Schmutzpuppe Posted August 22, 2004 Share Posted August 22, 2004 Hi, emkay ask me to put his song approach in a demo of my upcoming game to show that it is possible to use rmt tunes in game (even if I am sure that there is at least one game that already use rmt). The game itself is far away from release stage and very unbalanced (easy). Currently you can only play once without reload and it only runs in PAL mode. You just need to use the trigger to control the chopper. Have fun. newsf.zip Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TMR Posted August 22, 2004 Share Posted August 22, 2004 Reaxion has been using RMT tunes since about two months into coding... it's technically finished but being released through Cronosoft on tape. If anyone here ever answers my question about how to save it to tape, that is...! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TMR Posted August 22, 2004 Share Posted August 22, 2004 Oh, nearly forgot; the game looks interesting but the music... sorry, not even vaguely keen. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pps Posted August 22, 2004 Share Posted August 22, 2004 Reaxion has been using RMT tunes since about two months into coding... it's technically finished but being released through Cronosoft on tape. If anyone here ever answers my question about how to save it to tape, that is...! Hi TMR, simply load DOS, then choose the copy command and copy your file from D: to C: ATARI cassetes doesn´t use a filename like on C64, so simply copy D:FILE.EXE,C: Hope to get a copy of Reaxion soon :-) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
_Fandal_ Posted August 22, 2004 Share Posted August 22, 2004 Hi, emkay ask me to put his song approach in a demo of my upcoming game to show that it is possible to use rmt tunes in game (even if I am sure that there is at least one game that already use rmt). The game itself is far away from release stage and very unbalanced (easy). Currently you can only play once without reload and it only runs in PAL mode. You just need to use the trigger to control the chopper. Have fun. Looks very promising! Keep up the good work! F. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
emkay Posted August 22, 2004 Share Posted August 22, 2004 Reaxion has been using RMT tunes since about two months into coding... That doesn't hit the spot. Reaxion is a "fixed graphics" game and no one did see it until today (exept of some beta testers?). Some people did ask , if RMT is usable within games... the demo is giving the answer. This Demo uses scrolling with real parallax which is a "bit more" cpu hungry than simply moving a sprite ... So the demo does show, that immense graphics movement plus full RMT usage easily can work together even when using different POKEY settings and soundings. And that is the term of consensus... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TMR Posted August 22, 2004 Share Posted August 22, 2004 So the demo does show, that immense graphics movement plus full RMT usage easily can work together even when using different POKEY settings and soundings. And that is the term of consensus... Immense? Reaxion has to cache off a chunk of the background and mask itself in over two fonts and then write to the two hardware overlays that generate the third colour, so it's processing (not just moving) a touch under 300 bytes per frame. The attached scroller does 40 by 20 chars and requires less than eight rasterlines, hardly immense amounts of CPU grunt in comparison. test.zip Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
emkay Posted August 22, 2004 Share Posted August 22, 2004 ... To your 2h work...... What I see by this is an Intro with a simple scroller that can be done in turbo basic, and some flickering scanlines on the bottom of the graphics. Then there is a (musically good) tune played that is a known from SID with cutted deep notes through all... Where is the parallax (exept of the tune ) ? Where are the gaming goodies? Where is the extraordinary sounding? You see the difference? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Schmutzpuppe Posted August 22, 2004 Author Share Posted August 22, 2004 The attached scroller does 40 by 20 chars and requires less than eight rasterlines, hardly immense amounts of CPU grunt in comparison. Well, you can’t really compare it, add a background with different scrollspeed and also attend to scroll the background in the chars that are just partly including background than count again. But anyway your scroller looks really good; did you do the gfx yourself? