Golden Oldy game idea (2000/3D series type game)LUNERLANDER

[Gunstar]

Ok, I've started a new thread with this idea at JustClaws suggestion, so here is my inital post copied to here:

 

You know what I'd REALLY like to see though? I'd like to see a GOLDEN OLDY brought to the Jaguar in spectacular 3D; LUNAR LANDER. I LOVED this game back in the day and I think it would be a FANTASTIC and SIMPLE game to bring to glorious 3D on the Jaguar! It could be another in the great line of 2000/3D games for the Jag with the original vector graphic version, a 2D graphically updated "plus" version and then the 2000/3D version. Anyone? Thoughts?

 

The Jaguar could EASILY handle this type of game, even in 3D polygons, flat, shaded and/or textured to some extent, the lunar surface could be made with any number of types of landscaping engines, e.g.-polygon (HoverStrike/aircars/cybermorph/battlemorph/Misslecommand), height mapped (also refered to as voxel in some instances, but there are other techiniques to I believe[from what I've read] PhaseZero, other) or whatever, but I'd love to see a real 3D type version for the 2000/3D mode with a polygonal lander, etc. I think this would be a great Jaguar game becuase it's simple math for 2D and 3D and is a classicly AWSOME game that takes some skill and LOTS of replayability with different terrain/difficulty/environmental effects. I'm pretty sure that this could be a good project for a begining or advanced Jaguar programmer. I'd look into it myself, and may, if no one else does, but I'm sure there are others here who programming skills are FAR ahead of mine and could get a game like this out much quicker than I. If it's left up to me, it'll be like a decade...

[Serblander]

Gauntlet 2000

 

We already have the 4-P Team Tap available, now we just need the game! But i would love to see the newer version be simultaneous 4-P split screen - just like 4-P Halo on one console!

 

Could the Jag actually handle something like that? 4-Player split screen i mean.

[walter_J64bit]

Oldschool games like Pac-Man, Zaxxon, Phoenix and like I've said before Donkey Kong all clones they don't have to be an exact to the arcades. I don't want any one to brake any copyright laws!

 

Oh some Baseball games!

[walter_J64bit]

look here at I,robot from Atrai it made was back in 1984 this is 3D, I'm thinking if some one looks into this old style programming this can work for the Jag!

http://mywebpages.comcast.net/lordfrito/ir...obot/index.html

[Starcat]

Hi Gunstar !

 

I think the main problem with this idea and many other is, that there are too few Jag coders out there and most of them have their own projects already, and no time to work on something new.

I think if you want to have such a game on the Jag, you will have to do it youself afterall or find somebody new who is willing to do it.

But even if it takes an decade as you said, better a decade than never.

 

Regards, Lars.

[justclaws]

Hello,

 

You know what I'd REALLY like to see though? I'd like to see a GOLDEN OLDY brought to the Jaguar in spectacular 3D; LUNAR LANDER. I LOVED this game back in the day and I think it would be a FANTASTIC and SIMPLE game to bring to glorious 3D on the Jaguar! It could be another in the great line of 2000/3D games for the Jag with the original vector graphic version, a 2D graphically updated "plus" version and then the 2000/3D version. Anyone? Thoughts?

I agree it would be a great first 3D project - I might try later!

How about a quick and dirty 2D bitmap version to go on with?

Of course some nice graphics and some design ideas will help!

 

I think this would be a great Jaguar game becuase it's simple math for 2D and 3D and is a classicly AWSOME game that takes some skill and LOTS of replayability with different terrain/difficulty/environmental effects. I'm pretty sure that this could be a good project for a begining or advanced Jaguar programmer.

I really quite fancy this, as a small interim project actually...

I have just to finish some Team Franglais stuff though first!

 

Taking Serblander's comments about he Team Tap, how about

a supporting 4 players, either in split screen mode, or with the

idea of "musical landing pads" - i.e. only 3 pads for 4 landers...

then only 2 pads for 3 landers... in a knockout way to the death.

No violence, simply a competition, the lander will be eliminated.

 

I can see this... somebody more skilled can do a nice 3D version!

 

Cheers,

JustClaws.

[Gunstar]

Hello,

 

You know what I'd REALLY like to see though? I'd like to see a GOLDEN OLDY brought to the Jaguar in spectacular 3D; LUNAR LANDER. I LOVED this game back in the day and I think it would be a FANTASTIC and SIMPLE game to bring to glorious 3D on the Jaguar! It could be another in the great line of 2000/3D games for the Jag with the original vector graphic version, a 2D graphically updated "plus" version and then the 2000/3D version. Anyone? Thoughts?

