Ultimate programming challenge? True 3-D games

[Scott Stilphen]

Amiga was working on developing VCS games (the Power Play system) that used those cheap red and blue 3-D glasses (from the company's Summer 83 CES literature). I don't know how far in development they were, or if this was all just vaporware.

 

I also recently learned (from a Jan 19, 1983 Wall Street Journal article) that Alan Miller (of Activision) spent about 2 months experimenting with this idea.

 

Is such a technique possible with older systems like the VCS?

[Adrian M]

But how effective would those games utilizing the red/blue glasses really be?

 

If you recall, the NES had 3D Worldrunner and Rad Racer, both of which used the red/blue 3D glasses technology. To this day, I swear I don't see anything 3D about those two games, they actually look like a brownish red flickering mess.

 

It certainly isn't as effective as the Sega Master System 3D glasses which actually pulled off the 3D effect successfully.

[Thomas Jentzsch]

If you limit the 3d-effects to the player missile/graphics and accept some flicker, I think something should be possible. But I don't know how complicated the maths are

 

And I don't think, that the result would be very good.

 

I have been experimenting with another way of "true" 3d, wireframe graphics. Perhaps one (not to soon) day I'll find the time and fun again to complete my demo. But I doubt, there is enough flexibility possible to make a whole game out of it.

 

BTW: In Germany we are more used to red/green glasses.

 

[ 02-21-2002: Message edited by: Thomas Jentzsch ]

[Scott Stilphen]

Perhaps Amiga was concentrating on making the game backgrounds appear in 3D? Which would be much easier to program I would think...

 

Adrian: some people can't "adapt" to using 3D glasses and such items as well as others, which has always been a problem with that effect.

 

Anyone remember the 3D Coke commercial during the Superbowl (about 10 years ago)? They used similar cheap glasses, except they weren't red & blue. I don't remember how they worked, or if you can even get similar ones now, but maybe they'd be easier to use and program for?

[StanJr]

Interesting Thomas. What is the reason that Germans have red/green 3d glasses, and America has red/blue? Is the effect different?

 

4-D Stan

[Thomas Jentzsch]

quote:

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Originally posted by StanJr:

Interesting Thomas. What is the reason that Germans have red/green 3d glasses, and America has red/blue? Is the effect different?

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I always thought you need complementary colors (like red and green) to get a nice B/W picture.

 

Perhaps the US version is more orange than red? Then my theory would work again.

 

I don't know if the effect is different, because I can't compare.

[Jeffy Arensmeyer]

Ahhh.... The Red/Blue debate. It's one of my favorites.

 

The whole idea is based upon creating a simulated image the your eyes can't "lock" on to, hence your brain gives up and considers it non-2-D. (Can I say that?)

 

Three factors totally destroy this theory:

 

• You must first exclude everyone that is colorblind

• You must exclude everyone that does not have 20/20 vision or has one eye that is a different prescription than the other

• You must accept that all other colors in the game are rendered useless now

 

Thanx, but I'll use the VirtualBoy to give me headaches.

 

ò¿ó

[StanJr]

We definitely have RED/blue. I would love to see these red/green glasses and see what the difference is. I'll swap you a pair for some red/blue ones.

 

5-D Stan

[Raccoon Lad]

I remember that coke commercial you mentioned, that commercial, and a cartoon called "zib zoolander" used the same type of 3d. It wasn't as 3d as traditional 3d is, those glasses had one darkened lense and one "brightened" yellow lense. the illusion of 3d happened whenever you would see moving objects, the ones travelling faster would seem closer IIRC. you can simulate those glasses by taking one lense out of a pair of sunglasses, but stationary and slow-moving things would produce no 3d. I might be wrong, but I'm pretty sure that's how it worked.

[Raccoon Lad]

there's also that 3d they use at Disneyland. They used it in Captain EO, and now in Honey I shrunk the audience, but I have absolutely no idea how that works, though finding out might be usefull in your quest.

[Paul Slocum]

At Disneyland they use polarizers (at 90 degree angles) in the glasses and the projector(s).

 

-Paul

[The Night Phantom]

It seems that in the early '80s (our kind of time period!) there were a number of 3-D feature films: Spacehunter: Adventures in the Forbidden Zone, Amityville 3-D, Friday the 13th Part 3, and Jaws 3-D all come to mind. I never went to see any of them. All of these were in color, and so I presume the different-colored-lenses trick wasn't used for them either. Perhaps they also used this same polarization trick? Or maybe there's some other technique afoot that's applicable to the VCS?

[Inky]

There was one called Comin' At You (which was just released on DVD complete with 3D Glasses). All those 3D movies used the Polarized lenses. About 10 years ago Fox broadcast the ROlling Stones Steel Wheels concert in 3D

 

Personally, I thought the 3D worked well.. and I have glasses and non 20/20 vision.

