Jeff Minter: over-rated?

[+kisrael]

This is from a recent Katamari Damacy thread:

Jeff Minter is always playing the thing.  In fact it's his words that first made me aware of the game!  That's enough for me!

 

It got me thinking...why is Jeff Minter so highly regarded?

 

Don't get me wrong, I like the guy, and I WANT to like the guy, but if it wasn't for his thing about Llamas and sheep...sometimes seeming to veer into the oddly almost sexual..would anyone know who he is?

 

I think, besides the Llamas, people like him because he's journaled about his experience, and a lot of people can relate and wanted to do the same thing... but it seems like his history is mostly Llama-themed ripoffs of other games, a very spiffy update to Tempest, and...well, something that seem to be done just about as well by Windows Media Player these days.

 

So, please argue and tell me why he deserves his great reputation, because I WANT to like the guy even more than I do now, but right now he seems like a decent coder, a nice chap who writes about pubbing and dromedary loveing, and a guy who has a knack for being associated with doomed systems.

[Bill Brasky]

Totally overrated IMO, and I'm a Jaguar fan. Tempest is probably my fav arcade game and played it in the arcade for years but T2K was the game I played the least. It just didn't feel anything like arcade Tempest to me or have that intesity where you got into the zone. Never understood why it was considered the Jag's flagship game. There were much better one's like Iron Soldier IMO. All the games he's made since the VIC-20 days are rip-off's of Defender, Robotron or Tempest. He's does have an attraction to developing for doomed systems: Konix multi-system, Jaguar, NUON, GameCube. How does this guy eat? He's like Dave Perry, milking his "fame" forever off of one old game.

Edited August 21, 2005 by Bill Brasky

[Gregory DG]

I think he's under-rated. He doesn't get enough recognition. Hardly anyone knows who he is, so how could he be overrated?

 

There's just something whimsical about his games. Sure, many of them are derivitave, but he makes them 100x better than they could ever have been before. Llamatron is a perfect example. You'd never see a toilet spewing out... erm... stuff in a game of Robotron!

 

And there's definitely something special about Tempest 2000. Some magic or energy that the Saturn and PSX versions lacked. His games are more than fun. I often get an adrenaline rush and a sense of strength from playing them. It's hard to describe really. But I surely never felt that way playing "yet another" Mario game...

[Mindfield]

He's highly regarded because he's written some of the most unique and fun games over the past 25 years or so. Sure, he's got a thing for ungulates ... some people are cat people, some are dog people, and Jeff ... well, Jeff is a llama person. I guess things are just a little different in Aberswyth. Regardless of any mammalian affectations, his games have been memorable and unarguably fun. He's probably the only guy I know who'd even think of writing a game about mowing the lawn -- and even make it fun. But his other titles -- Metagalactic Llamas, Gridrunner, Llamatron, Hardcore, T2K/D2K, and tons of others, have been some of the best twitchy shmups ever created. The man knows how to code like nobody's business, and he knows what making a fun game is all about -- wanting to come back and play it repeatedly.

 

I don't think he's overrated. He managed to create quite a following all on his own -- long before he was a larger commercial success.

[spacecadet]

I think he's totally overrated. There's another thread going on about "gaming gods" right now and I mentioned Shigeru Miyamoto and Gunpei Yokoi - guys who have created dozens of iconic games and hardware that's sold more than a hundred million units - and right afterwards somebody brought up Minter. It was just such a contrast, I immediately thought "man, that guy is not even in the same league." (I didn't say anything because it wasn't worth arguing, but as long as you're gonna come right out and ask if Minter's overrated...)

 

I mean give the guy credit for a few unique ideas, but the way his name is thrown around as if he's a modern-day Nolan Bushnell is just not proportionate to his accomplishments. I mean, here's his gameography:

 

C64 Classix (2005), Magnussoft Deutschland GmbH

Defender 2000 (1996), Atari Corporation

Tempest X3 (1996), Interplay

Tempest 2000 (1994), Atari Corporation

Llamatron: 2112 (1991), Llamasoft

Ancipital (1984), Llamasoft

Attack of the Mutant Camels (1983), Llamasoft

Attack of the Mutant Camels (HesWare) (1983), Hesware

Hover Bovver (1983), Llamasoft

Traxx (1983), Quicksilva

Gridrunner (1982), Human Engineered Software

 

A few cool games early in his career and then a bunch of updates to Tempest and Defender - good updates, but still, he didn't do the creative work on those. (I've seen people that actually think he created Tempest just because he did Tempest 2000 and Tempest X3.)