I agree it would be a great first 3D project - I might try later!

How about a quick and dirty 2D bitmap version to go on with?

Of course some nice graphics and some design ideas will help!

 

I think this would be a great Jaguar game becuase it's simple math for 2D and 3D and is a classicly AWSOME game that takes some skill and LOTS of replayability with different terrain/difficulty/environmental effects. I'm pretty sure that this could be a good project for a begining or advanced Jaguar programmer.

I really quite fancy this, as a small interim project actually...

I have just to finish some Team Franglais stuff though first!

 

Taking Serblander's comments about he Team Tap, how about

a supporting 4 players, either in split screen mode, or with the

idea of "musical landing pads" - i.e. only 3 pads for 4 landers...

then only 2 pads for 3 landers... in a knockout way to the death.

No violence, simply a competition, the lander will be eliminated.

 

I can see this... somebody more skilled can do a nice 3D version!

 

Cheers,

JustClaws.

 

I like your ideas! Making it a multiplayer game or at least muliplayer mode would be very cool too!

 

As far as the 3D goes, has anyone studied Atari's 3D engine? (hoverstrike/space2K) If it would be easier to use this engine, however un-optimized it is, rather than starting from scratch, I believe this engine, even in current form, would be PLENTY poerful enough for a 3D lunar lander, after all, it's not like it has to be fully textured like HS, I've messed with the engine demo on BJL (or was it flashrom?) anyway, it allows plain shading, garuad or textured with/without light sourcing and shading and it's QUITE fast without the texturing, but Lunar Lander is NOT a super fast game anyway, so even using full texture/shading with Atari's engine should be possible anyway, for possible split-screen multiplayer modes, it could be cut back (textures removed) or something. I really don't feel Lunar Lander would have to be a huge graphic extraviganza after all, it's the gameplay that's fun, not the graphics. Heck, I'd even be happy with a 3D WIREFRAME version of Lunar Lander! I just would like this game in 2D&3D versions on cart or CD...

 

This is a classic game that has VERY few ports/clones of it on ANY system, classic or neo-classic/new and think it deserves a remake and I think the Jaguar would be a natural place for it. No worries about copyrights, call it Moon Lander for all I care; it's the game I want, not the name.

 

Let me know down the line if you decide to work on a version JustClaws, I can help with art work for 2D&3D. (of course I expect to be well compensated -just kidding, I'll do it for free for the love of Jag&game-like anyone involved in Jag dev. should be doing it for...)

[Symmetry of TNG]

Hi!

 

..I think my replye to this topic was posted in the "new developer" thread... so if anyone is interested read it there & post replye here=)

 

 

about 4-player:

I always thought a "BoulderDash kind of scrolling game" would do great in multiplayer on the jaguar.. just having 2x2 OP objects that follows each player running in a similar world.. ..or I even beleive the jag to be fast enough to folow "Team-Tap" number of players... though in smaller "windows" (yaiiks, sorry but i had to use that Word.. Yaiks Again *hehe*

 

Anyhow.. it is a nice idea... So is the 3Dlib 3D lander!..

 

All i can say is that there are 1001 ideas/possible things to do on the jaguar!... just not enough coders (that have/Take! time

 

/Sym

[Starcat]

As far as the 3D goes, has anyone studied Atari's 3D engine? (hoverstrike/space2K)

 

There is one big problem with it. Or rather the tools that are needed.

The engine supports the atari given 3D format, which is not very well decomented. (just a few comments created by the converter tool)

Atari also provided a tool to convert 3ds files into this format.

However that converter supports files no newer than 3d studio 3.0 which was still a DOS version. I tried it with newer files and they do not convert.

I also tried to find a converter that might still create 3.0 3ds files, no luck either.

So I think if somebody wants to use that engine he will have to write his own converter, if he wants to use that engine or rewrite the engine to use his own 3D format.

 

Regards, Lars.

[Gunstar]

As far as the 3D goes, has anyone studied Atari's 3D engine? (hoverstrike/space2K)

 

There is one big problem with it. Or rather the tools that are needed.

The engine supports the atari given 3D format, which is not very well decomented. (just a few comments created by the converter tool)

Atari also provided a tool to convert 3ds files into this format.

