Batari BASIC and naysaying

[Atari-Jess]

Another thing we have to accept is that homebrew Atari carts are quite simply not cheap.

 

The Atari 2600 is not like the Atari 8bits where you could easily sell a game

made with basic if you wanted to, all you'd have to do is send them a disk

or even a printout of the basic code.

 

Now, we have the benefit of being able to send people .bin files but if someone

wants to sell their game, they are not going to want to sell bin files through

paypal.

 

Batari BASIC games in my opinion seem to be where Atari games were

from 1977-1981.

 

That is to say, low-res and simple. (note the exclusion of "not-fun")

 

This is because BASIC is like that, Assembly will always triumph over BASIC

when it comes to the quality potential (key word right there) of a game.

 

And while certainly some of the ASM games aren't exactly amazing

(I won't point anyone out) they all (that I can remember) look better than

what I would expect a bB game to be able to achieve.

 

So what is my point?

 

We already live in the post-2600 world where the modern games are

created on systems hundreds/thousands maybe even tens of thousands

more powerful than the 2600. And while the vast majority of people here

can play and accept the 2600 games, they've been "forced" to live in a

reality where computers and consoles have developed past their beloved

rose-tinted-glasses-viewed console.

 

So I believe that games made with bB may be "destined" to be sold as

multicart packages if they expect to sell them.

 

If it came down two two "shooter" type games (which can be quite varied)

a person is much more likely to buy the slightly more expensive

(could be as slight as two or three dollars!) game because it looks much

more polished than the bB game that while also fun, doesn't look as nice.

 

This is the reality of it, BASIC coded games cannot be sold for substantially

less than a handcoded Assembly game, and so quantity is what I believe

to be the best way to triumph over the ASM games pure quality. (By quantity

I mean in the form of multicarts.) The amazing quality that comes out of ASM

games has gotten to the point where the 2600 homebrew buying community is no

longer "begging for scraps" as it were and are no longer buying everything

and anything just because its for the Atari 2600.

 

I am an advocate of Batari BASIC but I also believe I am a realist when

it comes to things like this.

 

To Jess Ragan: There is nothing wrong with wanting to sell your game

as an individual game, but maybe you should consider making a

"Jess Ragan Multicart" that includes a couple games you've made?

 

I think my observations make sense and I think people will generally

agree with me, but I enjoy debate

[Jess Ragan]

I could, if I had made more than one game in Batari BASIC.

 

Seriously, it's not out of the realm of possibility. A Wario Ware-style game could be lots 'o kooky fun on the system.

 

JR

[+batari]

This is the reality of it, BASIC coded games cannot be sold for substantially

less than a handcoded Assembly game, and so quantity is what I believe

to be the best way to triumph over the ASM games pure quality. (By quantity

I mean in the form of multicarts.) The amazing quality that comes out of ASM

games has gotten to the point where the 2600 homebrew buying community is no

longer "begging for scraps" as it were and are no longer buying everything

and anything just because its for the Atari 2600.

 

I am an advocate of Batari BASIC but I also believe I am a realist when

it comes to things like this.

 

To Jess Ragan: There is nothing wrong with wanting to sell your game

as an individual game, but maybe you should consider making a

"Jess Ragan Multicart" that includes a couple games you've made?

 

I think my observations make sense and I think people will generally

agree with me, but I enjoy debate

897988[/snapback]

I thought I'd add my opinion here. I agree with just about everything you have said here. Certainly, a multicart would sell better. But I think that a single good bB game could sell moderately by itself.

 

What bolsters my belief is the fact that someone made carts of a Space Invaders graphics hack last winter, which couldn't have taken more than an hour to create with a hacking tool. Last time I checked, he has sold 12 carts at $20 each.

 

As I understand, a well-polished 2600 homebrew, written in asm, may sell 50-75 units.

 

So I'd expect something in between.

[s0c7]

We're kind of putting the "cart" before the horse anyway. So far Jess is the only one who has a "finished" game (not trying to diminish your game Tork110, just haven't seen a "it's finished" from you). However, it's probably a good thing to get this discussion out of the way now before too many people join the scene.

 

I have a feeling we're currently making the equivalent of the initial 9 Atari games (about half of which I still like - but that doesn't seem to be the prevailing opinion). By this time next year, bB will be much more robust with a bunch of different kernals. Newbies will be looking at the stuff we're doing now and laughing at it. But we were here first .

 

BTW Jess, keep in mind what happened to Kirk. If you do do Satan's Hollow, you may want to call it Lucifer's Canyon or something like that.

Edited July 25, 2005 by s0c7

[Atari-Jess]

"baddybadmans hole in the ground"

[Atari-Jess]

it's probably a good thing to get this discussion out of the way now before too many people join the scene.