 

Just for contrast, this is Miyamoto's gameography:

 

Star Fox Assault (2005), Nintendo of Canada Ltd.

Custom Robo (2004), Nintendo Co., Ltd.

The Legend of Zelda: Four Swords Adventures (2004), Nintendo Co., Ltd.

The Legend of Zelda: The Minish Cap (2004), Nintendo Co., Ltd.

Mario Party 6 (2004), Nintendo Co., Ltd.

Mario Pinball Land (2004), Nintendo Co., Ltd.

Mario Power Tennis (2004), Nintendo Co., Ltd.

Mario vs. Donkey Kong (2004), Nintendo Co., Ltd.

Metal Gear Solid: The Twin Snakes (2004), Konami Digital Entertainment America

Paper Mario: The Thousand-Year Door (2004), Nintendo Co., Ltd.

Pikmin 2 (2004), Nintendo Co., Ltd.

1080º Avalanche (2003), Nintendo of Europe GmbH

F-Zero GX (2003), Nintendo Co., Ltd.

Kirby Air Ride (2003), Nintendo Co., Ltd.

The Legend of Zelda Collector's Edition (2003), Nintendo Co., Ltd.

Mario Golf: Toadstool Tour (2003), Nintendo of America Inc.

Mario Kart: Double Dash (2003), Nintendo Co., Ltd.

Mario & Luigi: Superstar Saga (2003), Nintendo Co., Ltd.

Mario Party 5 (2003), Nintendo of America Inc.

Mario Party-e (2003), Nintendo Co., Ltd.

Pokémon Colosseum (2003), The Pokémon Company

Disney's Magical Mirror Starring Mickey Mouse (2002), Nintendo Co., Ltd.

Doshin the Giant (2002), Nintendo Co., Ltd.

Eternal Darkness: Sanity's Requiem (2002), Nintendo of Canada Ltd.

Hamtaro: Ham Ham Heartbreak (2002), Nintendo Co., Ltd.

Hamtaro: Ham-Hams Unite! (2002), Nintendo Co., Ltd.

The Legend of Zelda: The Wind Waker (2002), Nintendo Co., Ltd.

Mario Party 4 (2002), Nintendo of Canada Ltd.

Metroid Prime (2002), Nintendo of America Inc.

Star Fox Adventures (2002), Nintendo of America Inc.

Super Mario Sunshine (2002), Nintendo Co., Ltd.

Kirby Tilt 'n' Tumble (2001), Nintendo Co., Ltd.

The Legend of Zelda: Oracle of Ages (2001), Nintendo Co., Ltd.

The Legend of Zelda: Oracle of Seasons (2001), Nintendo Co., Ltd.

Luigi's Mansion (2001), Nintendo Co., Ltd.

Mario Kart Super Circuit (2001), Nintendo Co., Ltd.

Pikmin (2001), Nintendo Co., Ltd.

Super Mario Advance (2001), Nintendo Co., Ltd.

Super Smash Bros.: Melee (2001), Nintendo Co., Ltd.

Wave Race: Blue Storm (2001), Nintendo Co., Ltd.

Excitebike 64 (2000), Nintendo Co., Ltd.

The Legend of Zelda: Majora's Mask (2000), Nintendo Co., Ltd.

Mario Party 3 (2000), Nintendo Co., Ltd.

Mario Tennis (2000), Nintendo Co., Ltd.

Mario Tennis (2000), Nintendo Co., Ltd.

Paper Mario (2000), Nintendo Co., Ltd.

Pokémon Stadium 2 (2000), Nintendo Co., Ltd.

Walt Disney's Alice in Wonderland (2000), Nintendo Co., Ltd.

Donkey Kong 64 (1999), Nintendo of America Inc.

Mario Golf (1999), Nintendo Co., Ltd.

Mario Party 2 (1999), Nintendo Co., Ltd.

Pokémon Stadium (1999), Nintendo Co., Ltd.

Super Mario Bros. Deluxe (1999), Nintendo Co., Ltd.

Super Smash Bros. (1999), Nintendo Co., Ltd.

