Rhetorical & final note about Networks

[Symmetry of TNG]

Yahhhkk what is that smell? ....some one must be throwing evacuation around on some other board.

In an attempt to put a stop to such pointless behavior I post this rhetorical message just to set the record straight:

 

The only thing "bad", or should I say sad, about half duplex is that the jaguar gamers can't play Doom with it!. (don't work is also known as "crippled" but that was not my words).

This is only a matter of programming since it could equally well run on a half duplex (rs485) as well as on a full duplex (rs232) network. Unfortunately Atari allowed the doom net code to be released (with a slight modification to it this would not have been a problem, it would have run equally "well" on a jaglink(full) as on a catbox(half) network, if only one packet was sent at a time).

 

This would have been better since RS485 is a much better solution than old RS232, in ALL aspects (noise resistance, its multiPOINT!! topology, and more). And only an arrogant fool would think I am not educated enough to know these obvious facts!.

 

As a sincere hardware developer for the jaguar scene I have to take some things into consideration, first of all it should preferably be compatible with older hardware. This is from a consumer point of view, since he/she should not have to buy new hardware for each game that comes out supporting that hardware. It should not matter, you should be able to play together no matter what the name of your hardware is.

So any new network hardware now have two "camps" to deal with ...on one side catbox/scatbox being technically superior but only working with new games developed, and on the other side jaglink/jaglink2, still working with newer games plus being compatible with old Doom, but being "lesser" from a technically point of view.

 

The hole thing about my initial post was that I wanted to develop TNG net hardware for the jaguar so that I could debug my network protocol. I started thinking that it would be nice if it was compatible with the rest of the hardware that was out there.

Personally I prefer RS485 since it is a much better standard, but as I understand there are allot of JL2's out there as well.

I also wanted to create a "as close to perfect" RS485 network as possible, following all ISO standards available... But after doing some research (its an academic term, most of you readers here have heard about it) I find that it would have compatibility issues with the catbox (and possibly scatbox?), since.. (I am sorry to say this once more), the catbox is not a perfect design (stating otherwise only reveals lack of knowhow). It "simplifies" or should I say abandons allot of the standards for proper RS485 in favor of "user friendliness"... which might not be a bad thing since to most gamers "industrial noise" is not that big an issue, (which btw makes JL2 and its old 232 not as "faulty option" as some might have you beleive) also the need to allow ~32 players is usually never the case.

 

So now I am "forced" to abandon my initial ISO thought in favor of... the consumers, I would say, since privately I could do a perfect 32player, noise free network, but then have trouble playing with other catboxes.

 

May I add that it could for example have been made more noise resistant with --No extra cost!-- only by stating in the manual that "you can't use mirrored telephone cable".

 

Anyhow..

As a jaguar coder whishing good gameplay for the jagscene, I am totally left on my own when it comes to just this, network code. I have to first reverse engineer the hardware just to figure out what the software should initialize the hardware to, because Nowhere! does anyone describe how to use the hardware in new software. Its like they want sole ownership of the right to use it, so that their product remains "unique".

Secondly I have to invent/debug all the software protocols myself, since this info was lost/never finished by Atari (dont get me wrong, now i have free hands & i like it =).

Sadly enough for the jaguar gamers a "rivalry" of sort has come up between the only living person/persons who ever got the net code to run properly and the only persons crazy enough to still code for the console. A rivalry I am, and always have been against! Since more fun could come out of friendliness and cooperation.

 

But in the end the only thing that is lost is time, since it is jut a matter of time before this network problem is resolved and jaguar gamers can have more fun playing network games.

In the end the only thing that will be affected is how history credits the person who gave fun gameplay to the jaguar.

 

I am sorry if I by this post hurt someone feelings, it is never my intention. I hold NO! grudge against anyone!! in the jaguar scene. But speak bad about me and my competence and I feel that I am entitled to an opinion (even if it is a bit sarcastic at times). I also wish we could waste our time on something more creative.

If anyone feels that their hardware "masterpiece" , no matter what it might be called, has been vandalized by this post I am sorry to say that you don't understand what I mean... might be my problem, since English is not my native tongue, or it might not be...

 

My final thoughts on this.

 

Sincerely

/Symmetry of TNG ...developer in a lost cause...

 

 

Ps. As this is a "rhetorical" post I expect no comments on it good nor bad (I know it goes against basic forum principle & freedom of speech =) but its not like I can force you not to answer nor any of you to speak bad of me behind my back. I can however ask of you Not to misinterpret this post and use it as a bat for your own cause, in any way or form, positive or negative.... end of pointless post. ds.

[+else]

Unfortunately Atari allowed the doom net code to be released (with a slight modification to it this would not have been a problem, it would have run equally "well" on a jaglink(full) as on a catbox(half) network, if only one packet was sent at a time).

 

I don't see how you can blame Atari for not supporting the Catbox. The Jaguar is Atari's creation and they can do with it whatever they see fit. That's like blaming a car manufactuer because this years new model doesn't support after-market parts that are already on the market. It is the Catbox that should be blamed for not fully supporting the Jaguar, imho.

