+Stephen Posted September 2, 2005 Share Posted September 2, 2005 It's not only in the feeling of 1987... Giving todays results of development to a guy that know the machine only from the early days, he will think that graphics & sound it's from another/superior machine. 923912[/snapback] Yeah - it does seem like a different machine. Unfortunately, I never got to experience any of the European software of the early 90s. I've been doing a ton of catching up via emulation the past few years, but it will be nice when I finally have a PAL machine all set & modified to run the latest demos. Stephen Anderson Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
emkay Posted September 3, 2005 Author Share Posted September 3, 2005 (edited) Just Marvellous (if one likes this type of music) Just again you hear some "impossible" sounds... This time i think it is another "milestone" to pokey music, so I gave it a "new" name and call it finished ... (even by some reverb problems) Can anyone please check if the sounds are played correctly on the real thing. Thanks! Btw: For a short time I wanted to name it "Daisy Paula" ... guess why ? Edited September 3, 2005 by emkay Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wrathchild Posted September 3, 2005 Share Posted September 3, 2005 Wow, with sounds like that a fair rendition of the tune for the ST (and others) game 'Blood Money' could be done, nice work Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
emkay Posted September 3, 2005 Author Share Posted September 3, 2005 Wow, with sounds like that a fair rendition of the tune for the ST (and others) game 'Blood Money' could be done, nice work 924332[/snapback] The first musically sound is often used by AMIGA Tunes. And it is typical for the AMIGA-Lemmings music aswell. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wrathchild Posted September 3, 2005 Share Posted September 3, 2005 The first musically sound is often used by AMIGA Tunes. And it is typical for the AMIGA-Lemmings music aswell. 924339[/snapback] I just downloaded the Blood Money Amiga mod files and they're nothing like the ST tune, more sample based, I guess I prefer the ST version. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
emkay Posted September 3, 2005 Author Share Posted September 3, 2005 The first musically sound is often used by AMIGA Tunes. And it is typical for the AMIGA-Lemmings music aswell. 924339[/snapback] I just downloaded the Blood Money Amiga mod files and they're nothing like the ST tune, more sample based, I guess I prefer the ST version. 924371[/snapback] Ofcourse... Blood Money on the AMIGA is sample based. Where can I get the ST tune for listening? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wrathchild Posted September 3, 2005 Share Posted September 3, 2005 (edited) Where can I get the ST tune for listening? Found this under http://chiptunes.back2roots.org/ym in whittaker,_david.zip Example YM player: http://sourceforge.net/projects/sc68 or http://leonard.oxg.free.fr/stsound.html blood_money_ym.zip Edited September 3, 2005 by Wrathchild Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
emkay Posted September 3, 2005 Author Share Posted September 3, 2005 Where can I get the ST tune for listening? Found this under http://chiptunes.back2roots.org/ym in whittaker,_david.zip Example YM player: http://sourceforge.net/projects/sc68 or http://leonard.oxg.free.fr/stsound.html 924411[/snapback] Hm...Now I'm a bit twisted... The latest sounds are imho far superior to the sounds of the piece of music you proposed. Why going "backward" I listened even to the SID, which really has some ... erm.... sid style sounds in it, and it would be a real challenge to put pokey that far... in it's own way. Seems, we better should find a way to convert "blue danub" Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
emkay Posted September 3, 2005 Author Share Posted September 3, 2005 The only thing that disturbs me....: The basses (or the parts with the basses) are not sentimental enough.... Has anyone an idea? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
emkay Posted September 4, 2005 Author Share Posted September 4, 2005 OK.... several changes. One bass note is pitched up ... & the whole song is "better floating". Instruments are better tuned (imho). Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
raster/c.p.u. Posted September 5, 2005 Share Posted September 5, 2005 And here's an old tune (a conversion from an earlier thread about pokey music)some changes by mux enjoy_mux_exp15.zip Wow. Very nice! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
emkay Posted September 5, 2005 Author Share Posted September 5, 2005 (edited) OK.... the huge response to support "hardsynth" always impresses me. So here s the 2nd part of the tune, where I made some "clean guitar" sound for. Perhaps it is almost "hearable" that I'm no musician, the instruments still may be out of tune. The "envelop" shows how the instrument can be "finetuned".... So, if anyone wants to try.... Edited September 5, 2005 by emkay Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
emkay Posted September 8, 2005 Author Share Posted September 8, 2005 I found a "self modifiing" sound... it produces some slight noise even in higher notes.... which spreads the usable notation range. But this is extremely depending on the timing.... thus the sound is different in RMT and in the emulator allthough the same dll's now used. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