1080º Snowboarding (1998), Nintendo Co., Ltd.

Esoteria (1998), Kirin Entertainments Inc.

F-Zero X (1998), Nintendo Co., Ltd.

The Legend of Zelda: Link's Awakening DX (1998), Nintendo Co., Ltd.

The Legend of Zelda: Ocarina of Time (1998), Nintendo Co., Ltd.

Mario Party (1998), Nintendo Co., Ltd.

Star Fox 64 (1997), Nintendo Co., Ltd.

Yoshi's Story (1997), Nintendo Co., Ltd.

Donkey Kong Country 3: Dixie Kong's Double Trouble! (1996), Nintendo Co., Ltd.

Kirby's Block Ball (1996), Nintendo Co., Ltd.

Mario Kart 64 (1996), Nintendo Co., Ltd.

PilotWings 64 (1996), Nintendo Co., Ltd.

Pokémon Blue (1996), Nintendo Co., Ltd.

Pokémon Red (1996), Nintendo Co., Ltd.

Star Wars: Shadows of the Empire (1996), Nintendo Co., Ltd.

Super Mario 64 (1996), Nintendo Co., Ltd.

Super Mario RPG: Legend of the Seven Stars (1996), Nintendo Co., Ltd.

Donkey Kong Country 2: Diddy's Kong Quest (1995), Nintendo Co., Ltd.

Donkey Kong Land (1995), Nintendo Co., Ltd.

Kirby's Dream Land 2 (1995), Nintendo Co., Ltd.

Super Mario World 2: Yoshi's Island (1995), Nintendo Co., Ltd.

Donkey Kong (1994), Nintendo Co., Ltd.

Donkey Kong Country (1994), Nintendo Co., Ltd.

EarthBound (1994), Nintendo Co., Ltd.

Stunt Race FX (1994), Nintendo Co., Ltd.

Kirby's Adventure (1993), Nintendo Co., Ltd.

The Legend of Zelda: Link's Awakening (1993), Nintendo Co., Ltd.

Star Fox (1993), Nintendo Co., Ltd.

Super Mario Kart (1992), Nintendo Co., Ltd.

Wave Race (1992), Nintendo Co., Ltd.

The Legend of Zelda: A Link to the Past (1991), Nintendo Co., Ltd.

F-Zero (1990), Nintendo Co., Ltd.

PilotWings (1990), Nintendo Co., Ltd.

Super Mario World (1990), Nintendo Co., Ltd.

Zelda II: The Adventure of Link (1987), Nintendo Co., Ltd.

The Legend of Zelda (1986), Nintendo Co., Ltd.

Super Mario Bros. (1985), Nintendo Co., Ltd.

 

And some of his best games (like the original Donkey Kong!) are not even on that list!

 

I could come up with a similar comparison for a whole bunch of game creators. The truth is there are a lot of game developers who have made as many and as creative games as Jeff Minter that you've probably never even heard of. It really should require something on the level of Miyamoto's output before you get to be a household name among game players; I don't feel like Minter's really deserved it.

[Gregory DG]

It shouldn't be about quantity. It should be about quality and creativity. Both Miyamoto and Minter have accomplished the same thing in that regard.

[Jess Ragan]

And exactly how many of the games in that list were actually PROGRAMMED by Shigeru Miyamoto? Miyamoto's involvement with many of those titles, especially the Pokemon games, was peripheral at best. On the other hand, Jeff Minter was DIRECTLY involved with the design of all the games in his own list, often writing every line of code himself.

 

I do think that, in classic gaming circles, Jeff Minter is overrated. He has a nasty habit of making flashy special effects a higher priority than gameplay (there's nothing quite like being blinded by a huge 1UP message that ultimately costs you the life you just earned...), and yes, he does have a tendency to crib from arcade classics like Centipede and Tempest. However, he's a talented game designer who actually codes every game that's accredited to him.

 

I would argue that Shiggy is MORE overrated than Jeff Minter, since most of the games that he "designed" were actually farmed out to teams of programmers, like Intelligent Systems, HAL Laboratory, and Game Freak. Anyone who tells you that Shigeru Miyamoto deserves most of the credit for Metroid Prime, Paper Mario, or Starfox Assault is deluding themselves.