However that converter supports files no newer than 3d studio 3.0 which was still a DOS version. I tried it with newer files and they do not convert.

I also tried to find a converter that might still create 3.0 3ds files, no luck either.

So I think if somebody wants to use that engine he will have to write his own converter, if he wants to use that engine or rewrite the engine to use his own 3D format.

 

Regards, Lars.

 

That is ashame that it's not well documented, and only works with 3D studio 3.0, but I'm not going to write off the idea YET; as development I'm doing is with older PC tools as well as Atari ST tools (also Amiga/Powermac stuff), so older software is EXACTLY what I use/would use anyway. I really see no sense in using the latest PC WinXP systems for Jaguar development IF you have the older computers to use, since most software WAS made for these older systems. I don't know what you use, Starcat, obviously it's working for you, but 3D studio 3.0 would be perfect for me anyway. Is there an Atari ST or Amiga version of 3D studio 3.0? I seem to recall something like that, I'll have to look into it. Anyhow, it was just a thought, in the end, a 3D engine made from the ground up may be the way to go anyway, but if I got into a project like this, it would still probably be done on older PC/ST/Amiga systems with older software FOR those systems so converter problems would NOT be a problem for me. Anyway, it's all just an idea. I just feel the Jaguar can do quite good 3D stuff, it's not like I'm talking about DC/PS2/Xbox stuff, or even PSX quality 3D (though after seeing stuff like BI/WN it only confirmed my belief that the Jag can come much closer to the PSX than most give it credit for). No one will talk me out of the Jag being a very capable 3D machine, even if it is ONE OF (not THE, IMHO:32X and possibly 3DO come to mind; at least the 3DO and Jag are VERY close in most regards)the weakest in the 32/64-bit era. As I've talked about before in other threads, I don't believe that 3D graphics have to have texuring AT ALL to be good, I've seen a LOT of examples from 16-bit computers, 32X and the Jaguar that look good to me and are good games and they aren't textured to death, if they have texturing at all. Personally, I think games like Armour Geddon on the Amiga/ST look great and Shadow Squadron on the 32X and Jaguar's own Cybermorph&Iron Soldier just to name a few. I'd like to go in different directions like 4/8-bit polygon engines with larger poly numbers for more detail, and worry less about garuad shading and textures&whatnot. It CAN be done without CRY modes Z-buffering too. Period. As always, I very much appreciate your input Starcat, you always have good insights and thoughts/ideas I respect even if I don't always agree with them (I do sometimes). I just really do believe you cut the Jag off at the knees as far as 3D, it's a lot more capable IMHO than you like to give it credit for in most cases. There are some upcoming projects (many still under wraps to many Jag users) that WILL continue to prove the Jag can do great 3D games.

[Starcat]

Hi Gunstar !

 

I am using not the latest hardware, but also not that old hardware.

As I create all my graphics myself (mostly rendered graphics) I am using my normal PC also for development. Which is an athlon 2600+ machine.

 

About Jag 3D, I understand what you say, but for me the Jag is a very divided system when it comes to 3D. It can do some nice 3D if the right person is working on it. Just look at Battlemorph, Missile Command or the IS series. All those are great example what really great developers can do. On the other hand, there are so many bad examples as well.

However it is obvious, that you need to be a master in coding and 3D to reach the graphical quality and speed of games like Battlemorph, IS2 or Missile Command on the Jag. I don't think any Jag game will ever again get close to those titles 3D graphic wise.

Another thing that may also not be forgotten, but that is sadly much too often completely overlooked, is the artistic standpoint in 3D games.

Atari often demonstrated, that what they wanted were texturemaped 3D, even if it ruins the gameplay with a slow framerate.

The important thing to keep in mind, is that 3D graphics should be, just like 2D graphics, only used to support the gameplay.

If the gameplay doesn't need 3D, why make it 3D ? And more improtantly, choose the graphics that make your game best looking and that keep you game most enjoyable.

Atari so often had games with textures, just to be able to say 'look, we use textures'. However if the textures look just bad, you can better keep the models flat shaded.

Graphics, not important what area, are to please the eye of the player.

In my opinion on the Jag 3D was too often just seen as a technical feature of the game engine and not from the artists point of view.

One thing that many people forget, especially when talking about 3D engines and polycounts, is exactly the artists point of view.