emkay Posted September 9, 2005 Author Share Posted September 9, 2005 Ever heard an "unplugged" version of the "menace" song? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
emkay Posted September 9, 2005 Author Share Posted September 9, 2005 You know those? c c# d d# e f f# g g# a a# h Well... those are the terms for one octave .... for making music "Hey.... ofcourse I know that" you say? hm.... Any chance to have a tool at least for creating octaves with pokey's different settings? You know, POKEY's 8-bit are not really in tune. So instead of playing 440Hz, it plays something like 432Hz and 446 Hz. Building a noisy sawtooth, results in a sound near to 439Hz .... "Oh... cool" you think.... then let's play noisy sawtooths... Well, it could be so easy. But, there is another problem: Let's say, a 500Hz tone would be "correct", playing it with the same manipulation, it goes "off"... perhaps to 490Hz.... so it would be needed to use the next higher pitch. And, vice versa, it could be necessary to use the next lower pitch with a different sound-manipulation. RMT offers the possibilites of adjusting the note or the pitch. Both doesn't work correctly when doing different sounds and/or POKEY setups. Looking at the "SID", it has some predefined settings for making music. So, the musician, can listen & compare to the "real" pitch & doing sound manipulations. To have something similar for the POKEY, we strongly need "tuned" notation tables for all possible POKEY settings. I approximate at least 24 of them, including (and in combination) -different generator clocking -different generators -different filter settings -16 bit resolution -16 bit combi At the end, one could play a melody with all possible pokey settings in one, without a knowledge of the hardware.... from this "base" one could do "real music" and try to get further sounds/fx ... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
emkay Posted September 9, 2005 Author Share Posted September 9, 2005 Hm... ok.... the sound possibilies of the "new DLL's" are shown.... Finally the "final" version of the "Daisy Chain" conversion (nice sentence ) So here the really last tune ... until a real serious pokey-tracker is available. I have no idea how to create a song with a better demonstration of the sound-possibilities. So, either sometimes a real POKEY-Synth-Tracker will be available or we never have real pokey music.... it's as simple as written. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
emkay Posted September 10, 2005 Author Share Posted September 10, 2005 At least some can do some combination of the "new" and the "old"... What's the name of the tune ? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
analmux Posted September 10, 2005 Share Posted September 10, 2005 @ emkay: I think you've showed us enough what the capabilities of Pokey truely are Now I think it's about time there's another Pokey music contest (grayscale ?) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tezz Posted September 10, 2005 Share Posted September 10, 2005 (edited) Ever heard an "unplugged" version of the "menace" song? Interesting to see my version of the Menace track with your new instruments Emkay. I'm still using RMT heavily but as a musician I find the detuned results frustrating, it's possible to alter instrument settings in semitones but essential fine tuning to create the exact notes tone isn't availalbe so making multiple copies of the same instrument with differing settings doesn't help. It's all very interesting to make some dynamic new Pokey sounds but if they are out of key they are of course no use in music. Perhaps a strictly controlled routine in a new Pokey tracker or new version of RMT can get around this even if it results in more CPU time being used. It is surley possible to enforce the correct key within instrument and playback Edited September 10, 2005 by Tezz Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
emkay Posted September 10, 2005 Author Share Posted September 10, 2005 (edited) Ever heard an "unplugged" version of the "menace" song? Interesting to see my version of the Menace track with your new instruments Emkay. I'm still using RMT heavily but as a musician I find the detuned results frustrating, it's possible to alter instrument settings in semitones but essential fine tuning to create the exact notes tone isn't availalbe so making multiple copies of the same instrument with differing settings doesn't help. It's all very interesting to make some dynamic new Pokey sounds but if they are out of key they are of course no use in music. Perhaps a strictly controlled routine in a new Pokey tracker or new version of RMT can get around this even if it results in more CPU time being used. It is surley possible to enforce the correct key within instrument and playback 928851[/snapback] Well... after all those years I'm still not sure about "the meaning of out of tune"... (seeing people listen to "nice tunes" with overall false harmonics.... ) Ofcourse, "out of key" is a problem of almost all POKEY Trackers. But, there are other problems... like the "sound" of an instrument. So a "honky tonk piano" sounds "our of tune" to a "Piano".... but it isn't out of tune, it's another sound colour for the instrument and the music . That's why I made another conversion. It's particular the "trumpet/sax/brass" sound, that fits very good into that tune. Because it used samples for songparts, I did some 1.79MHz sounds for "filling"... To say it (the "trumpet") sounds "out of tune" means to say that the original sounds out of tune. Edited September 10, 2005 by emkay Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tezz Posted September 10, 2005 Share Posted September 10, 2005 (edited) "out of key" is a problem of almost all POKEY Trackers Out of key is very apparent to a musicians ears, it immediately hits you. Even a little detuning ruins a nice composition. The problem I find most disheartening when I'm working with Pokey is that certain keys do sound correct whilst others are far from in key. This results in a dreadfully "out of tune" song with the pitch all over the place. This has been most apparent with "bass" sounds lower notes C-F are relatively in key but the higher up the octave G-B sounds more detuned. I'm sure there is an obvious reason for this staring at me but I am still awating a eureka moment! I guess it really depends on how the Pokey generates it's tone and how acurate this is ultimately. (and the emulation of this) Maybe I expect too much from the hardware design which was not intended to be 100% musically acurate like a synthersizer or maybe we just need acurate controlling code perhaps and emulation down to the voltage level as you have mentioned. But I'm no expert with that and I'm just speculating. I'm sure there is a total solution waiting to be written. I think "out of tune" harmonics such as a honky tonk piano is aceptable that's not an issue at all, but the problem experienced here is detuning between keys. a C is a C and a D is a D, but when using RMT sometimes the C note is in key and harmonious with the other instrumentts playing and then a higher note played is detuned and noticable "out of key" Edited September 10, 2005 by Tezz Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
emkay Posted September 10, 2005 Author Share Posted September 10, 2005 (edited) I think "out of tune" harmonics such as a honky tonk piano is aceptable that's not an issue at all, but the problem experienced here is detuning between keys. a C is a C and a D is a D, but when using RMT sometimes the C note is in key and harmonious with the other instrumentts playing and then a higher note played is detuned and noticable "out of key" 928931[/snapback] Following "problems" can be the cause, why one is noticing the sound as "out of tune", even if the frequency is correct: The high frequencies are louder than low frequencies. Low notes have a higher "noise-part" than high notes. The noise makes the sounds "warm" and without the noise, the sound gets cold The changing of the sounds with a fixed 50Hz VBI, results in higher interferences when the frequencies get lower. Start & end of a note at the wrong position. Edited September 10, 2005 by emkay Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tezz Posted September 10, 2005 Share Posted September 10, 2005 (edited) yes indeed, the differing audibles between lower and higher frequencies does appear to be where the problem seems to lie, Low notes have a higher "noise-part" than high notesit is the reason behind this I am pondering. Is it possible I ask myself that the tones generated by the Pokey are an inacurate generator? The warm/cold lower/higher notes are a usual tonal colouring which makes the depth a tune have a full spectrum of sound but the detuning is actual to my ears The changing of the sounds with a fixed 50Hz VBI, results in higher interferences when the frequencies get lower. Start & end of a note at the wrong position. This would cause an issue I would think.. hmmm something to think about Edited September 10, 2005 by Tezz Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
emkay Posted September 10, 2005 Author Share Posted September 10, 2005 yes indeed, the differing audibles between lower and higher frequencies does appear to be where the problem seems to lie, Low notes have a higher "noise-part" than high notesit is the reason behind this I am pondering. I'm not sure if you got it already, but the filtered sounds I used, are using a higher frequency range already. Most sounds are good for 1.5 - 2 octaves. "mine" are working over 3 octaves...... What still has to be done is the volume correction on a real machine. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Heaven/TQA Posted September 11, 2005 Share Posted September 11, 2005 interesting theory you have mentioned...pokey is unable to play correct "in tune" notes... that would stress the reason why pokey was used for sound fx in atari arcades.... 2nd theory....every atari tracker does have this problem... CMC, MPT, TMC...would be nice to hear from Jaskier as coder of TMC what he thinks about this problem and how he might solved it same goes to Miker, Xray and other Atari musicians what they think about the OOT-problem (Out Of Tune... ) and how they try to make it right with their trackers... this is interesting... some clever guys have to think about that... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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