 

JR

[Clint Thompson]

This is from a recent Katamari Damacy thread:

Jeff Minter is always playing the thing.  In fact it's his words that first made me aware of the game!  That's enough for me!

So, please argue and tell me why he deserves his great reputation, because I WANT to like the guy even more than I do now, but right now he seems like a decent coder, a nice chap who writes about pubbing and dromedary loveing, and a guy who has a knack for being associated with doomed systems.

915372[/snapback]

 

I think you answered part of your own question.

 

He's an excellent coder and he enjoys many of the things average everyday people do. He's a very cool guy overall and has done more then what was posted regarding the games list above.

 

Tempest 2000 is awesome and I feel this is the best version of Tempest there is currently. I have respect for someone willing to go out of the norm and create something addictivingly unique!

 

I look forward to his future work... can't wait to see what other goodies he brews up on the 360. Definately -not- over-rated at all.

[Bill Brasky]

It shouldn't be about quantity. It should be about quality and creativity. Both Miyamoto and Minter have accomplished the same thing in that regard.

915444[/snapback]

 

Exactly. Minter has neither quanity, nor creativity and the quality is debatable. I give Eugene Jarvis and Dave Theurer credit for Minter's "creativity". Minter just took their game ideas and created showy versions of them, often at the expense of gameplay(1UP). I'll take the original arcade Tempest and Defender any day over Minter's inferior versions.

[Great Hierophant]

I have thought about this as well. His games are often technical marvels of coding. I could never have expected something so fast as Gridrunner for the Commodore Vic-20. However, every game of his I have played suffer from a common problem, too much happens on the screen. The objects move so fast and become so many that its impossible to improve in the games.

 

More important is that he almost always seems to pick the more obscure platforms to write and optimize his games for. Gridrunner for the Vic-20 instead of the 64, Llamatron for the ST instead of the Amiga, Tempest 2000 for the Jaguar rather than the Super Nintendo, the Nuon for Tempest 3000 instead of the Playstation 2. Makes it hard to appreciate his games as he meant them to. And ever since Llamatron he has had a perverse inclination to make his shump shooters controllable by mouse only. Finally, his games often lack a professional polish to the whole package.

[Clint Thompson]

Lack of professional polish? I'm not sure how you mean that but I think (T2K for example) is very professional overall. Maybe his earlier games you are referring too?

[+uosipa llamxew]

I love twitch games. My favorite Jeff Minter game is Matrix on the Vic-20, but I also love Ancipital, Llamatron, light simulators, and of course Tempest 2k. Most of his games are fun, but have a humoristic side that you don't get with a lot of games (ie sheep power-ups, stealing lawn mowers, "I fart in your general direction!")

 

I admire the fact that Jeff speaks so fondly of sheep and animals - all things "fluffy". I love animals... in many ways I think that they are superior to humans... but that's another thread. I cried and sobbed when I heard Flossy died.

 

I think it's funny that like any other human, he has his own quirks and he's not afraid to admit as much in a humorous fashion.

 

I used to think Jeff was a god, but now I just think he's a great person with a unique point of view and someone I have a lot of common interests with. I've chatted with Jeff on a few occasions (in his IRC chatroom) and he seems to be totally down to earth... a really nice guy! I can't wait to try the curry recipe that Giles put online, and the two of them eat what seems to be a few times a week.

 

I've heard Jeff speak of Katamari on many occasions... I nearly fell over laughing when he told me about the surprised look on the giraffe face that he'd just sucked into his Katamari! This, and the testimony of many others, leads me to think that Katamari is a good choice of a birthday present for the kid... Ah who am I kidding, it's probably more for me, but who will know?!

 

Anyways, I'm rambling... I just got bit repeatedly by a crazy kitten who lodged itself in a far corner of my garage; I may have rabies! I need to shower and sleep. Nite all!

Edited August 21, 2005 by mojofltr

[Clint Thompson]

It'd be awesome to be able to hang out with'em for a day.... He's in the states these days or is he back home?

[Jess Ragan]

  Exactly. Minter has neither quanity, nor creativity and the quality is debatable. I give Eugene Jarvis and Dave Theurer credit for Minter's "creativity".

915459[/snapback]

 

Yet when Game Freak, Intelligent Designs, and HAL Laboratory design Nintendo's games, people are perfectly content to give Shigeru Miyamoto the credit for all their hard work. Isn't that kind of, you know, unfair?

