Atari XL/XE vs ZX Spectrum... And the winner is...

[emkay]

12 hours ago, Faicuai said:

 

"Zilog inside"

 

???

 

Looks pretty fluid, smooth. Nice !!

XXL usually doesn't show Speccy demos. 

But this one is "not listed" so 'm quite curious

[zbyti]

I was sure I'v seen this before on Spectrum but can't find anything good like this. Good stuff!

 

Project-M 2.0 converted to ZX?  

 

We can expect conversion of xBios for the ZX too?  

Edited February 24, 2021 by zbyti

[ilmenit]

28 minutes ago, zbyti said:

I was sure I'v seen this before on Spectrum but can't find anything good like this. Good stuff!

Project-M 2.0 converted to ZX?  

Alone Coder, who did this, is one of the best programmers on ZX scene. Original:

 

and for ProjectM... well... ZX Spectrum had Wolf3d done as a full game in 2004:

 

Edited February 24, 2021 by ilmenit

[emkay]

29 minutes ago, zbyti said:

I was sure I'v seen this before on Spectrum but can't find anything good like this. Good stuff!

 

Project-M 2.0 converted to ZX?  

 

We can expect conversion of xBios for the ZX too?  

Well, you know the Speccy version always uses some color. The demo by XXL uses atari like b/w . That's why I'm still curious about the specs.

[zbyti]

17 minutes ago, ilmenit said:

Alone Coder, who did this, is one of the best programmers on ZX scene. Original:

 

and for ProjectM... well... ZX Spectrum had Wolf3d done as a full game in 2004:

 

THX @ilmenit I was sure I saw this somewhere, good finding.

 

Wolf3d on ZX is clumsy but it is full game, indeed, not like Project-M.

[xxl]

yes, this is the original ZX code ... and code is GOOD

 

lets rock with sprites:

 

[Mclaneinc]

That Critical Error is wonderful, the multi colour pics are just insane...

 

Credit where credit is due...

[xxl]

yes I was one of the coders in Critical Error ... I can boldly say that I was standing next to the best coder on the ZX scene   

 

handed them towels

Edited February 24, 2021 by xxl

[zbyti]

 2012

 

Form movie description:

 

Quote

You might remember that little (that's when you compare to the modern games which are just about 5 DVDs big) first-person shooter called Wolfenstein 2004. You might also remember its' 48K port, as first seen in HRPG's demo, Critical Error. And now, Alone Coder has released it separately, with its' source open and some changes added in.

 

First, it allows you to navigate the map, that's considering that the controls are a whole lot better than in the 128K version, because of the strafe feature: A and D strafe while O and P turn. That might look like an odd control scheme at first, but if you don't have the Kempston mouse, that's just a perfect solution for the Spectrum keyboard which is in fact different from a keyboard you now have below your head. Second, the screen area has been shrinked, but that's only to gain advantage for sprite processing. Yes, it has sprites, even despite there's only one kind of them at the moment.

 

...and here's the third difference: since it's opensource right now, it's also possible to alter the map you'll be walking on! Considering that the old Wolf2004 maps are (kinda) compatible with the new one.

 

So, the thing you see on the video is an example of what you could make in the local map editor whenever someone would make a complete game on this engine. It's not a perfect example, though, considering such things as: 1) the starting point is hardcoded, 2) the sprites are hardcoded here, 3) it's not a demonstration of my mapping skills anyway. And yes, indeed, the maps in Wolf2004 are smaller than in the DOS original, Wolfenstein 3D, but to a viewer that doesn't expect anything, they will look too freaking big to fit in 48K of memory with sprites and shit.

 

In fact, the allowed map size is big enough to make something like a deathmatch game! Which can be played either with bots, or via splitscreen (I mean, look at how many FPS the engine makes so far!) or Spectranet (although that's doubtful, considering how much place is left for the rest of the code).

 

Therefore, kudos to Alone Coder and Shiru, with everyone else who supported this project for about sixteen years of its' existence.

 

P. S. Just to note, compiling the custom map demo not only requires some knowledge on Wolf2004 Map Editor, but also some knowledge on how to compile (or, at least, assemble) stuff in ALASM, a ZX Spectrum assemble program.

 

Edited February 24, 2021 by zbyti
description

[xxl]

a lot has changed since 2012 ... the world has moved on. Almost every Atari is 1MB and the best ZX productions still run at 48K

 

[youxia]

34 minutes ago, xxl said:

 the best ZX productions still run at 48K

Which is all the more impressive, I'd say.

 

Case in point: Wudang

 

 

Written entirely in BASIC

[emkay]

41 minutes ago, xxl said:

a lot has changed since 2012 ... the world has moved on. Almost every Atari is 1MB and the best ZX productions still run at 48K

 

What size is this "3D" Projection of?

The Speccy Wolf engine seems to be using 192x128 pixel.

Edited February 24, 2021 by emkay

[xxl]

24 minutes ago, emkay said:

What size is this "3D" Projection of?