898185[/snapback]

 

My thoughts exactly.

 

If a sort of "loose agreement" between the people already in the scene doesn't exist

early, it will be hard to guide/convince new people to follow form and accept things

as realistically they should be accepted.

 

I am sure to expect some fantastic games to come out of bB eventually but untill we

see more "advance mode" kernals and the like, we will be stuck with games that I'd

like to call "system limits".

 

One of the things I love about 2600 programmers is that its the system that needs to

be pushed beyond its limits to continue to amaze.

 

not like today where we are getting 4-5 years out of a system thats hardly utilized!

[Tork110]

Let's just say my game is finished for now. I really want to see new versions of Batari Basic before I add more stuff, like having my sprites have more colors. I guess I should add more and more stuff but right now I want to try to see what else I can do. Right now I want to see if I can make some kind of adventure game. I think it would be great if you can have stuff like a map and an inventory and solve simple puzzles. I also want to see if a Metroid style game.

 

I don't know if either of those are possible, but I do want to see what I can do.

[raindog]

I have two words to say to BB naysayers: Bally Astrocade.

 

In a way, having a BASIC compiler available makes the 2600 feel "more complete" as a homebrew platform. There's finally a middle ground between "hack-o-matic" and "dasm". There will be games that get made that never would have gotten made otherwise. And some people will say "If only I could have more than 6 bad guys across the screen..." and end up using the generated assembler as a starting point for learning how to program a "real" Atari game.

 

Honestly, I was convinced as soon as I played Jess' game. It sure is a lot less sucky than most of the games I played in '83-84....

[kisrael]

I have two words to say to BB naysayers:  Bally Astrocade.

Would you remind us what the story of Bally Astrocade and homebrews was again?

[Atari-Jess]

I also want to see if a Metroid style game.

898476[/snapback]

 

That could definitely be done.

 

Just make an adventure clone, but have gravity, you'd have the two sprites around for monsters to attack, but I could see it being done.

[danwinslow]

Nay, I say! NAY!

 

 

What are we saying Nay to?

 

 

Are we the programmers who say Nay?

[raindog]

I have two words to say to BB naysayers:  Bally Astrocade.

Would you remind us what the story of Bally Astrocade and homebrews was again?

I think this account probably sums it up best, but the short version is that there was a newsletter called The Arcadian which I think is analogous to a pre-Internet version of the Stella-list.

 

http://www.ballyalley.com/ballyalley/artic...ion-edited.html

 

Of course, the Astrocade never had near the market share of the 2600, which makes that early homebrew community that much more impressive.

[djmips]

Nay, I say! NAY!

 

 

What are we saying Nay to?

 

 

Are we the programmers who say Nay?

899272[/snapback]

 

 

We are now no longer the programmers Who Say "Nay"!

 

I think the nay-saying is over hyped.

 

(we are now the programmers who say ekky ekky... er what was the rest? )

 

EDIT--->

 

Also thought I'd double up this post and state the obvious, that batari basic is compiled.... which differs greatly from most basics of the classic age that were interpreted.

 

It's great to have a basic which runs fast, but you do lose the interactivity that made the classic basics quite a lot of fun.

Edited July 27, 2005 by djmips

[kisrael]

It's great to have a basic which runs fast, but you do lose the interactivity that made the classic basics quite a lot of fun.

A tight enough compile-run loop feels just about as interactive.

Especially if you don't use like Z26 which resets the screen in a chunky fashion.

 

The all in one IDE would feel even more like that I think.

[uosipa llamxew]

A Wario Ware-style game could be lots 'o kooky fun on the system.

 

I think this is a great idea - it would be a good way to show the diverse possibilities of Batari Basic by compiling a bunch of different mini-games on one cart. Having several people working together (each to his own mini-game) may speed up development as they could assist eachother to implement new gaming ideas and sort out problems as they arise.

 

Forgive me for thinking out loud for a moment.

[vdub_bobby]

Especially if you don't use like Z26 which resets the screen in a chunky fashion.

Huh? z26 can be run in a window, just like Stella. And I've never noticed z26 resetting the screen in a chunky fashion when run full-screen anyway. At least, I don't think I have. What does "chunky" mean in this context again?

[kisrael]

Especially if you don't use like Z26 which resets the screen in a chunky fashion.

Huh? z26 can be run in a window, just like Stella. And I've never noticed z26 resetting the screen in a chunky fashion when run full-screen anyway. At least, I don't think I have. What does "chunky" mean in this context again?

Hmm. Maybe I have it setup poorly on my system. I might be using an older version of Z26, and I have it as the default app for .bin files, with no arguments, and the default is full screen.

 

"Chunky" means I can almost hear the "kachunk" as it switches over and I momentarily see my Windows desktop at a different resolution and limited and wrong color set.