 

JR

[+kisrael]

Hmm, thanks for the feedback...I think one thing I've heard of hints of here in his favor is that he's one of the last "one man shows" still kicking around. In a day and age of great big programming teams, it's mostly just him and sometimes a partner.

 

Incidentally, that's probably where some of his history with obscure systems is from...he's trying to find a niche not as dominated by big money/big teams projects.

 

I think he has done some interesting stuff, and maybe a"legend" but not a "god".

[Bill Brasky]

  Exactly. Minter has neither quanity, nor creativity and the quality is debatable. I give Eugene Jarvis and Dave Theurer credit for Minter's "creativity".

915459[/snapback]

 

Yet when Game Freak, Intelligent Designs, and HAL Laboratory design Nintendo's games, people are perfectly content to give Shigeru Miyamoto the credit for all their hard work. Isn't that kind of, you know, unfair?

 

JR

915487[/snapback]

 

 

You'll have to take that up with them. I'm not one of those cheerleaders for Miyamoto, praising everything he's done or been associated with as genius.

[Great Hierophant]

His biggest problem is that he became increasingly obscure in his choice of systems (at least with the originals and his ports often lack the same experience) and therefore makes it difficult for this games to find a wide audience.

 

Miyamoto is a visionary and thus he gets credit for the games created under his direction. He hasn't directed much of anything since Zelda: OoT for the Nintendo 64 and is a producer with Nintendo. Thus his greatest impact, which began with Donkey Kong back in 1981 to Zelda: OoT in 1998 was during the days when he actively took a role in game development. Now he is one of video games greatest icons and wields a considerable amount of influence in the industry. These days, small armies of people create games and (like in the movies) the directors obtain the most credit.

Edited August 21, 2005 by Great Hierophant

[+uosipa llamxew]

I do think that, in classic gaming circles, Jeff Minter is overrated. He has a nasty habit of making flashy special effects a higher priority than gameplay (there's nothing quite like being blinded by a huge 1UP message that ultimately costs you the life you just earned...), and yes, he does have a tendency to crib from arcade classics like Centipede and Tempest. However, he's a talented game designer who actually codes every game that's accredited to him.

 

I like colorful explosions and flashy particle effects! I like a game that plays fast and loud! I like that when you suck hardcore - the game taunts you; when you are playing an amazing game - the speakers scream orgasmicly and power-ups burst beautifully in your face! Jeff's games keep me coming back! I can start new and play a full game through and never worry about saving my game or finishing some quest. If I decide to not play the game for a few months, I can get back into the game as quickly as powering up the machine. In this sense, the games are quite reminiscent of the old 80s arcades, addictive enough to keep the player interested, but difficult enough that without some skill the player won't last much more then a few waves. These games are fun to watch from the sidelines. I kick back and admire the spiralling, morphing, bursting color effects and just chill... with the older games, it's hysterical to watch as your friends get their arse tromped by the computer in games like Hellgate or Matrix. And the humor: there are camels with lasers in their heads, sheep flying in space, strutting goats with amazing gravitational powers, sheepiezapper recharge weapons... the list goes on and on! Pure Entertainment!

 

Alluding back to the quoted post: You may lose a life because you were distracted by an exploding bonus - It's all a part of the game. I consider it another obstacle in the way of having my initials in the top slot of the highscore board. I don't feel like any of this compromises gameplay... not at all!

 

As far as cribbing off of classics such as Defender, Centipede, and Tempest... sure, Jeff borrows ideas and expands on them, but then so do most other game programmers (how many platform games are there? Sh'mups? First-Person shooters? RPG's?). The difference is that Jeff usually recreates these arcade-style games with larger than life effects while adding an element of his own flavor of sheepie humor to the mix.

 

I don't think Jeff's over-rated at all. Sure, he has quite a loyal cult-following of Llamasofties, but then he also hangs out online with the fans (or should I say "friends") and talks to them, shares ideas, talks about curry and sheep and regular every day things. How many game designers do you know who do this on a day to day basis (I'm also a fan of the Homebrewers here, but that's another tangent).

 

Anyways, I tend to ramble and so now I'm going to stop.

