genesis, with it's 3-button pad) and the ports did little to change that. Why bother when the SNES was the only target with a signifigantly diffrent controller? Jaguar was Genesis with a phone pad, and the 32x and SegaCD, well, WERE Genesis.

[Atari_Worshipper]

(response to his reply from the thead: "A poll......."

 

actually bratwurst, while I will not try to dissuade you from Genesis as the overall better system (I'll disagree, but I want honest opinions, besides, the Genesis is losing in the poll anyway, it needs votes), I will say that the SNES was actually capable of more simultaneous sprites and larger, more flexible sprites.. (I only put this cause you mentioned sprites) and in my humble (but majority backed I'm sure) opinion, Contra 3, The Alien Wars on the SNES smoked Hard Corps, just like I think a lot of people would agree that Super Castlevania IV on the SNES kicked the bootie-hole out of Bloodlines.. (the Rotating Dungeon, 4-2, in CV 4 is still totally impressive even in the days of X-Box, and absolutely jaw dropping in it's own day... I called people over, just to see it back then! I don't think the Genesis could've done that really. Even it's piped in mode 7 wasn't THAT good)

 

hey, there's a good idea for a software related SNES/SG debate... the contras versus the castlevanias!

[chrisbid]

contra III had slowdown issues, as did gradius III, and UN squadron, and Super R Type, and the abysmal Thunder Spirits

[Atari_Worshipper]

contra 3 wasn't so bad on slowdown, but I haven't played gradius 3 and thus can't defend it... you may be right.

[Bratwurst]

Most large 'sprites' on the SNES tend to be background layers that are then manipulated with mode 7 rotation, scaling and other effects, however what I meant is that when you look at games like Super Metroid (with that giant Kraid) or something like Sky Blazer those large graphics are handled in a relatively sluggish fashion. Not necessarily incurring slowdown, but the Genesis redraws frames faster and more smoothly. By frames I imply swapping a single image with the subsequent image in an animation.

 

An example of this would be to look at SNES Gradius 3 which is notorious for slowdown around level 2 and up with a medley of small and mid-sized characters that fill the screen. Bio Hazard Battle on the Genesis has a comparitive number of characters on screen at any given moment but those larger, segmented enemies are also animated with elaborate, flourishing motions (gills that flutter, etc).

 

Man, I am such a nerd.

 

EDIT: I just thought of an analogy that might be appropriate. The SNES is capable of carrying a large load of rocks on its backside and reaching point A to point B at a gentle pace, but the Genesis will be zipping back and forth carrying handfuls with each trip to match the end result.

 

In the end I'm not out to convince anyone than maybe just give people reason to respect the Genny a little more.

[JB]

An example of this would be to look at SNES Gradius 3 which is notorious for slowdown around level 2 and up with a medley of small and mid-sized characters that fill the screen. Bio Hazard Battle on the Genesis has a comparitive number of characters on screen at any given moment but those larger, segmented enemies are also animated with elaborate, flourishing motions (gills that flutter, etc).

I actually had Gradius 3 slow down on me a couple times just from the strenuous task of scrolling the screen(in the high-speed tube level, whichever one that was).

 

 

 

And could we please quit referring to ALL 2D scaling and rotation effects as mode 7 graphics? Mode 7 is only applicable to SNES games operating with in a very specific set of constraints.

 

Most "mode 7 effects" CAN'T be done in SNES graphics mode 7, which provides for the scaling and rotation of ONE background plane, provided there are NO other backgrounds in the scanlines drawn in graphics mode 7(now you know why the status bar in Mario World disappears when you fight King Koopa, and why most of the koopa battles were in really BORING "rooms"). That means that the scaling/rotation of one object of arbitrary size on a flat featureless background is a mode 7 effect. Add something as simple as a starfield behind this object and it ceases to be a mode 7 effect.

[Jasoco]

Most "mode 7 effects" CAN'T be done in SNES graphics mode 7, which provides for the scaling and rotation of ONE background plane, provided there are NO other backgrounds in the scanlines drawn in graphics mode 7(now you know why the status bar in Mario World disappears when you fight King Koopa, and why most of the koopa battles were in really BORING "rooms"). That means that the scaling/rotation  of one object of arbitrary size on a flat featureless background is a mode 7 effect. Add something as simple as a starfield behind this object and it ceases to be a mode 7 effect.

Well said!

 

I always DID wonder why in SMW, Bowser's battle was on a screen with no status at all. But I figured it was just because, well, it's the last battle. Status doesn't matter.

[Duke 4ever]

Damn, that is a tough one. Im going to have to go with SNES because they had the most highest calibur games at the time. The music and sound was cleaner as well.

[Jasoco]

For me, I like color. And the SNES has that. Color. The games may not be able to go as fast, but they're colorful.

 

Not to say Genesis games weren't also colorful, just that they weren't as colorful. And couldn't do the same stuff.

[Atari_Worshipper]

put that in the poll if you haven't already, jasoco

[sigma]

I still stick with what I said on the first page.

[Atariboy]

One good way to compare between the systems might be with Desert/Jungle/Urban Strike. All three games appeared on each console, and there could be a lot going on on one screen at one time.

 

I can't compare though, I own Desert Strike for the Genesis and the other two on the SuperNes. Urban Strike suffers from slow down a lot on the SuperNes, it would be interesting to check it out on the Genesis.