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TMR Posted August 22, 2004 Share Posted August 22, 2004 Well, you can’t really compare it, add a background with different scrollspeed and also attend to scroll the background in the chars that are just partly including background than count again. To be honest, i'd assumed that you wouldn't bother doing that, looking quite a bit closer now i can see it's overlaid but since it's moving so fast i couldn't actually see the point of doing it that way! i'd just draw as close to the edges as possible and use four characters roll back since it'd produce the same effect in a very small amount of time and leaves more free for other jobs. But either way, my apologies to you for not noticing and for taking pops like that, but i'm just totally sick of emkay's belittling anything he's not involved with in some way; somehow he's an expert even though he's never seen Reaxion running, probably hasn't even seen the latest screenshots and doesn't know how much work is being done "simply moving a sprite" (it's actually closer to 330 bytes per frame now i think about it) and, because it's not released yet because we're putting it out through Cronosoft first, it somehow doesn't "count" as an example of RMT in a game. It's sickening watching him taking potshots at other people's work without knowing what's going on, that's why i had him on ignore for ages and now i have no idea why i took him off... It's almost as bad as listening to his music, i don't envy you that during the development cycle. But anyway your scroller looks really good; did you do the gfx yourself? Yeah, they're from an unfinished C64 shoot-em-up called Co-Axis 2189 that i've had on the back burner for a few years now - i just shipped the font and map data over and taught the A8 to read the latter. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Schmutzpuppe Posted August 22, 2004 Author Share Posted August 22, 2004 i'd just draw as close to the edges as possible and use four characters roll back since it'd produce the same effect in a very small amount of time and leaves more free for other jobs.? That makes sense if you need cpu time for more important things and if you do it clever (as you described) the effect should be nearly the same. But either way, my apologies to you for not noticing. No problem, I fear the background color is a bit too dark on some screens so maybe it’s sometimes hard to notice Yeah, they're from an unfinished C64 shoot-em-up called Co-Axis 2189 that i've had on the back burner for a few years now - i just shipped the font and map data over and taught the A8 to read the latter. Looks really good, making gfx always took me days to do (and most of the time with moderate result). Will you finish Co-Axis or is it cancelled? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
emkay Posted August 22, 2004 Share Posted August 22, 2004 To be honest, i'd assumed that you wouldn't bother doing that, looking quite a bit closer now i can see it's overlaid but since it's moving so fast i couldn't actually see the point of doing it that way! emkay's belittling anything he's not involved with in some way; somehow he's an expert even though he's never seen Reaxion running, probably hasn't even seen the latest screenshots and doesn't know how much work is being done Please don't try to implement your insufficienties to me. Ofcourse I know Reaxion off the C64 and the techniques you mentioned in the past.... and I know the cababilities of the A8. "simply moving a sprite" (it's actually closer to 330 bytes per frame now i think about it) and, because it's not released yet because we're putting it out through Cronosoft first, it somehow doesn't "count" as an example of RMT in a game. Reaxion mainly moves the cursor and sets the time and score. The tiles are changed once after pressing the fire button. So the only movement that has to be done smoothly is the cursor movement. If it DOES move 330 bytes every frame for graphics, you must have done something wrong. The scroll engine has a fixed count of bytes to move and there is no time saving when the scrolling always has to be smooth. If in a game like Reaxion isn't enough time inside one frame, no one will blame the coder when waiting for another frame... It's even your fault to mention a game for proofing RMT & a Game-engine, when not even releasing a demo or some informations about it. It's sickening watching him taking potshots at other people's work without knowing what's going on, that's why i had him on ignore for ages and now i have no idea why i took him off... Please put back on your blinders ... thanks. It's almost as bad as listening to his music, Yes... I know, everything outside C64-style is sickening ... right? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sack-c0s Posted August 22, 2004 Share Posted August 22, 2004 what is said is right emkay - you are criticising something you've neither seen, nor played. that 'just moving a cursor' doesn't take an entire frame by any mean - but by the same token it's not as trivial as it seems because allowances have to be made in order to push your beloved Atari Hardware in order to get the colour usage up to make things presentable. These things take effort and raster time. If you understood the situation as well as you claim to you would realise that. I mean I I don't like all of your music - but occasionally you do something that I do think is a great idea but if you're going to belittle everyone elses ideas, opinions and *actual working productions* (of which I don't see much in the way of code coming from you these days) then it's going to drown that out as background noise. There's some absolutely awesome Atari (8 and 16-bit) music out there - some of the ZX spectrum/amstrad stuff isn't bad either. we're not C64 elitists - there's bad music on all platforms and christ knows I've been responsible for some of it And to reiterate - Reaxion *will* be released as soon as we get some guidance on how to make a tape master that loads and autostarts as a professionally produced game should. This is the only thing holding up