[djmips]

Especially if you don't use like Z26 which resets the screen in a chunky fashion.

Huh? z26 can be run in a window, just like Stella. And I've never noticed z26 resetting the screen in a chunky fashion when run full-screen anyway. At least, I don't think I have. What does "chunky" mean in this context again?

Hmm. Maybe I have it setup poorly on my system. I might be using an older version of Z26, and I have it as the default app for .bin files, with no arguments, and the default is full screen.

 

"Chunky" means I can almost hear the "kachunk" as it switches over and I momentarily see my Windows desktop at a different resolution and limited and wrong color set.

903846[/snapback]

 

Different video cards/monitors do different things when switching to full screen. It can be quite a pop on some older multisyncs.

 

I use the following batch file under windows 2000 and it is associated with bin files.

 

The start command prevents a command prompt window from staying open. The other options are in the z26 docs, but it opens in an 800x600 window and does mouse capture within that window and counts scan lines.

 

start D:\Development\2600\Z26V213X\Z26.EXE -n -M0 -v16 %1

[Jess Ragan]

In a way, having a BASIC compiler available makes the 2600 feel "more complete" as a homebrew platform.  There's finally a middle ground between "hack-o-matic" and "dasm".

 

Honestly, I was convinced as soon as I played Jess' game.  It sure is a lot less sucky than most of the games I played in '83-84....

898587[/snapback]

 

Aw, shucks! (blushes)

 

I think it's fair to compare the average bB effort to the games released early in the 2600's life. I definitely wouldn't pit Solar Plexus against Midnight Magic, Solaris, or even Secret Quest, but it sure beats the pants off Star Ship (aka "Toilets... In... Spaaaace!") and other early 2600 titles.

 

The games will get better as Batari BASIC improves, but there are still plenty of available functions that can your software a more polished look. I'm really surprised at what the 2600 can do, offering large (well, long, anyway) sprites and even the ability to stretch them out to double, even triple their original size! Playing with the TIA registers made me feel like a kid in a blocky candy store!

 

Anyway, now that I've got a full-time job and other obligations, I'll probably be cutting back on my 2600 homebrewing... at least until I find a less stressful career. I've had some pretty cool ideas for games, so I'll have plenty of ammunition when I get back into the 2600 game designing groove.

 

JR

[Luigi301]

The games will get better as Batari BASIC improves, but there are still plenty of available functions that can your software a more polished look.  I'm really surprised at what the 2600 can do, offering large (well, long, anyway) sprites and even the ability to stretch them out to double, even triple their original size!  Playing with the TIA registers made me feel like a kid in a blocky candy store!

 

905347[/snapback]

 

TIA registers are fun! You can make loads of game modes with them if you want to go the Space Invaders 116-in-1 route.

[MayDay]

kisrael: The "point and click atari programming" Thread did have a fair amount skepticism *before* bB came out, some of which has been retracted I think, and some of which I'd say the jury is still out on.

 

lol... glad to be of assistance. My vision was from (or even in) Visual Basic (which isn't even really programming ). You would just define the sprite (ie- vertical size, shape, etc.) and playfield, give them colors and other stuff. You would then have to do a bunch of if...then statements such as "if player0 hits missle0 then..." and that sort of thing. You could then take that basic kernel code and begin playing with it in assembly.

 

The reason I was hoping for this is the (very excellent) tutorials Andrew wrote have put me on the cusp of actually being able to do something. I have a dodgeball game in mind that I've been "working on" since I joined the forum. I can draw the field, and I can use alien bill's code to make a sprite (and the movement) I want. The problem is that I can't seem to combine the two and get both loaded from tables. I know it's just my lack of understanding and can't find anything that explains it. I could probably just keep asking a million questions, but this (batariB) seems like a much more plausible option. Now I just have to learn basic.

 

Anyway, I was hoping to make a simple game with a simple tool, then move that code on and tweak it through assembly (probably with help of the pros at that point). I think this tool gives me that chance that I might otherwise not have. So while I can see it spawning a bunch of crap (pretty much what I think of the hacks section) I can also see it spawning 5-10 cart quality games a year, something that will never happen with assembly alone. The Popeye/Kangaroo hack as well as the Luigi's Lunch hack come to mind. I'm sure there are others as well.

 

And whether these games are cartable or not, I'm guessing everyone could pay to have their game put on cart if they really wanted to. In the end it is all for fun; the newbs should realize how their games are going to be percieved and the people with assembly games should hang their hat on the fact that their games will always be superior so they won't have to meddle with us lowly basic peeps if they choose not to. If egos are put aside and nobody takes themselves too seriously, I think this will be a monster step for the homebrew community (and not just Atari) as a whole.