When they say, in FFL for example, a character uses 300 polygons, it means absolutely nothing.

A bad artist might need 100.000 polygons for a model, while a good artist can create a much better looking model with less than 200 polygons.

 

Although it seems with many Jag games, that they were seen too techinal.

The engine is not the game. Game Design is what makes the game.

On the Jag however, so many games fail on the technical side already and don't even start thinking about game design.

 

Of course I am referring to the bad titles. There are also some really great example for great games on the Jag.

 

Regards, Lars.

[Happy_Dude]

Hi Gunstar !I think the main problem with this idea and many other is, that there are too few Jag coders out there and most of them have their own projects already, and no time to work on something new..

Actualy I'd say the main problem would be Info-Atari owning the copyrights to LunarLander.

Which is one of the reasons I'v stopped work on a 2600 port

[Starcat]

Hi !

 

Why not just give the game a different name in that case ?

 

Regards, Lars.

[Gunstar]

Hi Gunstar !

 

I don't think any Jag game will ever again get close to those titles 3D graphic wise.

Actually, I DEFINATELY KNOW of at LEAST one fully 3D project in development right now that will PROVE this statement to be wrong.

 

 

Another thing that may also not be forgotten, but that is sadly much too often completely overlooked, is the artistic standpoint in 3D games.

Atari often demonstrated, that what they wanted were texturemaped 3D, even if it ruins the gameplay with a slow framerate.

The important thing to keep in mind, is that 3D graphics should be, just like 2D graphics, only used to support the gameplay.

If the gameplay doesn't need 3D, why make it 3D ? And more improtantly, choose the graphics that make your game best looking and that keep you game most enjoyable.

Atari so often had games with textures, just to be able to say 'look, we use textures'. However if the textures look just bad, you can better keep the models flat shaded.

Graphics, not important what area, are to please the eye of the player.

In my opinion on the Jag 3D was too often just seen as a technical feature of the game engine and not from the artists point of view.

One thing that many people forget, especially when talking about 3D engines and polycounts, is exactly the artists point of view.

When they say, in FFL for example,  a character uses 300 polygons, it means absolutely nothing.

A bad artist might need 100.000 polygons for a model, while a good artist can create a much better looking model with less than 200 polygons.

 

Regards, Lars.

 

I DO know what you are talking about here, as far as artistic value/viewpoint, I AM an artist, and I TOTALLY agree with you on this, I know I could use a bare minimum of polygons in a model and make it look FANTASTIC with proper artwork in the texture-mapping, I feel I could do far better than ANY texture-mapping I've seen on the Jaguar so far in fact. But, I also know that I could forego ALL texture mapping and create lovely 3D polygon models by using hundreds of polygons per model for the detail as well. True artists know that GOOD graphics can be achieved in more than one way and these are just a couple of examples.

Also, I agree that a 3D game doesn't necessarily have to use polygons at all either, 3D sprites (also called pre-rendered) could be used and look VERY good and even better than polygon models if enough sides/views/perspectives are used; e.g., consider the 3D sprites of Jaguar DOOM, they use 8 views: front, back, leftside, rightside, and also three-quarter views (four) whcih are the in-between front/left/right/back views. Then a game like Towers II that only uses 4 views: front,back and left&right sides; it doesn't look nearly as good when they are moving around. Both games also only have 3 frames of animation per side. Increase the sides/views to 16 and frames of animation too, and it could look absolutely incredible. It doesn't stop there either, obviously the better the artist, the better any given sprite can look regardless of number of sides and animation too. Then there are diffent types of graphics that can create "3D" worlds like Doom's engine or AvP, or Towers II or PhaseZero, etc., etc. LOTS of possibilities for "3D" worlds. Plus, many of these different types of 3D can be MIXED, which many games have done; While Battlemorph pretty much sticks to polygons for most everything, Cybermorph used 3D or prerendered sprites for power ups, etc. PhaseZero uses it's unique voxel/heightmapping (whatever you consider it to be) engine AND 3D sprites AND 2D sprites and it looks fantastic, not a single polygon AT ALL. Never think that when talking about 3D games/graphics on the Jaguar or ANY system it refers to JUST polygons; polygons just happen to have become the standard form for 99% of 3D game today, but it's not the only way and it's not the Jag's only way for making 3D games. Jag-ads cd for the Jaguar show some footage of an unreleased Jag game "max force" (as in NERF maxforce) and it uses 3D, pre-rendered sprites (with only 8 sides) and it looks quite good. 3D is DEFINATELY not dead for the Jaguar and you have DEFINATELY not seen the last of GOOD 3D on the Jaguar. PERIOD.