[n8littlefield]

I don't really think it's fair to compare Minter's work to Miyamoto's. Miyamoto is pretty much untouchable by other game designers, no-one else can lay claim to creating characters which have become so well loved and well known, gameplay that connects with all ages and genders, and continues to try new things at every turn. Minter has made some good games, but they tend to be shooters, and really cater to one audience.

 

I think I would akin Minter to an independant film maker. He does great things, but they are on a smaller scale than the "big boys" (meaning Miyamoto, Sid Meier, Will Wright, and a few others), and are aimed at a smaller audience. I think that comparisions between then is almost unfair given the differences.

[Uber Troll]

Minter is awesome and the only complaint I have of his work is that I think he has yet to master appropriately scaling difficulty in his games. They tend to start off easy get a little harder and then become almost impossible.

 

His graphic work is brilliant and I have huge amount of respect for people who craft the whole "widget" themselves.

[Lord Thag]

I think people admire Minter for two reasons:

 

1. His games are almost always fun, slightly quirky, and challenging

 

2. He's one of the last of the 'do-it-yourself' programmers, which is kind of looked back on as the 'golden age' of gaming.

 

I had never even heard of the guy until about six months ago when I score a Vic with Star Post and Gridrunner. A buddy mentioned that those were 'Jeff Minter' games. I was like 'Jeff who?' I then looked him up out of curiosity.

 

Still, those two games are my favorites on the system. His reputation as a good programmer is certainly deserved. As to a legend, well, that's up to posterity. The fact that he's being discussed in his own thread leads me to believe that he probably will be.

He may have programmed a lot of derivative games, but let's face it, 99% of the games that have come out in the last fifteen YEARS are derivative. Even Miyamoto does it, his genius comes in HOW he recreates things.

 

At the end of the day, it's how well you do your game that matters. Minter makes good games.

[ZylonBane]

I thought much more highly of Mr. Minter before Defender 2000 was released. Now that was a travesty.

 

Plus, he seems to have this mindset endemic to many English game coders that failure is fun.

[+uosipa llamxew]

If you don't know the pain of failure, how would you ever know the joy of success?

 

I don't really think it's fair to compare Minter's work to Miyamoto's.  Miyamoto is pretty much untouchable by other game designers, no-one else can lay claim to creating characters which have become so well loved and well known, gameplay that connects with all ages and genders, and continues to try new things at every turn.  Minter has made some good games, but they tend to be shooters, and really cater to one audience.

 

I think I would akin Minter to an independant film maker.  He does great things, but they are on a smaller scale than the "big boys" (meaning Miyamoto, Sid Meier, Will Wright, and a few others), and are aimed at a smaller audience.  I think that comparisions between then is almost unfair given the differences.

915755[/snapback]

 

Exactly! There are a lot of movies and movie producers that have the same cult following. Not everything is for everyone.

 

The only thing I'm not sure I agree with n8's post is: "I don't really think it's fair to compare Minter's work to Miyamoto's". Compare all you want... as far as I'm concerned it's a bit pointless - apples and oranges, if you don't mind a bit of cliche. Everyone has their own tastes and opinions. There really is no right and wrong here.

Edited August 21, 2005 by mojofltr

[joeybastard]

I don't think he's overrated nor underrated. I think his fame is well deserved but he's not the level of Miyamoto either. He's about right, IMHO.

 

I'll agree too that Tempest 2K on the Jag is vastly overrated as a game. It's good but that's it, it never achieved the greatness of the arcade for me. Then again, I found the Jag to be very uninteresting in general. I sold mine earlier this year.

[kevin242]

I DONT think Jeff Minter is over rated. He is the only reason many people

bought a Jaguar way back when.. and the only reason I miss it now!!! Infact I installed

Project tempest just to play Tempest 2k. It is a very fun game. Also Llamatron is

one of (if not the) most fun games I ever played on the ST. Sure both games are

remakes but he gives credit where credit is due and the thing about Minter is his games

are fun and made for gamers. I can understand where some of you are like "wtf

is so great about this guy" because you dont get the games or they dont appeal to you

but if you have ever owned a dying overlooked system and then got one of his superb

games to play you would understand...

 

Do I think he is up there with the creator(s) of Super Mario Bros, Legend of Zelda, Pac

Man, or Doom ? Hell NO!!!!! But he deserves his legendary status among Atari fans.

Edited August 22, 2005 by kevin242