[Mindfield]

Colour anaglyphic images are possible; IIRC you simply split off the red to the left, the green to the right, and the blue somewhere in the middle, I think. (Or something like that, anyway) The brain would then "reconstruct" the colour-separate images, since both eyes are recieving all the ncessary colour input, into one simulated 3D colour image.

 

In any event, it's possible to do this on the 2600. Imagine, for example, doing Commando, or Friday the 13th, or Riddle of the Sphynx, to add simulated depth-of-field by providing more and more separation of the red/green elements as you got closer to the top of the screen (which would essentially be "further away" to the viewer) This could be used to great effect on side-view platformers where there's some up and down play as well as side-to-side (Double Dragon, for example -- yeah, I know it sucked hard, I'm just using the game style as an example)

 

There were a few vector demos on the Amiga that used anaglyphic glasses to give you a vector trip into space, as it were, and it worked to great effect; the colour wasn't perfect (it was still possible to see the faint offset lines of the lines that were supposed to be filtered by one lens) but it still worked quite well. There's no reason the VCS can't do this, although not with vectors.

[Lemmi]

Question:

What the hell does "IIRC" stand for?

 

i see it in alot of peoples posts and i have no clue what it means

[The Night Phantom]

quote:

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Originally posted by Lemmi:

What the hell does "IIRC" stand for?

---

 

“If I recall correctly”...if I recall correctly.

[Lemmi]

Thank you

Thank you

Thank you

 

now i can stop getting headaches trying to think of what it could stand for

[The Night Phantom]

quote:

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Originally posted by Inky:

There was one called Comin' At You

---

 

That one had slipped my mind. IIRC the title was more precisely Comin' at Ya!

[Inky]

I think there was a 3D movie called Treasure of the Four Crowns (It was pretty decent, except the fact there was only 3 crowns in the film..)

[Thomas Jentzsch]

quote:

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Originally posted by StanJr:

We definitely have RED/blue. I would love to see these red/green glasses and see what the difference is.

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They are simply green and red, what difference do you mean?

 

With the complementary nature of those colors, looking thru the glasses of one color makes all objects of the other complementary color become invisible (=black).

 

I just don't see how this works with red/blue because they aren't complementary.

 

BTW: That also works for people that are red/green blind, because the glasses are doing the filtering, not your brain.

[moycon]

I actually have several magazines from back in the 80's explaining the technique they used in the firms they were making (The one that stands out was Jaws-3d) As far as I know its the same tech they use in Captain EO. I remember from the articals that it was pretty expensive and required specific and special equipment. The camera would basically take two pictures of every frame and you needed a special projector...Or maybe even two projectors.

 

Here is a link that explains the the methods of both types of 3-d glasses.

 

Everything you need to know bout 3D

 

Thomas...It doesnt matter if the lens is blue or green both colors are similar enough to work.

 

I have varying results with the red/blue glasses I have one video...The Mask (from the 60's) where the effect is pretty decent...But I also have Cat Women on the Moon...And I cant hardly see the 3-d effect. The final one Robot Monster...Is half and half for me....Maybe it has to do with the way the film is processed to give it the 3d effect.

[Lost Monkey]

quote:

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Originally posted by moycon:

I have varying results with the red/blue glasses I have one video...The Mask (from the 60's) where the effect is pretty decent...

---

 

and "The Mask" is a black and white film... pretty freaky movie too...

[Simek]

My dad has only one eye, and claimed to see the 3d effect at the muppet show at disney world. Those didn't use red and blue glasses, but where clear. I doubt the 2600 has the ability to use those though.

[Channel 2]

Never knew The Mask and Robot Monster were originally 3D... I've got to see that. I guess that would explain the bubble machine and the wierd gestures.

 

Did Metalstorm: the Destruction of Jared-Syn use the polarized filters? It came out about that time, but when you see it on TV, some scenes look like cheap color seperated 3D.

[slapdash]

Simek: Er, technically, with one eye, your dad isn't seeing ANYTHING in 3D.

 

Now, forget the red/blue or red/green glasses, and the polarization trick isn't going to work on a TV...

 

But perhaps the SMS 3D goggles and or the Vectrex goggles (too rare though!) could be adapted to the 2600. In this case, you'd just draw a different screen every other frame, and sync the glasses up.

 

And the different screens might be relatively easy to work up if you could precalculate offsets for different depths. Like have three bytes in memory with offsets, and address the X position adding on those byte values for each of three depths. At least partial 3D without TOO much overheard.

 

Er, of course, I'm not an expert on drawing a screen on the 2600, so maybe this is more a Stellalist topic than an AtariAge topic...

 

But anyone else with more experience think it possible?