The Speccy Wolf engine seems to be using 192x128 pixel.

the best quality is at 128x96 - GR.6 - 2 colors  

unfortunately, it is not possible to match the resolution and speed of Critical Error - you can not see it, but the engine was developing, it gained a significant advantage when masking the sky by attributes, not graphics

but the strongest advantage is not the speed but the way of controlling the player, although refreshing is weak the player does not feel slowing down

[emkay]

1 hour ago, xxl said:

the best quality is at 128x96 - GR.6 - 2 colors  

unfortunately, it is not possible to match the resolution and speed of Critical Error - you can not see it, but the engine was developing, it gained a significant advantage when masking the sky by attributes, not graphics

but the strongest advantage is not the speed but the way of controlling the player, although refreshing is weak the player does not feel slowing down

What is the real bad part there?

The Speccy does tearing , it's not funny. 

Your Video shows rock solid images. Additional colors, like a sky or floor could be done still using the PMg.

Possibly 2 DLIs, setting the shapes to a fixed area , playing a little with GPRIOR...?

 

[xxl]

36 minutes ago, emkay said:

What is the real bad part there?

The Speccy does tearing , it's not funny. 

Your Video shows rock solid images. Additional colors, like a sky or floor could be done still using the PMg.

Possibly 2 DLIs, setting the shapes to a fixed area , playing a little with GPRIOR...?

 

it would take 4x as long to do it in a similar way to the ZX. writing 256 bytes on the ZX and on the Atari 960 - such a simplification. The PMG masking will take 240 bytes but much more time because eorfill has to be performed - at the moment of filling there is no Z-buffer ready. the best effect is to reduce the window and write to the screen in the classic way. A very similar fill effect is used in DeathChaseXE but here its less writes on the screen. PMG can be used later, for some background elements for example (z-Buffer will be available)

 

[emkay]

35 minutes ago, xxl said:

it would take 4x as long to do it in a similar way to the ZX. writing 256 bytes on the ZX and on the Atari 960 - such a simplification.

 

 

Of course. But, as the character mode of the Spectrum seems to be used also for some double buffer, the writing to the screen is much more complex than on the Atari. 

Really, that wobbling/tearing causes nausea on the Spectrum, similar to every C64 3D game.

If the engine doesn't draw all content in one frame, what is the framecounter worth? 

 

Quote

 

The PMG masking will take 240 bytes but much more time because eorfill has to be performed - at the moment of filling there is no Z-buffer ready.

 

My proposal was to use the shapes (no DMA) of the PMg to bring some additional colors in. Particular lightning FX.  

 

Quote

the best effect is to reduce the window and write to the screen in the classic way. A very similar fill effect is used in DeathChaseXE but here its less writes on the screen. PMG can be used later, for some background elements for example (z-Buffer will be available)

 

 

If such an Engine reaches 9 fps , everything should be fine. The more , the better, but big borders kill everything. 

 

 

 

Edited February 24, 2021 by emkay

[emkay]

@XXL

Have you ever considered Mode 7?

You might need a DLI (or special charset pointer adjustment) for every Character line, but it offers a resolution similar to mode C, but then you get the benefit of character "double buffer" and "masking". 

Then you also get the possibility of using 4 playfield colors (plus background).

[+Stephen]

Been a while since we had a Mode 7 post.  It's such a powerful mode we should have Quake by now.

[Mazzspeed]

On 2/25/2021 at 4:54 AM, emkay said:

Really, that wobbling/tearing causes nausea on the Spectrum, similar to every C64 3D game.

I think you need to get your eyes checked, I've never noticed this issue on either platform. I certainly don't see it in the linked video.

Edited February 27, 2021 by Mazzspeed

[emkay]

1 minute ago, Stephen said:

Been a while since we had a Mode 7 post.  It's such a powerful mode we should have Quake by now.

 

For some case I hoped someone would step into this trap. Occasionally the right person ... 

 

You should read the post before answering.  

 

A clue afterwards: You should read every post ...

[emkay]

1 minute ago, Mazzspeed said:

 

actually , it does.

[Mazzspeed]

2 minutes ago, emkay said:

actually , it does.

I experience nothing in that video that I haven't seen on every 8 bit platform rendering FPS style effects. They aren't exactly optimized for it.

[emkay]

1 minute ago, Mazzspeed said:

I experience nothing in that video that I haven't seen on every 8 bit platform rendering FPS style effects. They aren't exactly optimized for it.

But you could check any "atari 3D projection" without any tearing or wobbling. 

Heck, even rescue on fractalus has some wobbling on the C64. 

[emkay]

1 hour ago, Mazzspeed said:

I experience nothing in that video that I haven't seen on every 8 bit platform rendering FPS style effects. They aren't exactly optimized for it.

You could play youtube videos a 0,25 x speed. Possibly you get it then. 

It seems to take up to 3 frames to have the whole frame filled. 

Edited February 27, 2021 by emkay

[_The Doctor__]

I hate to admit it, but on real hardware... emkay of all people is correct about the visual distortions.

 

Perhaps his visual acuity is up to the challenge and yours isn't. Just like some people have a greater hearing range... maybe some folks can see motion better than others... who knows... a trained ear can hear things by how they process the sound better than the untrained ear.

 

constant abuse can cause a person to go tone deaf, or impact hearing. Maybe video abuse can do some terrible things to the eyes as well...