[justclaws]

Hey,

Some news...

 

How about a quick and dirty 2D bitmap version to go on with?

Of course some nice graphics and some design ideas will help!

Loony Lander lives.

 

Look out for it...

JustClaws.

[justclaws]

First binary very soon... from Team Franglais "base".

[Gunstar]

Wow! you just ran with this thing didn't your? I thought you had too much other stuff going on right now, and this would be a minor, side project. Is this something you had already in the works befor I ever mentioned wanting a Luner Lander clone on the Jag? When you were contacting me and speaking of secracy and such, I had no idea you had all of this going on already! It's all good, I'm glad to see this!

[walter_J64bit]

First binary very soon... from Team Franglais "base".

 

 

Hey that good news how far along is the this LUNERLANDER and what about the Tennis game?

[Shaggy the Atarian]

Thanks for bringing more goodness to the Jaguar JustClaws.

[justclaws]

Hello,

 

Wow! you just ran with this thing didn't your? I thought you had too much other stuff going on right now, and this would be a minor, side project. Is this something you had already in the works befor I ever mentioned wanting a Luner Lander clone on the Jag?

Yes, I just ran with it, although I'm struggling with the title/intro page graphics! It wasn't something before you mentioned it, but the base code for the Team Franglais stuff is simple and I just modified it for this purpose...

 

When you were contacting me and speaking of secracy and such, I had no idea you had all of this going on already! It's all good, I'm glad to see this!

Well don't expect a lot, it's a work in progress you know. Most of the ideas I mentioned to you are not implemented yet, but will follow with your input. :-)

 

Cheers,

JustClaws.

Edited September 27, 2007 by justclaws

[justclaws]

Hello,

 

Hey that good news how far along is the this LUNERLANDER and what about the Tennis game?  

Far enough for some basic fun play, but it's a pure 2D project, not 3D.

 

The Tennis game was a project out of the Bounce! code by "FrediFrodo".

Due to problems with graphics, that project I don't think has progressed.

 

Cheers,

JustClaws.

[Gunstar]

Hello' date='

 

Wow! you just ran with this thing didn't your? I thought you had too much other stuff going on right now' date=' and this would be a minor, side project. Is this something you had already in the works befor I ever mentioned wanting a Luner Lander clone on the Jag?[/quote']Yes, I just ran with it, although I'm struggling with the title/intro page graphics! It wasn't something before you mentioned it, but the base code for the Team Franglais stuff is simple and I just modified it for this purpose...

 

When you were contacting me and speaking of secracy and such, I had no idea you had all of this going on already! It's all good, I'm glad to see this!

Well don't expect a lot, it's a work in progress you know. Most of the ideas I mentioned to you are not implemented yet, but will follow with your input. :-)

 

Well, cool. I'm online again now, and have the messenger services up and running, as well as Jagdev stuff and my ST/Amiga/PC on this end and I'm ready to start giving some input. So, I'm basically totally busy with work now Sunday through Wednesday, but I'm totally free Thursday through Saturday on a weekly basis now, so we'll talk soon, I guess probably the best time for us to catch each other online, seeing as we practically live on the oppostie sides of the world, would be mornings for me, Thur.-Sat. which would be your evenings or something along those lines, right? I think your like 12 hours ahead of me or something similiar...talk to you soon, starting thursday I think...

 

Cheers,

JustClaws.

[Symmetry of TNG]

Hi!

 

Cool news JustClaws ... =)

 

Pixel presice collision with true/real game Physics.... (or?... i hope so

 

=) ....Looking forward to a game screenshot ...

 

Nice work! =)

 

cheers

/Sym

[justclaws]

Hello,

 

Pixel presice collision with true/real game Physics.... (or?... i hope so

=) ....Looking forward to a game screenshot ...

Nice work! =)

Um... no, sorry.

To begin with, quick kludge with arcade type feel, multi-player.

Faked "feels right" physics (it *is* an alien body, odd gravity,)

Screenshot shortly. Nice work... no. Just a bit of fun anyway.

 

Cheers,

JustClaws.

[walter_J64bit]

How are things going for Loony Lander ?