 

As a jaguar coder whishing good gameplay for the jagscene, I am totally left on my own when it comes to just this, network code. I have to first reverse engineer the hardware just to figure out what the software should initialize the hardware to, because Nowhere! does anyone describe how to use the hardware in new software. Its like they want sole ownership of the right to use it, so that their product remains "unique".

 

The reason there is no published information is that there is really nothing to tell. The JagLink, JagLink II, and Catbox are DUMB, DUMB, DUMB devices! You turn the Jaguar on and they are ready to go. There is no initialization that needs to take place whatsoever. They just provide simple hardware connectivity between Jaguars and nothing more -- they just broadcast what ever data the Jaguar gives them to the rest of the network.

 

I don't own a Scatbox so I can't comment on it, but I would assume the same is true for it as well.

 

Secondly I have to invent/debug all the software protocols myself, since this info was lost/never finished by Atari (dont get me wrong, now i have free hands & i like it =).

 

This is true, but don't blame the hardware developers for it! It would be nice if all of the games supported some sort of standard protocol. That would open the door up for all sorts of possiblities, such as a hardware device that encapsulates these standard packets in a TCP/IP header and ships them across the internet to other gamers. But since the Jaguar predates the explosion of the internet, you can't really even blame Atari. So the existing games are what they are and the clock can't be turned back...

 

Of course the flip side of every problem is an opportunity. So here you have an opportunity to define an open software standard for future game developers to follow!

Edited April 14, 2005 by else

[Symmetry of TNG]

Not that it realy matters but thought to give some reflections here:

 

 

>I don't see how you can blame Atari for not supporting the Catbox. The Jaguar is Atari's creation and they can do with it whatever they see fit.

 

 

Offcourse... but if you had any insight into how atari worked you would see that they demanded things to work smoothesly together without fuzz for the consumers.

And when they knew about the catbox beeing released I would have demanded doom code to be compatible with the catbox. but probably the doom cart was released before the catbox, inwhich case there is nothing you can do...

 

 

>The reason there is no published information is that there is really nothing to tell. The JagLink, JagLink II, and Catbox are DUMB, DUMB, DUMB devices!

 

 

Jaglink yes... JagLink2 ...well if you say so ...but catbox.. or rather "half duplex RS485" absolutely Not!... there is nothing "dumb" about it... and There ARE, in general, things to tell about initialising a rs485 network.. since the hardware demands it... and as a programmer with open hands (fully programmable UART) you need to know this inorder not to cause unnessesary powerdrain from the units... or it not to work properly.

..Now you know...

 

 

 

 

>>my own protocol

>but don't blame the hardware developers for it!

 

I wasnt..

 

>So the existing games are what they are and the clock can't be turned back

 

Thats what i said! ...and that is the only thing bad with the catbox that it is not compatible with the current version of doom.

 

But that is not what i am trying to say, since I am one of the few that looks forward and not backwards when it comes to jaguar developements. I want netplay for the jaguar since it is "the future" of gameplay.. and before i do there are some tasks to take care of.

 

 

ahh well... enough sparks...

[Starcat]

Hi!

 

First of all, let me say it again here.. Great work for finding all that info out Symmetry!

 

Not that it realy matters but thought to give some reflections here:

 

 

>I don't see how you can blame Atari for not supporting the Catbox. The Jaguar is Atari's creation and they can do with it whatever they see fit.

 

 

Offcourse... but if you had any insight into how atari worked you would see that they demanded things to work smoothesly together without fuzz for the consumers.

And when they knew about the catbox beeing released I would have demanded doom code to be compatible with the catbox. but probably the doom cart was released before the catbox, inwhich case there is nothing you can do...

 

I think the catbox is newer than doom. But still there are things that could have been done. There could have been proper docs for the catbox. And Atari could have demanded a mode that allows doom to run.

>The reason there is no published information is that there is really nothing to tell. The JagLink, JagLink II, and Catbox are DUMB, DUMB, DUMB devices!

 

Jaglink yes... JagLink2 ...well if you say so ...but catbox.. or rather "half duplex RS485" absolutely Not!... there is nothing "dumb" about it... and There ARE, in general,  things to tell about initialising a rs485 network.. since the hardware demands it... and as a programmer with open hands (fully programmable UART) you need to know this inorder not to cause unnessesary powerdrain from the units... or it not to work properly.

..Now you know...

 

 

 

 

>>my own protocol

>but don't blame the hardware developers for it!

 

I wasnt..

 

>So the existing games are what they are and the clock can't be turned back

 

Thats what i said! ...and that is the only thing bad with the catbox that it is not compatible with the current version of doom.

 

But that is not what i am trying to say, since I am one of the few that looks forward and not backwards when it comes to jaguar developements. I want netplay for the jaguar since it is "the future" of gameplay.. and before i do there are some tasks to take care of.

 

I fully agree and I look forward in Jag dev as well. It would be great if one could support network properly in games in the future. Maybe even bug free network.

 

Who knows, maybe there could be real Jaguar network competitions on the Jag fests in the future with games allowing more than 2 players and without network problems

 

Regards, Lars.