release at the moment. If someone wants to give us a shout with the answer that'd be great (I've managed to code and master the entire ZX spectrum version in the time this has taken to sort out) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Heaven/TQA Posted August 22, 2004 Share Posted August 22, 2004 oh... just back from 5 days of gaming madness at the GC and here is stupid discussion going on again... RMT can be used in games as well same with TMC, CMC or MPT or whatever... where is the f... problem??? reaxion is using it as well... but the RMT player does not use so much CPU time that is is almost unusable except for title screens... schmutzpuppes game... well... and what is a "real parallax" scroller??? a real parallaxer is "not just ROL" backgrount fonts and maybe masking or coping it into more foreground tiles... but instead a complete independent background... so "So the demo does show, that immense graphics movement plus full RMT usage easily can work together even when using different POKEY settings and soundings. And that is the term of consensus..." is absolutly nonsense imho... "immense graphics movement"... (no offense here but...) some missles move...and some ROLs thats all... i would not discribe this as IMmENSE.... and now back to sleep... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Heaven/TQA Posted August 22, 2004 Share Posted August 22, 2004 TMR...your scroller seems to use the "game boy" method? as the LMS' are 80 bytes lines... have you tried analmux' type of scrolling? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
emkay Posted August 23, 2004 Share Posted August 23, 2004 what is said is right emkay - you are criticising something you've neither seen, nor played. See the reason... This Thread is about to show RMT working in a Game-Engine. Then a Guy comes along saying "hey my is doing so as well... but I am hiding it " ??? Now, let's do all the same and no ones question will ever be answered These things take effort and raster time. If you understood the situation as well as you claim to you would realise that. Normally I would have said...:. let's see, how the game is adapted to the A8 . But, actually, I don't want to see it anymore because I think I know what has been done. I mean I I don't like all of your music - but occasionally you do something that I do think is a great idea but if you're going to belittle everyone elses ideas, opinions and *actual working productions* Contrary, I would like your music when the "Pokey" level was way better. And I am NOT belittling everyone elses ideas. I am belittleling the always re-done old Ideas. While the graphics did a BIG step forward on the A8, no one recognized the "half" working POKEY emulation inside the RMT, and while the full SAP archive works fine on it... My doing in "Music" and "Sound" with the RMT shall help to analyze the bugs and perhaps optimizing RMT (or other Trackers) for a real full POKEY support. (of which I don't see much in the way of code coming from you these days) then it's going to drown that out as background noise. This is like to say "You cannot have a woman for a family, because you are no woman"... Further this is a problem of the observer and not of the observed. It's even easier for the observer to get the part he needs to put another person down, instead of what really is. So mostly I can read in this forum, that "my music" is sounding bad. But there is no one saying" hey Emkay, that's the way...I'll try to combine this with my experiences". There's some absolutely awesome Atari (8 and 16-bit) music out there Ofcourse it is.... On the ST, because there were professional musicians working with.. On the A8.... some... as you said. Mainly tunes that are not to be used inside a game (digi-drums, softsynth)... and some songs from some great artists from eastern europe, too. Yeah... and some nice Game-tunes were done with some nice pokey sounding by Whittaker, Munns, Gilmore. And to reiterate - Reaxion *will* be released as soon as we get some guidance on how to make a tape master that loads and autostarts as a professionally produced game should. So what is the cause? Do you Guys think to sell this game? On Tape? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
emkay Posted August 23, 2004 Share Posted August 23, 2004 oh... just back from 5 days of gaming madness at the GC and here is stupid discussion going on again... RMT can be used in games as well same with TMC, CMC or MPT or whatever... where is the f... problem??? Heaven... you should read several Threads before posting Some people did ask if this is possible. This Thread is the answer. schmutzpuppes game... well... and what is a "real parallax" scroller??? a real parallaxer is "not just ROL" backgrount fonts and maybe masking or coping it into more foreground tiles... but instead a complete independent background... 1. I know some guy that offered a different speed of scrolling per scanline as parallax scrolling. 2. This demo doesn't only roll some caracters 3. It's only a question of the charset-alignment, how independent the parallax is. "So the demo does show, that immense graphics movement plus full RMT usage easily can work together even when using different POKEY settings and soundings. And that is the term of consensus..." is absolutly nonsense imho... "immense graphics movement"... (no offense here but...) some missles move...and some ROLs thats all... i would not discribe this as IMmENSE.... and now back to sleep... Were you still awaken when you wrote this? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TMR Posted August 23, 2004 Share Posted August 23, 2004 Looks really good, making gfx always took me days to do (and most of the time with moderate result).Will you finish Co-Axis or is it cancelled? At the moment it's on hold because i've run out of ideas for the landscapes, Co-Axis 2189 is a "remix" of my first game Co-Axis and the general plan was to redo it as the original could have been if i'd been a better coder and artist at the time what i was doing the first time. That means that the levels have to remix the originals and, so far, only half the level styles are done. Eventually i'll have one of those moments where i just have to finish it and i'll come up with the rest but don't hold your breath... The A8 game based on that scroll engine and a few other ideas might arrive a bit sooner now Reaxion is out of the way. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TMR Posted August 23, 2004 Share Posted August 23, 2004 TMR...your scroller seems to use the "game boy" method? as the LMS' are 80 bytes lines... have you tried analmux' type of scrolling? i wrote the code for that before he explained it, based on my NES routines. The "flicker" emkay pointed out is actually an indication of used raster time - so much for the Atari expert, eh? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TMR Posted August 23, 2004 Share Posted August 23, 2004 So the only movement that has to be done smoothly is the cursor movement. If it DOES move 330 bytes every frame for graphics, you must have done something wrong. Actually, i got that a little wrong; the drone moves over a 4x4 character area (it's 3x3 characters but needs the extra character on each axis to move smoothly) so that's 16 characters that need to be written to the screen RAM for a start. Next, there are two copies of the data under the drone made into two fonts (there's a split halfway down the screen, i could have made concessions but i didn't like how it looked) so that's 16 chars multiplied by 8 bytes multiplied by 2; 256 bytes in total. Then three quarters of both work spaces are masked and the drone position copied in so that's another block of 192 transactions. Next, the player overlay (note how many colours the drone has and how many are shared) is written in so that's two players at 20 bytes high a piece so 40 bytes in total and if i were being pedantic i'd say it needed cleaning except i cheated to speed things up and it doesn't. 16 bytes (screen RAM write) 256 bytes (background conversion) 192 bytes (mask and copy, bit generous but they are combined) 40 bytes (player overlays) 504 bytes total In order to get this thing looking the way i wanted and push the envelope like you kept whining that people weren't doing, i couldn't use a normal routine - you may feel you can do better, supply code or it's not worth saying. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TMR Posted August 23, 2004 Share Posted August 23, 2004 So what is the cause? Do you Guys think to sell this game? On Tape? www.cronosoft.co.uk - yes. That's why it's complete but hasn't been released yet. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Schmutzpuppe Posted August 23, 2004 Author Share Posted August 23, 2004 Wish I never opened this thread Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
analmux Posted August 23, 2004 Share Posted August 23, 2004 See the reason... This Thread is about to show RMT working in a Game-Engine. Then a Guy comes along saying "hey my is doing so as well... but I am hiding it " ??? Yeah, I'm coding a game right now with triple parallax scrolling (3 layers), huge sprites, PM underlays and RMT-like music, but it will take me two years to release it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
emkay Posted August 23, 2004 Share Posted August 23, 2004 The "flicker" emkay pointed out is actually an indication of used raster time - so much for the Atari expert, eh? I always thought I am having problems with the english language... The scroller you did is a very cheap one, and as I mentioned, even easy fast to be done in Turbo Basic if someone would try. You got it right, that a non-coder doesn't recognize the flickering scanlines as a speed indicator, so I told you what I (or every non-coder) see by this. And the lacking parallax isn't excused, because I wrote about it in the message before. BTW: It's the first parallax of it's type on the A8 inside a game, because it uses ANTIC E & a better parallax than simple rolling a character... Combined with a nice gameplay plus a finally good tune it is part of the new generation in software for the A8. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
emkay Posted August 23, 2004 Share Posted August 23, 2004 16 bytes (screen RAM write) 256 bytes (background conversion) 192 bytes (mask and copy, bit generous but they are combined) 40 bytes (player overlays) 504 bytes total Actually, this explains it as I already thought of. But those bytes don't have to be moved every frame, because the cursor isn't moving everytime! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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